Your thoughts on prime. Is it a myth?

Frank the Fish guy posted this in a thread I made about myths and to be honest I still believed this one. Reading what he said makes sense to me.

Frankthefishguy it does make me wonder if I was getting decieved by seachem on purpose. I will have to do math but prime is very concentrated I thought it was cheapest due to its concentration? Again I haven't done math because I believed I needed prime. Update I did math below...

What are y'alls thoughts on this?

Here is his post......

Myth: Seachem Prime detoxifies ammonia and does not increase the time to cycle a tank.

What I have come to understand: Ammonia levels at 1 ppm are not toxic to fish provided that the pH is not high (above 8.0). So when we have a fish in cycle, or ammonia spike, and dose prime, we credit Prime for making the fish survive when in fact they would have been fine without it.

The fact that Prime claims it only works up to 1 ppm ammonia, and the fact that the ammonia still registers on a chemical test means that there is no observable effect of Prime on our fish or chemistry, other than it does eliminate chlorine/chloramine like other water conditions do (that don't claim to work on ammonia).

I have recently cycled a few tanks and found that Prime increases the time to cycle the tank. All the tanks where I added nothing achieved a full cycle sooner.

I don't have chlorine in my water since I have a well. I have gotten rid of all of my Prime as it does nothing for me.

I believe Seachem is being intentionally deceptive and therefore I have gotten rid of all of my other Seachem products as well.

 

So prime doesn't work when it comes to detoxifying the 3 forms of nitrogen? And stability isn't a real bacterial supplement? ****...

...and Excel doesn't add any carbon into the water that plants can use, and Matrix is just pumice stone that does not do anything for Nitrates, and Flourish is a bottle of dilute trace chemicals that have no effect...

Snake oil. Don't propagate it.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Yes, 40 mL of Prime into a 10 gal tank at ~80 F:

View attachment 725380

And I'm at nearly 6,000' elevation.

Thank you for doing that Dave. That is comforting at least.

Since we seem to have worked out the chemistry, I would like to know how much Prime it would take to move the needle 2 ppm (from 6 to 4 ppm) in a 10 gallon tank with no aeration. That was 76 milligrams of free 02 to be removed.

I am wondering if in your test the oxygen was being replaced rapidly from the air, so that we were really seeing a fight between the rate that oxygen was being removed vs the rate that oxygen was coming back in?

I have some sealed barrels that I could use, and a big bottle of Prime that I need to throw any away. Perhaps I could do that test. Maybe have to start a new thread for that one.

I don't have an 02 meter, but I use the Sera 02 liquid test instead. It is unambiguous when the color moves 2 pmm. It's a great test actually.

I am just looking for an estimate of how much Prime we are talking about here?

 

my thoughts on prime is "use SAFE instead" lasts forever

 

I am wondering if in your test the oxygen was being replaced rapidly from the air, so that we were really seeing a fight between the rate that oxygen was being removed vs the rate that oxygen was coming back in?

Wouldn't that resemble what happens in an aquarium though? You could do a sealed barrel to prove it depletes oxygen, but if the aquarium environment replenishes at a similar rate then the impact isn't as large.

 

So prime doesn't work when it comes to detoxifying the 3 forms of nitrogen? And stability isn't a real bacterial supplement? ****...

Prime does work in my opinion and I like stability lok

 

The reason I recommend Prime over other conditioners is because it is designed to change the ammonia to something that is safer for the fish. I don't know what that something is. At one point I decided to trust that this product does what it is designed to do.

I was the same way too. It hurts to realize you have been deceived. There is a certain amount of denial that we must get through.

You and I perhaps are trusting souls. Unfortunately there are sharks that take advantage of us. We must learn that is our failing not theirs. They are by their nature, sharks.

 

Prime does work in my opinion and I like stability lok

I used stability and it cycled my tank in 2 weeks and a half but I thought maybe I got lucky. I used prime while I was cycling the tank and the only fish that died were 2 female guppies that had internal parasites. My neons lived through the cycle and so did my male guppy. I dont know how much it helps but I can't see how so many fish YouTubers use the products and claim they work aswell but then they don't actually work. I may be wrong though but who knows.

 

I used stability and it cycled my tank in 2 weeks and a half but I thought maybe I got lucky. I used prime while I was cycling the tank and the only fish that died were 2 female guppies that had internal parasites. My neons lived through the cycle and so did my male guppy. I dont know how much it helps but I can't see how so many fish YouTubers use the products and claim they work aswell but then they don't actually work. I may be wrong though but who knows.

The only fish I ever lost were extremely sick rescues from the LFS.. and a couple RCS with white line.. the marketing doesn't really bother me, I'll likely continue to use Seachem products and trust that they work

 

So prime doesn't work when it comes to detoxifying the 3 forms of nitrogen? And stability isn't a real bacterial supplement? ****...

Ammonia...I'd say it's almost a toss up. It might work, it might not.

Nitrite...extremely unlikely.

Nitrate...also extremely unlikely but nitrate is so non-toxic that it doesn't need to be detoxified.

Thank you for doing that Dave. That is comforting at least.

Since we seem to have worked out the chemistry, I would like to know how much Prime it would take to move the needle 2 ppm (from 6 to 4 ppm) in a 10 gallon tank with no aeration. That was 76 milligrams of free 02 to be removed.

I am wondering if in your test the oxygen was being replaced rapidly from the air, so that we were really seeing a fight between the rate that oxygen was being removed vs the rate that oxygen was coming back in?

I have some sealed barrels that I could use, and a big bottle of Prime that I need to throw any away. Perhaps I could do that test. Maybe have to start a new thread for that one.

I am just looking for an estimate of how much Prime we are talking about here?

I think it's premature to say the chemistry has been figured out.

The tank didn't have any fish or a filter. It also had no aeration just a wavemaker mounted halfway between the surface and the bottom set on the lowest flow rate to mix the dechlorinator and water. Very little surface disturbance. I let it run for a long time until I figured it was at equilibrium (much like an aquarium). Levels were slightly higher than my main tank so I was looking for a drop down to 3-4 mg/L which would cause problems. I didn't even get close to that.

I think the problem wasn't a lack of dechlorinator but the lack of a catalyst. Chemicals used for deoxygenation include things like sodium sulfite but they always use a catalyst, typically cobalt.

Why are you discarding Prime? I've tested Prime from 2007 and it dechlorinates almost as well as new Prime. I use it as a dechlorinator only. I won't buy any more but I also won't throw away the Prime and Safe that I already own.

my thoughts on prime is "use SAFE instead" lasts forever

The recommended dose of Prime neutralizes 6.2 times more chloramine than that of Safe. If you were to dose Prime at 1 mL per 62 gal it would last longer. Safe is only 3X cheaper than Prime on a chlorine neutralized per dollar basis.

I was the same way too. It hurts to realize you have been deceived. There is a certain amount of denial that we must get through.

You and I perhaps are trusting souls. Unfortunately there are sharks that take advantage of us. We must learn that is our failing not theirs. They are by their nature, sharks.

Seachem plays fast and loose with marketing claims. Probably more so than any other aquarium company.

 

Ammonia...I'd say it's almost a toss up. It might work, it might not.

Nitrite...extremely unlikely.

Nitrate...also extremely unlikely but nitrate is so non-toxic that it doesn't need to be detoxified.



I think it's premature to say the chemistry has been figured out.

The tank didn't have any fish or a filter. It also had no aeration just a wavemaker mounted halfway between the surface and the bottom set on the lowest flow rate to mix the dechlorinator and water. Very little surface disturbance. I let it run for a long time until I figured it was at equilibrium (much like an aquarium). Levels were slightly higher than my main tank so I was looking for a drop down to 3-4 mg/L which would cause problems. I didn't even get close to that.

I think the problem wasn't a lack of dechlorinator but the lack of a catalyst. Chemicals used for deoxygenation include things like sodium sulfite but they always use a catalyst, typically cobalt.

Why are you discarding Prime? I've tested Prime from 2007 and it dechlorinates almost as well as new Prime. I use it as a dechlorinator only. I won't buy any more but I also won't throw away the Prime and Safe that I already own.



The recommended dose of Prime neutralizes 6.2 times more chloramine than that of Safe. If you were to dose Prime at 1 mL per 62 gal it would last longer. Safe is only 3X cheaper than Prime on a chlorine neutralized per dollar basis.



Seachem plays fast and loose with marketing claims. Probably more so than any other aquarium company.

Yea I still have to email Seachem but I doubt they would confirm any of this anyways. My reasoning is based on my background and known reactions that occur with the ingredients in Prime. I'm probably missing stuff and might not be correct about everything

I would agree that the nitrite claims are dubious, and the ammonia claims are completely different from what it actually does.

Truth be told most water conditioners are just thiosulfate salts so pretty much all the same. Prime is sodium dithionite... Which reacts with water to form thiosulfate salts lel. Just a silly marketing thing really

 

Why are you discarding Prime? I've tested Prime from 2007 and it dechlorinates almost as well as new Prime. I use it as a dechlorinator only. I won't buy any more but I also won't throw away the Prime and Safe that I already own.

Because I have a private well. No chlorine.

I have only used Prime for its claimed property to make ammonia spikes safe, not for chlorine removal.

Prime changes ammonia into ammonium which isn’t toxic to fish. The API ammonia kit detects ammonia and ammonium, so there is no observable difference because the non-toxic form still shows on test. This is correct, right?

This was awarded the best answer?

You can literally do the chemical test and see that there is no change to either free ammonia or ammonium.

This is NOT correct. Please remove the award.

 

I don’t have much to contribute about Prime . But I have read a little of what others have written in regards to the safe maximum recommendation for ammonia with different PH and temperature.
This is a free card hand out that I received years ago. Hopefully someone can use this as a guide?

 

I don’t have much to contribute about Prime . But I have read a little of what others have written in regards to the safe maximum recommendation for ammonia with different PH and temperature.
This is a free card hand out that I received years ago. Hopefully someone can use this as a guide?View attachment 725567

This is using a safety factor of 2.

At 25 degs C and pH of 8.0, it shows a maximum total ammonia of .5 ppm.

The standard for gill damage is 1 ppm as we discussed above. So this table has a safety margin of 2x.

Seems very reasonable.

 

This was awarded the best answer?

You can literally do the chemical test and see that there is no change to either free ammonia or ammonium.

This is NOT correct. Please remove the award.

What chemical test are you talking about? If you are talking about API ammonia test, you are literally proving my point. The test does not show the change because it detected both forms (ammonia and ammonium). There is no observable change. It still makes it safer by changing it to ammonium, but the test doesn’t show a difference because it detects both.

 

This was awarded the best answer?

You can literally do the chemical test and see that there is no change to either free ammonia or ammonium.

This is NOT correct. Please remove the award.

Pay no mind. I don't know who actually votes on those but in a thread about euthanasia a while back, the award went to the method considered inhumane by the AVMA.

I found the following exchange with Dr. Neale interesting. The poster apparently has a fish with ammonia burns, but doesn't understand why.

(poster) Hi Neale- thank you for the response! I don't think the bluish-white patches are ammonia burns as until yesterday I was using a product by Seachem called Prime which is a water conditioner with an ammonia lock.

Neale Monks: <Do understand Prime and other ammonia removers ONLY remove ammonia from tap water; they have a near-zero effect on the CONSTANTLY produced ammonia coming from your fish. If we could just add water conditioner to our fish tanks, we wouldn't need filters!!!>

(poster) I treated the entire tank with every water change (as it only locks up the ammonia for 24 hours).

Neale Monks: <No, you misunderstand. Water conditioners neutralise the small amounts of ammonia in tap water. They have NOTHING to do with the ammonia produced by your fish. Overdosing water conditioners could, in theory, do harm. So only dose new water when added to the aquarium. DO NOT KEEP ADDING it every day.>

(poster) I test the water daily, just before performing a water change and have never had a positive reading for ammonia: if it is a chemical burn I'm wondering if I was adding to much Prime.

Neale Monks: <Possibly. Prime is ONLY for adding to each bucket of NEW water.>

 

What chemical test are you talking about? If you are talking about API ammonia test, you are literally proving my point. The test does not show the change because it detected both forms (ammonia and ammonium). There is no observable change. It still makes it safer by changing it to ammonium, but the test doesn’t show a difference because it detects both.

Oh dear, I have posted these tests (post #56) in this thread, but I can see that in a long thread like this it gets lost. So here it is again.


You can use these two tests to test for both total ammonia and free ammonia.

Seachem - Ammonia Alert (for free ammonia: NH3)

API® | AMMONIA TEST KIT (for total ammonia NH3 + NH4+)


I have done the tests at a pH of 8.0, and I see no change in the readings after adding Prime per the dosage indicated. Others have done the same thing.

Please do these tests yourself. It will help a lot to clear this up and make you a believer.

No, Prime does NOT exchange ammonia and ammonium. It has no effect on either per direct measurements with these tests.

One has to argue that even though the tests still register the same concentration of both ammonia and ammonium, that somehow, they are 'locked up'.

Magically, this lock up only works up to the level (1 ppm) that would not harm the fish anyway. And then disappears after one day. Good One!!

 

Oh dear, I have posted these tests (post #56) in this thread, but I can see that in a long thread like this it gets lost. So here it is again.


You can use these two tests to test for both total ammonia and free ammonia.

Seachem - Ammonia Alert (for free ammonia: NH3)

API® | AMMONIA TEST KIT (for total ammonia MH3 + NH4+)


I have done the tests at a pH of 8.0, and I see no change in the readings after adding Prime per the dosage indicated. Others have done the same thing.

Please do these tests yourself. It will help a lot to clear this up and make you a believer.

No, Prime does NOT exchange ammonia and ammonium. It has no effect on either per direct measurements with these tests.

One has to argue that even though the tests still register the same concentration of both ammonia and ammonium, that somehow, they are 'locked up'.

Magically, this lock up only works up to the level (1 ppm) that would not harm the fish anyway. And then disappears after one day. Good One!!

I have only been in the hobby for 7 months, albeit with an obsessive amount of research, aquarium progression (already 4 and a rack system), and video watching. I am obviously still new to the hobby and am still learning every day so I was just posting what I had read and been informed of based on Seachem’s explanations in forums and such. If these tests have been administered and there was no change, then obviously you are right. So based off what you and the other guy said, it should only be used as a conditioner and not as a ammonia neutralizer during cycling, etc.?

 

Please change the thread award to #97.

I realize it is not my thread, but it basically is because the thread was from my post and just copied to this one.

And here's a question
What about if your municipality uses something to raise pH (like phosphates?) but hardness is still low like a kh/gh of 2 degrees and 40-80 TDS? Does total ammonia still have the same concentration of free ammonia?

Looks like the answer is that if you alter the pH with acid/base, this will cause the balance of ammonia/ammonium to shift as in the tables.

I base this on what they are doing with pond management practices on farms where acids and lime are used to adjust the pH which changes the free ammonia levels too. They describe trying to add acid to lower pH in the event of an ammonia spike.

From the basic chemical equations too, it is clear that the pH is what sets the ammonia/ammonium balance.
So regardless of how you achieve a certain pH, the tables still apply.

NH3 + H2O <-> NH4+ + OH-

 

Seachem - Ammonia Alert (for free ammonia: NH3)

Does the ammonia alert really work well enough I could trust it instead of testing the ammonia with a liquid test?

 

Does the ammonia alert really work well enough I could trust it instead of testing the ammonia with a liquid test?

It seems to be correct. It indicates free ammonia only. Certainly easier than a liquid test.

The thing is when you search for information about it, you will find that you should use it in your tank to monitor for ammonia. If ammonia goes up even a little bit, you are directed to add an ammonia reducer. Those links take you to Prime!

Prime is being sold as an 'ammonia reducer' for when your ammonia spikes in your tank.

So the purpose of this test is to get you to use more Prime!

But it literally has no effect on the free ammonia test.

Amazing



No matter. We all know what to do if it spikes. Change the water and find the dead fish! (Or in my case, remove the entire bottle of fish food that the 2 year old dumped in there!)

This is a subject that comes up often. I don't think we will ever get all the way to the bottom of if it works as advertised.

But there is nothing to get to the bottom of. It simply doesn't have any affect on ammonia or ammonia as measured chemically. And, it is just the exact same chemical used in the other dechlorinators. Simply a commodity.

That's it.

 

But there is nothing to get to the bottom of. It simply doesn't have any affect on ammonia or ammonia as measured chemically. And, it is just the exact same chemical used in the other dechlorinators. Simply a commodity.

That's it.

You can keep quoting me if you like but you have your opinion and I have mine. In this one thing I won't be swayed so we will have to agree to disagree and let it drop. I will continue recommending Prime when doing a fish in cycle no matter how often this discussion comes up.

 

To anyone who reads this thread,
- If you are having an ammonia spike
- And you have pH on the high side 7.8-8.0 (which is very common) or higher
- And your total ammonia level is 1.0 ppm

- And you think that by adding Prime, you will be saving your fish, because Seachem says that it makes ammonia non toxic

then

You are harming your fish!


Prime does not do anything with regards to this ammonia spike and you need to get the ammonia level down.

 

I don't use it anyway. Can't stand the smell of sulfur...spent too much time living close to a fertilizer plant.

 

We need to add this to the list of things not to be spoken of in a civil or work environment. Personal orientation/preferences, politics, religion, and seachem products. I'll get the poster guy and HR working on the campaign asap.

 

Keep it civil like the 1st 5 pages or ill lock the thread and ill have the last word.