Did I kill my WCMM with unheated tank?

[minnowmere]

We use space heaters as furnace blew and can't afford new one. Same last winter, too. I have a small suction heater for a 5 gall tank that I used off and on last year. By off and on, I mean that since it doesn't have a temp gauge I would plug it in for about 20-45 mins at a time and then unplug it during colder westher. Minnows did o.k.until after winter, when suddenly 2 died. It even got down to around 18 degrees a few nights and obviously I couldn't stay up all night unplugging and plugging in the heater, so I'd just leave the space heater on, but the space heater isn't close to tank.
Anyway a few nights ago it got down to 30 degress outside.Again I had space heater on.A golden one died.I think I had had it about 6 mos. I then plugged in the heater like I used to in case that was the problem. The next day another died. (not a golden, a regular. I definitely had had this one longer; it's hard to tell because of course there have been babies along the way.
On various forums I have read that WCMM can exist as low as 4 degrees, but other sites say 50-72 degrees, others say 54-72 degrees.. And on this site one woman said she kept hers outdoors. My house was probably at least 45 degrees when it was 30 degrees outside overnigjht, and probably more bc of space heater. So I really don't think that could have killed fish. I just cleaned tank thoroughly and it really wasn't that dirty.
What is everyone else's experience? Thanks!

 

[Redshark1]

To keep fish you need a heater with a thermostat that regulates the temperature and keeps it stable. That is, unless your ambient room temperature is suitable and not susceptible to wild fluctuations.

These fish did well for me at lower temperatures of 60F to 70F so I put them outside in summer where they thrived in my water butt which was full of daphnia and fly larvae.

To keep fish it is important to avoid extremes of temperature and to keep them within their natural range. Sometimes the higher figures quoted for their natural range are for the breeding season and not for all year round maintenance.

 

[BlueRaccoon]

We use space heaters as furnace blew and can't afford new one. Same last winter, too. I have a small suction heater for a 5 gall tank that I used off and on last year. By off and on, I mean that since it doesn't have a temp gauge I would plug it in for about 20-45 mins at a time and then unplug it during colder westher. Minnows did o.k.until after winter, when suddenly 2 died. It even got down to around 18 degrees a few nights and obviously I couldn't stay up all night unplugging and plugging in the heater, so I'd just leave the space heater on, but the space heater isn't close to tank.
Anyway a few nights ago it got down to 30 degress outside.Again I had space heater on.A golden one died.I think I had had it about 6 mos. I then plugged in the heater like I used to in case that was the problem. The next day another died. (not a golden, a regular. I definitely had had this one longer; it's hard to tell because of course there have been babies along the way.
On various forums I have read that WCMM can exist as low as 4 degrees, but other sites say 50-72 degrees, others say 54-72 degrees.. And on this site one woman said she kept hers outdoors. My house was probably at least 45 degrees when it was 30 degrees outside overnigjht, and probably more bc of space heater. So I really don't think that could have killed fish. I just cleaned tank thoroughly and it really wasn't that dirty.
What is everyone else's experience? Thanks!

Are you camping or living off the grid? I've never heard of anyone keep their house so cold. Update: I apologize. I reread it and see you don't have a furnace right now.

I mean it could also be quick changes in temperature causing the problem also. From what you are saying it sounds like it fluctuates a lot.

They probably can handle some low temps, but it still needs to be pretty stable. Maybe you can get a heater that has a range. And then set it to a lower temperature it can more easily keep up with in the cold.

How much water are you dealing with?

 

[fishywoo]

Very sorry you're having difficulty. I know this isn't an answer to your question and I don't know where you live, but maybe try looking looking around for programs that can help you with your furnace? Not sure if that's ok to suggest, and I don't fully understand the situation, but sometimes there's a lot of help available that is not well known unless you look around for it and ask. Having stable temperatures inside will be good for you and your fish.

 

[emeraldking]

We use space heaters as furnace blew and can't afford new one. Same last winter, too. I have a small suction heater for a 5 gall tank that I used off and on last year. By off and on, I mean that since it doesn't have a temp gauge I would plug it in for about 20-45 mins at a time and then unplug it during colder westher. Minnows did o.k.until after winter, when suddenly 2 died. It even got down to around 18 degrees a few nights and obviously I couldn't stay up all night unplugging and plugging in the heater, so I'd just leave the space heater on, but the space heater isn't close to tank.
Anyway a few nights ago it got down to 30 degress outside.Again I had space heater on.A golden one died.I think I had had it about 6 mos. I then plugged in the heater like I used to in case that was the problem. The next day another died. (not a golden, a regular. I definitely had had this one longer; it's hard to tell because of course there have been babies along the way.
On various forums I have read that WCMM can exist as low as 4 degrees, but other sites say 50-72 degrees, others say 54-72 degrees.. And on this site one woman said she kept hers outdoors. My house was probably at least 45 degrees when it was 30 degrees outside overnigjht, and probably more bc of space heater. So I really don't think that could have killed fish. I just cleaned tank thoroughly and it really wasn't that dirty.
What is everyone else's experience? Thanks!

WCMMs can withstand much lower temps. I keep them as well and yes, they still thrive at 5 degrees Celsius at my place. And I'm keeping them for many years now.
You need to know that WCMMs are not tropical fish. They come from cold waters (high altitudes). So, a site that tells differntly doesn't know what they are talking about. So, if you've got 18°C, it shouldn't bother them at all. So, if they've died, the cause must be something else.

Even those fluctuations in temperature is something that shouldn't bother them. At my place they are used to such fluctuations if we compare day and night temperature. So, it's not of an issue to have an unstable temperature.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

If all you have is the minnows, I would just take the heater out of the tank.
I don't know were you live, but can you type in Google that you need help with your heating? There should be government programs to help. Sorry about your heating and lack of money, I wish there was something I could do to help.

 

[minnowmere]

Thank you Red, Blue, and Fishy! Ok so yes it would be great to have a furnace, but in the meantime we have managed w/space heaters.We're not in the midwest; temps are usually 30-45 at night, 38-53 during day, winter. We always have a few days where it does get down to like 17-24 degrees. That's outside. Space heater of course makes things warmer inside and house decently insulated. So not a lot of huge fluctuations and it's my understanding that fish are used to variations in nighttime, day temps.
10-gallon tank and several live plants, but I really only fill up to 5 gallons, max. 3 WCMM left.
I used to have a fancier heater and I think it killed one of my fish. The other thing is is that if the power goes out the temp would suddenly plunge. We do not have a generator. Lusckily last winter power never went out. It seems to me that if it does it's better for fish to be acclimatized.
My main ? is this issue of the lowest temp for WCMM. As I mentioned above I've seen various ranges. I have a thermometer I can't find and will buy a new one in a few days.
The little heater I have doesn't heat up super quickly; it does turn itself off I believe but I'm not sure at what point. I just tested with my finger and after 10 mins there was a slight diff in temp between right next to the heater and at other end of tank but not huge.
I have a few other random ? I will just get out here and maybe should put in a new post. First, I read on another site that can boil driftwood 20 mins in h20 and use as decorations. I got rocks, driftwood at beach but I am really unsure. I think I would boil it like 2 hrs.Any experience on this? At the pet store there are these weird plastic decorations that cost like $30 and aren't natural.
Also, I've always fed mine frozen bloodworms w beta flakes every 3 days. I've read they like vegetables. Does anyone feed them little bits of veggies and which veggies? thanks!

 

[Fishfur]

Thank you Red, Blue, and Fishy! Ok so yes it would be great to have a furnace, but in the meantime we have managed w/space heaters.We're not in the midwest; temps are usually 30-45 at night, 38-53 during day, winter. We always have a few days where it does get down to like 17-24 degrees. That's outside. Space heater of course makes things warmer inside and house decently insulated. So not a lot of huge fluctuations and it's my understanding that fish are used to variations in nighttime, day temps.
10-gallon tank and several live plants, but I really only fill up to 5 gallons, max. 3 WCMM left.
I used to have a fancier heater and I think it killed one of my fish. The other thing is is that if the power goes out the temp would suddenly plunge. We do not have a generator. Lusckily last winter power never went out. It seems to me that if it does it's better for fish to be acclimatized.
My main ? is this issue of the lowest temp for WCMM. As I mentioned above I've seen various ranges. I have a thermometer I can't find and will buy a new one in a few days.
The little heater I have doesn't heat up super quickly; it does turn itself off I believe but I'm not sure at what point. I just tested with my finger and after 10 mins there was a slight diff in temp between right next to the heater and at other end of tank but not huge.
I have a few other random ? I will just get out here and maybe should put in a new post. First, I read on another site that can boil driftwood 20 mins in h20 and use as decorations. I got rocks, driftwood at beach but I am really unsure. I think I would boil it like 2 hrs.Any experience on this? At the pet store there are these weird plastic decorations that cost like $30 and aren't natural.
Also, I've always fed mine frozen bloodworms w beta flakes every 3 days. I've read they like vegetables. Does anyone feed them little bits of veggies and which veggies? thanks!

I prefer to get information on the range of parameters from a site like Seriouslyfish.com, because virtually all of their data comes from biological field studies.

Tanichthys albonubes – White Cloud Mountain Minnow (Aphyocypris pooni) — Seriously Fish

About this species they say the following;

Quote:
Temperature: This species is subject to seasonal temperature fluctuations in nature and is most comfortable between 14 – 22 °C.

Permanent exposure to warmer conditions is likely to result in a shortened lifespan and in many countries or well-insulated homes it’s best-maintained without artificial heating year-round.


In tests the wild fish from Hainan Island showed a reduced tolerance to cooler temperatures compared with tank-bred specimens, presumably due to their more southerly, i.e., tropical, distribution.

pH: 6.0 – 8.5

Hardness: 90 – 357 ppm “Unquote

14C = 57.2F to 22C = 71.6F.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

So at 17 degrees, is the tank freezing over?

At these temperatures, fish go into a low metabolism mode, I wouldnt be feeding anything at this temp.

 

[FishDin]

First, I read on another site that can boil driftwood 20 mins in h20 and use as decorations. I got rocks, driftwood at beach but I am really unsure. I think I would boil it like 2 hrs.Any experience on this? At the pet store there are these weird plastic decorations that cost like $30 and aren't natural.

Everyone has there own approach. I rinse wood, but don't boil it. I sometimes use a brush to remove any loose debris or flaking wood. I think boiling will help it sink, but I've never done it.

Same for rocks. I just rinse and scrub if needed. Some rocks can explode if boiled.

 

[minnowmere]

Thank you, Emerald, No Room! Just saw your replies now. Emerald, my temps are Fahren; 5 Celc = 41 Fahren. And, yes, the night before my first fish died, it was 30 deg. F outside, so I'm sure inside it had to be at least 41F. (Several sites I've looked at estimate that diffs in temps betw outside and indoor unheated reasonably insulated houses are about 20 deg; so even if it were only 10 degrees diff. still it would be equiv to around 40 Fahren).
But, you're right, it had to be something. And it's not as if fish were used to living in a 70 deg tank; they were used to an unheated tank. I do use the carbon and gravel in a little bag as a kind of supplemental tank cleaner and that had not been changed in a few months. There are at least 6 fairly lg.live plants, however. And I do change at least 1 lg starbuck's cup of h20 every day. And there are these Indian leaves you can put in to condition the tank h20 and I hadn't put one of those in in awhile. Maybe I gave them a bit more of the fish flakes than usual and they ate too much?
I just feel so guilty!
No room, we are supposedly signed up for a govmt program, but can't get any response from anyone. All the other programs are for people who make almost no $ whatsoever. If anyone has replaced a furnace for less than $7k -- gas -- and knows some wonderful cheap way to do it, that would be great to know. All the quotes last year I rec'd were in the $7k range. A friend's furnace motor recently blew and they are also using space heaters while they wait for their son to replace. Of course, that's just a motor and w/us the element is fried.Son can do work himself and ordered for $250 on i-net but co. would have charged $2500.
Thanks

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

As temp goes down, feeding amounts must also go down, especially as fish immune system also lowers. Cold temp is an opportunity for many naturally occuring pathogens to take over.

That said, 5 - 10g is a bit small to endure big temp swings. I recommend at least 30g if it gets to freezing temps

 

[Fishfur]

So at 17 degrees, is the tank freezing over?

At these temperatures, fish go into a low metabolism mode, I wouldnt be feeding anything at this temp.

Water freezes at 0C or 32F so I think the -17 degrees was referring to outside temperatures.

 

[Rummynose27]

I think the fish are fine if the temperature stays above freezing. Limit feeding and stop changing the temperature so much with the heaters. One or two might not make it, but with WCMM I would be very surprised if the vast majority didn't make it.

 

[emeraldking]

So at 17 degrees, is the tank freezing over?

At these temperatures, fish go into a low metabolism mode, I wouldnt be feeding anything at this temp.

WCMMs metabolism will go low at more lower temps but not yet at 17 degrees Celsius. At such a temperature they will still eat and swim lively. The temperature where the metabolism of a fish will go down, depends on what kind of fish we're dealing with. So, one can not state the remark you've made for all fish.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

WCMMs metabolism will go low at more lower temps but not yet at 17 degrees Celsius. At such a temperature they will still eat and swim lively. The temperature where the metabolism of a fish will go down, depends on what kind of fish we're dealing with. So, one can not state the remark you've made for all fish.

This is 17F not Celsius...so about -8 C

 

[fishywoo]

Thank you Red, Blue, and Fishy! Ok so yes it would be great to have a furnace, but in the meantime we have managed w/space heaters.We're not in the midwest; temps are usually 30-45 at night, 38-53 during day, winter. We always have a few days where it does get down to like 17-24 degrees. That's outside. Space heater of course makes things warmer inside and house decently insulated. So not a lot of huge fluctuations and it's my understanding that fish are used to variations in nighttime, day temps.
10-gallon tank and several live plants, but I really only fill up to 5 gallons, max. 3 WCMM left.
I used to have a fancier heater and I think it killed one of my fish. The other thing is is that if the power goes out the temp would suddenly plunge. We do not have a generator. Lusckily last winter power never went out. It seems to me that if it does it's better for fish to be acclimatized.
My main ? is this issue of the lowest temp for WCMM. As I mentioned above I've seen various ranges. I have a thermometer I can't find and will buy a new one in a few days.
The little heater I have doesn't heat up super quickly; it does turn itself off I believe but I'm not sure at what point. I just tested with my finger and after 10 mins there was a slight diff in temp between right next to the heater and at other end of tank but not huge.
I have a few other random ? I will just get out here and maybe should put in a new post. First, I read on another site that can boil driftwood 20 mins in h20 and use as decorations. I got rocks, driftwood at beach but I am really unsure. I think I would boil it like 2 hrs.Any experience on this? At the pet store there are these weird plastic decorations that cost like $30 and aren't natural.
Also, I've always fed mine frozen bloodworms w beta flakes every 3 days. I've read they like vegetables. Does anyone feed them little bits of veggies and which veggies? thanks!

I just boiled my wood for one hour in a pot with a lid. That should be enough. (I got the wood online for a steal and those were the directions). Boiling water for an hour will also surely remove any life forms that could've been in it. It will remove tannins and help it sink too.

Thank you, Emerald, No Room! Just saw your replies now. Emerald, my temps are Fahren; 5 Celc = 41 Fahren. And, yes, the night before my first fish died, it was 30 deg. F outside, so I'm sure inside it had to be at least 41F. (Several sites I've looked at estimate that diffs in temps betw outside and indoor unheated reasonably insulated houses are about 20 deg; so even if it were only 10 degrees diff. still it would be equiv to around 40 Fahren).
But, you're right, it had to be something. And it's not as if fish were used to living in a 70 deg tank; they were used to an unheated tank. I do use the carbon and gravel in a little bag as a kind of supplemental tank cleaner and that had not been changed in a few months. There are at least 6 fairly lg.live plants, however. And I do change at least 1 lg starbuck's cup of h20 every day. And there are these Indian leaves you can put in to condition the tank h20 and I hadn't put one of those in in awhile. Maybe I gave them a bit more of the fish flakes than usual and they ate too much?
I just feel so guilty!
No room, we are supposedly signed up for a govmt program, but can't get any response from anyone. All the other programs are for people who make almost no $ whatsoever. If anyone has replaced a furnace for less than $7k -- gas -- and knows some wonderful cheap way to do it, that would be great to know. All the quotes last year I rec'd were in the $7k range. A friend's furnace motor recently blew and they are also using space heaters while they wait for their son to replace. Of course, that's just a motor and w/us the element is fried.Son can do work himself and ordered for $250 on i-net but co. would have charged $2500.
Thanks

Any program that doesn't respond I would call back once a day until you get an answer or estimate on how long you should wait for something to be processed. You never know if they're going to say, oh well we needed this additional paper and never got it, but they never told you. Or someone misplaced something. So much room for error or miscommunication. Best to remind them that you're there, check if there's anything else you need to do, and don't let them forget you.

 

[emeraldking]

This is 17F not Celsius...so about -8 C

Sorry, my mistake...

 

[minnowmere]

Hi want to thank all who have replied and just to clarify the 17 degrees is fahrenheit and outside and last winter just a few nights and they survived that with heater on and off. So inside it would have been at least 30 degrees and probably more like 40-50 degrees.I appreciate they're most comfortable above 57.2 degrees but I am really still wondering what the minimum is - per answer above, at least 41 degrees Fahren (5 celcius). more later!thx!