Dropsy caused by bacteria going internal? Please help

Questions summarized at the bottom for the lazy.

Flower had an external infection, possibly aeronomas, that I didn't treat properly, and it ended up getting under his scales.



This picture is from April 6th.

I've since managed to clear most of the external infection. He's been through about 2+ weeks of treatment, which included kanaplex, furan-2, baths with doxycycline + salts + methylene blue, and towards the end metroplex.

In the past 4-5 days, he's started to show signs of dropsy. He's pineconing. I think the bacteria worked it's way under his scales, I feel so bad I'm so mad I let this happen to him this is him just now, April 13th.



He's just like that because he's going after some food. He hasn't lost his appetite at all, but he rests most of the day now. I think it's spread to his kidneys, possibly made worse by the long antibiotic treatment



He rests like this most of the time, usually right up against the airstone. Starting to get hard for him to regulate his swim bladder. He still has a few white patches that are likely the route the bacteria took in. He breathes heavily, and will occasionally frantically swim to the surface way faster than should be possible. Otherwise he conserves energy. His aeration when this started was likely inadequate, but I've now got three airstones bubbling hard plus the Aquaclear20.

I've been feeding him discomed soaked on his food, but otherwise the last 2-3 days there's been carbon in his filter. What should I do now? I don't know how to help him get better. Should I continue giving him baths?

To summarize my questions:
How do I treat an internal bacterial (aeromonas?) infection causing dropsy?
Should I avoid certain meds if I suspect antibiotic caused some kidney damage? For how long?

 

there's not much that can be done for dropsy, I would keep doing salt baths and treating with kanaplex as it could help, but theres no guarantee that it will. once dropsy hits unfortunately most fish will pass hope he improves for you.

 

Spare the meds. Completely. The whole procedure has likely made it worse. Treating with that many meds, especially antibiotics, in just 2 weeks, only leads to multiresistant bacteria and a fish that has basically just gone through chemo.

I also think you are under the impression of some misconceptions about bacterial infections in fish.

Aeromonas are not the only bacteria that infect fish, most often it's actually a so-called unspecific bacterial infection, meaning any bacteria that were in the tank can be opportunistically using a weak immune system.
In many cases the bacterial infection is secondary and follows an untreated or unnoticed parasitosis or stressful conditions.
When dropsy occurs the infection is fully systemic, meaning it affects all parts of the fish. The symptom is a result of beginning kidney failure. Many meds can make this worse, especially antibiotics.
Baths are usually nonsense as well. If any people can use epsom salt baths, that only superficially help dropsy by using the osmotic pressure to draw the water that is accumulating inside the body cavity from the fish.

The first thing to do in case of dropsy is to do waterchanges. High volume (> 50%), high frequenzy (every 24-48h). Also lowering pH at least a bit (depending on the hardness) with IALs and alder cones, which should both be part of every aquarists personal fish pharmacy besides meds against parasites.

Next check if there is any parasite infection present, often dropsy might end automatically when this is addressed correctly.

If there is no sign of a primary infection and the dropsy-causing bacterial infection is all that can be identified, a week of the waterchange and tannins regimen can be enough to help. I have brought back several fish (no bettas, I don't keep any, but cichlids, tetras and catfish) from that this way. Still there is no guarantee. Addressed too late the kidney failure is complete and irreversable.

About antibiotics in aquaria please give this a read:
Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health Forum | 453975

And my personal opinion: This is a classic example of domestic betta strains nowerdays being weak of health. Investing any meds in treating a bacterial infection in bettas is overkill and unnecessary. Prevention is the best course, so keeping perfect conditions, quarantineing and fish from reputable sources are the best way to keep this from happening.

So, after looking at the patient here... honestly, put the fish out of its misery.

 

In my goldfish I've found a UV sterilizer to be helpful in preventing drospy cases. Hard to follow such a great post Macz!!

 

Spare the meds. Completely. The whole procedure has likely made it worse. Treating with that many meds, especially antibiotics, in just 2 weeks, only leads to multiresistant bacteria and a fish that has basically just gone through chemo.

I also think you are under the impression of some misconceptions about bacterial infections in fish.

Aeromonas are not the only bacteria that infect fish, most often it's actually a so-called unspecific bacterial infection, meaning any bacteria that were in the tank can be opportunistically using a weak immune system.
In many cases the bacterial infection is secondary and follows an untreated or unnoticed parasitosis or stressful conditions.
When dropsy occurs the infection is fully systemic, meaning it affects all parts of the fish. The symptom is a result of beginning kidney failure. Many meds can make this worse, especially antibiotics.
Baths are usually nonsense as well. If any people can use epsom salt baths, that only superficially help dropsy by using the osmotic pressure to draw the water that is accumulating inside the body cavity from the fish.

The first thing to do in case of dropsy is to do waterchanges. High volume (> 50%), high frequenzy (every 24-48h). Also lowering pH at least a bit (depending on the hardness) with IALs and alder cones, which should both be part of every aquarists personal fish pharmacy besides meds against parasites.

Next check if there is any parasite infection present, often dropsy might end automatically when this is addressed correctly.

If there is no sign of a primary infection and the dropsy-causing bacterial infection is all that can be identified, a week of the waterchange and tannins regimen can be enough to help. I have brought back several fish (no bettas, I don't keep any, but cichlids, tetras and catfish) from that this way. Still there is no guarantee. Addressed too late the kidney failure is complete and irreversable.

About antibiotics in aquaria please give this a read:
Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health Forum | 453975

And my personal opinion: This is a classic example of domestic betta strains nowerdays being weak of health. Investing any meds in treating a bacterial infection in bettas is overkill and unnecessary. Prevention is the best course, so keeping perfect conditions, quarantineing and fish from reputable sources are the best way to keep this from happening.

So, after looking at the patient here... honestly, put the fish out of its misery.

Do you really think there's nothing that can be done? I can't euthanize him.

I stopped antibiotics. I did an epsom salt bath and added some epsom salt to his tank but that's it.

I don't think the cause was parasitic. He's always had a weak immune system, possibly related to the tumors(?) against his gill plate. This started after I accidentally restricted the flow too much in his tank by putting a big decoration in front of the filter outflow. It started out as fin rot, which I tried to treat just by swabbing it off with mebromin before meds. It didn't work, spread to his body, then spread to his mouth/under a few of his scales. Most of the external infection is gone now.

It's probably completely my fault. I shouldn't have medicated him for so long. I just didn't know what to do. Nothing was helping. Parameters were always 0/0/.5>, pH got kinda screwy with the meds because my water out of the tap is pH 7.2 kH 20 gH 20 but I stabilized it with frequent water changes and microdoses of seachem acid and alkaline buffers.

So I really don't want to give up on him yet. Is there anything I can do to help him? Should I move him to a 1 gallon wide and shallow bowl so he can come up for air easier? Then I can do 70-100% water changes. He's in his tank right now, I've been keeping it really clean but it is planted with sand, so I'm sure it's far from sterile. I have a tiny filter I could put in it or just use an airstone and water changes. Not sure if that would be better. I know he loves his tank so it's less stressful maybe. Idk.

 

Do you really think there's nothing that can be done? I can't euthanize him.

I stopped antibiotics. I did an epsom salt bath and added some epsom salt to his tank but that's it.

I don't think the cause was parasitic. He's always had a weak immune system, possibly related to the tumors(?) against his gill plate. This started after I accidentally restricted the flow too much in his tank by putting a big decoration in front of the filter outflow. It started out as fin rot, which I tried to treat just by swabbing it off with mebromin before meds. It didn't work, spread to his body, then spread to his mouth/under a few of his scales. Most of the external infection is gone now.

It's probably completely my fault. I shouldn't have medicated him for so long. I just didn't know what to do. Nothing was helping. Parameters were always 0/0/.5>, pH got kinda screwy with the meds because my water out of the tap is pH 7.2 kH 20 gH 20 but I stabilized it with frequent water changes and microdoses of seachem acid and alkaline buffers.

So I really don't want to give up on him yet. Is there anything I can do to help him? Should I move him to a 1 gallon wide and shallow bowl so he can come up for air easier? Then I can do 70-100% water changes. He's in his tank right now, I've been keeping it really clean but it is planted with sand, so I'm sure it's far from sterile. I have a tiny filter I could put in it or just use an airstone and water changes. Not sure if that would be better. I know he loves his tank so it's less stressful maybe. Idk.

Honestly, in this case I believe early euthanasia will save an already stressed and weakened fish from enduring several pain filled days before an ultimate demise. I have been in your place and I wish someone would have told this to me.

It's so hard, but is the alternative any better? I've never had luck with drospy, never had a fish recover fully and live much longer. After this, even if the fish somehow pulls through, they usually are much weaker and more fragile for the rest of their lives because of the strong meds. Commonly secondary infections after secondary infections are barely survived until eventually it kills them.

Don't blame yourself. You didn't know. You tried your best, with the best interest of the fish in mind. Now you know a bit more and can possibly prevent other issues. Don't be discouraged, it's unfortunate, it can be very upsetting (It sure was for me) but you just gotta keep going.

 

Do you really think there's nothing that can be done? I can't euthanize him.

This is still your choice. I can't and won't make you do it. If you need a method that doesn't take lots of nerve, I can recommend something.

I stopped antibiotics. I did an epsom salt bath and added some epsom salt to his tank but that's it.

Keep it to salt baths if you have to. Epsom salt should not be added to the tank itself!

I don't think the cause was parasitic. He's always had a weak immune system, possibly related to the tumors(?) against his gill plate. This started after I accidentally restricted the flow too much in his tank by putting a big decoration in front of the filter outflow. It started out as fin rot, which I tried to treat just by swabbing it off with mebromin before meds. It didn't work, spread to his body, then spread to his mouth/under a few of his scales. Most of the external infection is gone now.

I see, the usual history of illnesses for a domestic betta.

It's probably completely my fault. I shouldn't have medicated him for so long. I just didn't know what to do. Nothing was helping. Parameters were always 0/0/.5>, pH got kinda screwy with the meds because my water out of the tap is pH 7.2 kH 20 gH 20 but I stabilized it with frequent water changes and microdoses of seachem acid and alkaline buffers.

(This may sound a bit callous now, please forgive me.)
I'm giving nobody any fault but the fishkeeping industry and the mentality it has instilled in many fishkeepers.
So for future events just keep in mind: Medication has to be targeted and only used when there is a clear diagnose.

Your tap doesn't sound bad if the units for hardness are ppm. You should rather have added IALs and alder cones to get pH to 6.5 and bacteria wouldn't have had any chance. Bettas in nature are used to low hardness and low pH and I found by talking to many keepers and breeders most domestic specimens do quite well in almost blackwater conditions. Chasing pH with buffers and acid was a mistake then, for sure. As it is almost always.
If the units for hardness were in °GH and °KH, though, the water was too hard for a betta anyway.

So I really don't want to give up on him yet. Is there anything I can do to help him? Should I move him to a 1 gallon wide and shallow bowl so he can come up for air easier? Then I can do 70-100% water changes. He's in his tank right now, I've been keeping it really clean but it is planted with sand, so I'm sure it's far from sterile. I have a tiny filter I could put in it or just use an airstone and water changes. Not sure if that would be better. I know he loves his tank so it's less stressful maybe. Idk.

I would make it as comfortable as possible. Keep it in the usual tank, just lower the waterline if necessary. This is only palliative care now.

Again with the sterile and clean... this is what kills fish in the first place. In an environment devoid of pathogens the immune system becomes weak and useless and is not able to fight anything. A fish tank has to have a certain amount of... let's say patina.

So all in all: Things happen, you have been led on a path many have been on, rethink your fishkeeping methods and approaches and carry on. That's probably the best advice I have for you now.

 

Spare the meds. Completely. The whole procedure has likely made it worse. Treating with that many meds, especially antibiotics, in just 2 weeks, only leads to multiresistant bacteria and a fish that has basically just gone through chemo.

I also think you are under the impression of some misconceptions about bacterial infections in fish.

Aeromonas are not the only bacteria that infect fish, most often it's actually a so-called unspecific bacterial infection, meaning any bacteria that were in the tank can be opportunistically using a weak immune system.
In many cases the bacterial infection is secondary and follows an untreated or unnoticed parasitosis or stressful conditions.
When dropsy occurs the infection is fully systemic, meaning it affects all parts of the fish. The symptom is a result of beginning kidney failure. Many meds can make this worse, especially antibiotics.
Baths are usually nonsense as well. If any people can use epsom salt baths, that only superficially help dropsy by using the osmotic pressure to draw the water that is accumulating inside the body cavity from the fish.

The first thing to do in case of dropsy is to do waterchanges. High volume (> 50%), high frequenzy (every 24-48h). Also lowering pH at least a bit (depending on the hardness) with IALs and alder cones, which should both be part of every aquarists personal fish pharmacy besides meds against parasites.

Next check if there is any parasite infection present, often dropsy might end automatically when this is addressed correctly.

If there is no sign of a primary infection and the dropsy-causing bacterial infection is all that can be identified, a week of the waterchange and tannins regimen can be enough to help. I have brought back several fish (no bettas, I don't keep any, but cichlids, tetras and catfish) from that this way. Still there is no guarantee. Addressed too late the kidney failure is complete and irreversable.

About antibiotics in aquaria please give this a read:
Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health Forum | 453975

And my personal opinion: This is a classic example of domestic betta strains nowerdays being weak of health. Investing any meds in treating a bacterial infection in bettas is overkill and unnecessary. Prevention is the best course, so keeping perfect conditions, quarantineing and fish from reputable sources are the best way to keep this from happening.

So, after looking at the patient here... honestly, put the fish out of its misery.

A deep bow mate. Applause as well

 

A deep bow mate. Applause as well

I ended up euthanizing him.. he's in a lot of clove oil right now, has been for about 20 minutes. Pretty sure it knocked him out right away. Do you know if the ethanol/alcohol at the end is necessary? I don't have either, I have some strawberry gin or 70% iso but that's about it.

This is still your choice. I can't and won't make you do it. If you need a method that doesn't take lots of nerve, I can recommend something.



Keep it to salt baths if you have to. Epsom salt should not be added to the tank itself!



I see, the usual history of illnesses for a domestic betta.



(This may sound a bit callous now, please forgive me.)
I'm giving nobody any fault but the fishkeeping industry and the mentality it has instilled in many fishkeepers.
So for future events just keep in mind: Medication has to be targeted and only used when there is a clear diagnose.

Your tap doesn't sound bad if the units for hardness are ppm. You should rather have added IALs and alder cones to get pH to 6.5 and bacteria wouldn't have had any chance. Bettas in nature are used to low hardness and low pH and I found by talking to many keepers and breeders most domestic specimens do quite well in almost blackwater conditions. Chasing pH with buffers and acid was a mistake then, for sure. As it is almost always.
If the units for hardness were in °GH and °KH, though, the water was too hard for a betta anyway.



I would make it as comfortable as possible. Keep it in the usual tank, just lower the waterline if necessary. This is only palliative care now.

Again with the sterile and clean... this is what kills fish in the first place. In an environment devoid of pathogens the immune system becomes weak and useless and is not able to fight anything. A fish tank has to have a certain amount of... let's say patina.

So all in all: Things happen, you have been led on a path many have been on, rethink your fishkeeping methods and approaches and carry on. That's probably the best advice I have for you now.

Hey I appreciate what you're saying and did take your advice, but honestly you could be a little less harsh. It's completely valid, but time and place man. This is a thread about my betta dying, like many others who've kept bettas he was my first fish and the reason I got into the hobby. I know that you meant well, but please be sensitive to others who might not be as experienced as you. Thank you anyways though, I got Flower before I knew how badly inbred bettas are or I wouldn't have gotten him, but I appreciate the practical advice and such even though I didn't respond to anything in particular I took it all in and will reread later. Just really sad right now.

 

I ended up euthanizing him.. he's in a lot of clove oil right now, has been for about 20 minutes. Pretty sure it knocked him out right away. Do you know if the ethanol/alcohol at the end is necessary? I don't have either, I have some strawberry gin or 70% iso but that's about it.


Hey I appreciate what you're saying and did take your advice, but honestly you could be a little less harsh. It's completely valid, but time and place man. This is a thread about my betta dying, like many others who've kept bettas he was my first fish and the reason I got into the hobby. I know that you meant well, but please be sensitive to others who might not be as experienced as you. Thank you anyways though, I got Flower before I knew how badly inbred bettas are or I wouldn't have gotten him, but I appreciate the practical advice and such even though I didn't respond to anything in particular I took it all in and will reread later. Just really sad right now.

Sorry you had to do this Fae and sorry for your fish.

Personally I think MacZ wasn't harsh or something but I am aware the way we Europeans communicate about these issues may somehow give that impression.
MacZ allready answered in a way I would have tried to.

That's why often start a post telling it isn't meand to be rude or harsh. Think it is more direct (not saying it is always better hahaha) than in other parts of the world.

Also we are allready are a bit over the point of believe in antibiotics. We can't get them for years and withness an over- and misuse but seldom with the wanted result.

 

Sorry you had to do this Fae and sorry for your fish.

Personally I think MacZ wasn't harsh or something but I am aware the way we Europeans communicate about these issues may somehow give that impression.
MacZ allready answered in a way I would have tried to.

That's why often start a post telling it isn't meand to be rude or harsh. Think it is more direct (not saying it is always better hahaha) than in other parts of the world.

Also we are allready are a bit over the point of believe in antibiotics. We can't get them for years and withness an over- and misuse but seldom with the wanted result.

I know it wasn't meant to be rude, sorry I'm kind of emotional right now so I was just trying to say exactly what I was thinking which in hindsight probably won't help me conversate. I do appreciate the European bluntness on most days, but I'm a pretty sensitive soul so I can take it personally if I'm not careful.

Yes I'll definitely be more careful with antibiotics in the future. I think Flower didn't really stand a chance anyway, which sucks, but the meds definitely didn't help.

Also sorry, to be clear... Do you know if I need to do anything else to euthanize him? He's been in about 4ml clove oil/250ml water with a airstone for about 40 minutes now, do I need to add alcohol?

 

I know it wasn't meant to be rude, sorry I'm kind of emotional right now so I was just trying to say exactly what I was thinking which in hindsight probably won't help me conversate. I do appreciate the European bluntness on most days, but I'm a pretty sensitive soul so I can take it personally if I'm not careful.

Yes I'll definitely be more careful with antibiotics in the future. I think Flower didn't really stand a chance anyway, which sucks, but the meds definitely didn't help.

Also sorry, to be clear... Do you know if I need to do anything else to euthanize him? He's been in about 4ml clove oil/250ml water with a airstone for about 40 minutes now, do I need to add alcohol?

No you don't need alcohol or somethibg.
Cloveoil does the nasty job

 

Hey I appreciate what you're saying and did take your advice, but honestly you could be a little less harsh. It's completely valid, but time and place man. This is a thread about my betta dying, like many others who've kept bettas he was my first fish and the reason I got into the hobby. I know that you meant well, but please be sensitive to others who might not be as experienced as you. Thank you anyways though, I got Flower before I knew how badly inbred bettas are or I wouldn't have gotten him, but I appreciate the practical advice and such even though I didn't respond to anything in particular I took it all in and will reread later. Just really sad right now.

I'm really sorry if I was going a bit too far.
(There might be a bit of the cultural difference and me on some days being a bit less empathetic than on others playing into it, but that both is only an explanation and not an apology for my behaviour.)

If I can make it up to you somehow by giving advice or help out in the future just say something, allright?