Your thoughts on prime. Is it a myth?

Frank the Fish guy posted this in a thread I made about myths and to be honest I still believed this one. Reading what he said makes sense to me.

Frankthefishguy it does make me wonder if I was getting decieved by seachem on purpose. I will have to do math but prime is very concentrated I thought it was cheapest due to its concentration? Again I haven't done math because I believed I needed prime. Update I did math below...

What are y'alls thoughts on this?

Here is his post......

Myth: Seachem Prime detoxifies ammonia and does not increase the time to cycle a tank.

What I have come to understand: Ammonia levels at 1 ppm are not toxic to fish provided that the pH is not high (above 8.0). So when we have a fish in cycle, or ammonia spike, and dose prime, we credit Prime for making the fish survive when in fact they would have been fine without it.

The fact that Prime claims it only works up to 1 ppm ammonia, and the fact that the ammonia still registers on a chemical test means that there is no observable effect of Prime on our fish or chemistry, other than it does eliminate chlorine/chloramine like other water conditions do (that don't claim to work on ammonia).

I have recently cycled a few tanks and found that Prime increases the time to cycle the tank. All the tanks where I added nothing achieved a full cycle sooner.

I don't have chlorine in my water since I have a well. I have gotten rid of all of my Prime as it does nothing for me.

I believe Seachem is being intentionally deceptive and therefore I have gotten rid of all of my other Seachem products as well.

 

I need clarification. There seems to be two issue here not one. 1. Does Seachem Prime bind ammonia up to 1.0 ppm for up to 48 hours if you dose the tank for full volume? 2. Does Seachem Prime speed up or slow down the cycled process?

For number 1. I've never needed to test it luckily - I've only been in the hobby a couple of months. 2. I think it would stall a beginning cycle. If you bind ammonia before ammonia eating bacteria get to it, the bacteria will starve and never get to the nitrite stage. My understanding is you want ammonia to start a cycle. I don't see why you would even try Prime to speed up a cycle.

I am not challenging anyone, I'm genuinely curious about number 1.

 

Really the only reason I use Prime is due to it being concentrated & the potential of saving a little $.
I used Tetra & Jungle dechlorinators for many years prior to Prime with no problems.

 

I need clarification. There seems to be two issue here not one. 1. Does Seachem Prime bind ammonia up to 1.0 ppm for up to 48 hours if you dose the tank for full volume? 2. Does Seachem Prime speed up or slow down the cycled process?

For number 1. I've never needed to test it luckily - I've only been in the hobby a couple of months. 2. I think it would stall a beginning cycle. If you bind ammonia before ammonia eating bacteria get to it, the bacteria will starve and never get to the nitrite stage. My understanding is you want ammonia to start a cycle. I don't see why you would even try Prime to speed up a cycle.

I am not challenging anyone, I'm genuinely curious about number 1.

This is why I love this forum. Can expand your mind rather than just be a "parrot " from LFS information.

He states below that ammonia still registered on chemical test. So did nothing. We need someone who has pure ammonia and do some water tests lol. So if still reading on test how is it safer for our fish?

"The fact that Prime claims it only works up to 1 ppm ammonia, and the fact that the ammonia still registers on a chemical test means that there is no observable effect of Prime on our fish or chemistry"

 

Also, being a beginner, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with ammonia at 1.0. Even if it is safe for fish it can't go higher so there is no room for error. I would start working on it right aways as I'd fear it getting out of control.

This is why I love this forum. Can expand your mind rather than just be a "parrot " from LFS information.

He states below that ammonia still registered on chemical test. So did nothing. We need someone who has pure ammonia and do some water tests lol. So if still reading on test how is it safer for our fish?

"The fact that Prime claims it only works up to 1 ppm ammonia, and the fact that the ammonia still registers on a chemical test means that there is no observable effect of Prime on our fish or chemistry"

Does "the fact that ammonia still registers" mean that Prime didn't lower it at all or it did, just not to 0? How long did he wait before testing?

 

I have never used Prime personally. API's main dechlorinator is rather concentrated as well. So is Imagitarium Betta Conditioner. Would suck for the people who swear by Prime if they been making their tanks smell like sulfur for no reason all this time.

 

I’m a bit confused. I understand that it doesn’t seem to have much Or any effect on ammonia and that it delays the cycle. What I’m confused about is in the post he said 1ppm ammonia isn’t toxic in a pH under 8 and for anyone who has a pH under that prime isn’t really doing anything . What about the people who’s pH is over 8? Is there any benefits with prime being used where 1ppm can be dangerous?

 

Really the only reason I use Prime is due to it being concentrated & the potential of saving a little $.
I used Tetra & Jungle dechlorinators for many years prior to Prime with no problems.

I'm still having 1st cup of coffee but correct my math if wrong. Api is cheaper.

Prime is $16.50 treats 5000 us gal
.0033 cents per gal

Api $6.50 has 2 ratio one without chloramine one with.
Without 1ml per 20 us gal
.00068 cents per gal
With 5ml per 30 us gal
.0022 cents per gal.

If math is right API IS CHEAPER

I’m a bit confused. I understand that it doesn’t seem to have much Or any effect on ammonia and that it delays the cycle. What I’m confused about is in the post he said 1ppm ammonia isn’t toxic in a pH under 8 and for anyone who has a pH under that prime isn’t really doing anything . What about the people who’s pH is over 8? Is there any benefits with prime being used where 1ppm can be dangerous?

Or will nothing really help ammonia over 1ppm and ph over 8 other than prayers and water changes?

 

I might just pick up the API product next time. Lol

 

Or will nothing really help ammonia over 1ppm and ph over 8 other than prayers and water changes?

I hope something can.. I wonder if hard water fish are more immune to ammonia because of that? If so, does that mean keeping African cichlids would be easier, even if it’s overstocked?

 

Prime changes ammonia into ammonium which isn’t toxic to fish. The API ammonia kit detects ammonia and ammonium, so there is no observable difference because the non-toxic form still shows on test. This is correct, right?

 

I keep an over stocked African Cichlid community tank w/ hard water & elevated PH. No problems using Prime, or any other related product.

 

The enzyme that catalyzes the first step in nitrification isn't picky about its substrates allowing scientists to use nitrifying bacteria to detoxify pollutants other than ammonia. It's certainly plausible that ammonia bound to Prime can be consumed by bacteria. It would take a controlled experiment and many iterations showing a clear trend to convince me either way though.

These colorimetric tests don't mean anything. Seachem will claim that they can't distinguish between ammonia and bound ammonia. This is also plausible. One way to test this would be to dose two populations of daphnia (commonly used aquatic toxicity test organisms) with ammonia and ammonia plus Prime. Again, many iterations would have to be done to tease out any differences.

I also see people on Youtube and other places putting drops of Prime in the API test tubes and ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels go down. This is a massive overdose and it's known that reducing agents can interfere with colorimetric tests.

The one time I used Prime to detoxify ammonia it didn't help. As far as I'm concerned, its ability to detoxify ammonia hasn't been proven and if I have an ammonia problem I use clinoptilolite.

 

I’ve been using Prime but for me there’s no reason. It was easier than the stuff I had to measure in the cap, though, because I just add a few drops now. I don’t know if it really detoxifies ammonia, and like others have said it only supposedly helps up to 1 ppm, which most fish tolerate fine and is necessary for a cycling tank anyway. A 0.10 cent difference doesn’t matter for me either, because I only have one 20 gal tank. If someone has a lot of water to condition, a 0.10 cent difference would definitely add up!

 

This comes up regularly, and the bottom line to me is what makes anyone think that their home chemistry set will defy years of controlled laboratory testing and product development?
I've lost fish to disease, parasites, old age, and one time to what I assume is osmotic shock (due to my own inexperience with the species and not doing my research on guppies' harder water requirements ((I know of no one in my area that can successfully keep them)). I've never lost a fish due to Prime poisoning. It's 2 drops per gallon and my fish live. If I'm paying for peace of mind - even placebo-induced - than that's enough reason for me to use it. The water where I live is just awful...chock full of chloramine, phosphate, and heaven knows what else. If I didn't use it, my fish would certainly die. I use it and they don't die. **shrug** I don't think Seachem is a lying money-grabbing megacorp.

 

Many years ago when I was new to the hobby, I used an old bottle of Seachem Clarify that I found at a thrift store. I thought it would be a helpful addition since I occasionally dealt with water clarity issues...plus it was cheap hilarious Anyway, I used this product and, if I remember correctly, it made my tanks go haywire! It did not clarify the water whatsoever and it made my tank go through an ammonia spike. Luckily most of the fish survived. I'm not sure if this was the product's fault, user error, or if the bottle went bad because it was "expired".

There was another time about 7 years ago when I ran a small rescue for Goldfish. And though I had been in the hobby for awhile, I still didn't know that much (I hadn't gotten serious until these past 6 years or so). I unfortunately kept around 15 Common/Comet Goldfish in a 75 gallon aquarium, where most of them grew mid-sized but many of them died. Anywho, one day my 75 broke so I had to temporarily keep about 8 Goldfish and 2 Minnows in a 35 gallon bin. I knew about ammonia and how it was harmful for fish so I decided to purchase some brand new Seachem Prime from my local Petco. I added it to this bin, and over the course of a few days, almost all of the fish died. The only ones who lived were luckily my favorites, but it was still a very unfortunate situation. Now, I can see how I could've dosed wrong. I've heard that if you dose too much Prime that it can kill the fish, but I'm not sure whether this was the issue. The bottle was brand new, so I know it wasn't expired like the last one. I can't quite understand what happened here. So to all who are reading this, please ensure that you dose Prime CORRECTLY, and try not to use anything that's expired. Hopefully this helps! Have a great day, all!

 

Or will nothing really help ammonia over 1ppm and ph over 8 other than prayers and water changes?

Clinoptilolite is scientifically proven to bind ammonium (which then shifts the equilibrium and converts more ammonia to ammonium which is in turn bound). It can't be used if you have a lot of salt as it has a higher affinity for sodium. It can be recharged with a brine solution. And the ammonia will show up as having decreased on a test. I bought 20 lbs on eBay.

Prime changes ammonia into ammonium which isn’t toxic to fish. The API ammonia kit detects ammonia and ammonium, so there is no observable difference because the non-toxic form still shows on test. This is correct, right?

Seachem says it doesn't and how could it without lowering pH?

I'm still having 1st cup of coffee but correct my math if wrong. Api is cheaper.

Prime is $16.50 treats 5000 us gal
.0033 cents per gal

Api $6.50 has 2 ratio one without chloramine one with.
Without 1ml per 20 us gal
.00068 cents per gal
With 5ml per 30 us gal
.0022 cents per gal.

If math is right API IS CHEAPER

To really determine which is more concentrated/cost effective you need to measure chlorine/chloramine neutralized per volume of product (or mass of product for dry powders). The recommended doses of different products don't neutralize the same amount of chlorine. Even within the same manufacturer as Prime neutralizes 3.2 mg/L chloramine and Safe only 0.52 mg/L. If you just go by gallons of water treated by the recommended dose per dollar, Safe appears to be 18X more cost effective. But its recommended dose neutralizes 6.2 times less chloramine so it's really only 3X more cost effective.

 

He isn't wrong but his post doesn't convey the whole picture either. Ammonia forms an equilibrium relationship with water from the following reaction:

NH3 + H20 -- NH4+ + OH-

So, depending on parameters such as temperature and pH, some of the ammonia in your tank always exists in the form of non-toxic NH4+. It is true that Prime will not help much if your pH is closer to neutral because the relationship heavily favours NH4+ already. So chalk that up to marketing for sure.

However, the part that isn't being considered is that we use "total ammonia" when we talk about toxicity and how it affects our fish. The reality is that even a trace amount of NH3 can and will harm your fish. While it is true that anything over a "total ammonia" concentration of 1ppm is harmful to your fish, it really means that anything over 0.02ppm of NH3 is harmful to your fish. Again, because the actual amount of NH3 changes with temperature and pH, the larger picture is pretty complicated. It's just easier to quantify things in a way that the average person can easily understand.

So, yes, Prime may not help if you have perfect water parameters, but it is useful because the slightest uptick in NH3 will quickly harm your fish. The salts in Prime help to prevent this. A lot of you guys in the US are experiencing heat waves right now, and driftwood/crushed coral/CO2 can change pH pretty easily. So the parameters that are important to the equilibrium of ammonia in water tend to change fairly often, even if slightly.

Even under the most optimal conditions (perfect temperature and pH 7.0) I would consider the "safe" zone to be 1.2 ppm ammonia, but again that is "total ammonia." Prime is recommended to help bind ammonia and nitrite to a combined total of 1 ppm, so the recommendations are not that far off. It still makes perfect sense if you study the chemistry.

For me, I used to overdose Prime frequently, but I now only treat the amount of water used in my water changes. I stopped treating the full volume of my tank every week because I always read 0 ammonia lately and my tap water happens to be a perfect 7.0 pH. I'm really just using it for dechlorination and heavy metal removal at this point. Which, of course, is fine. I'm still of the opinion that Prime is the best on the market.

Hope that helps

Basically, ammonia already exists mostly as NH4+ in your water but as little as 0.02ppm NH3 can harm your fish. And NH3 production changes with temperature and pH. Prime simply keeps your water chemistry stable by facilitating the NH4+ side of the equation, which essentially protects you against swings in temperature and pH. It doesn't actually "detoxify ammonia" but you still need it to maintain a stable tank imo

 

For those that say it hinders the cycling process I will have to disagree. The last time I cycled a tank from scratch I used Prime for my dechlorinator. I was doing a fish in cycle. I set the tank up using Prime to dechlorinate the water. Once set up I let it run for a couple of days to make sure all was working as it should. Then I fully stocked the tank.

I added Prime every other day as I was doing every other day water changes. Once nitrites spiked I was doing daily water change and adding Prime each time. The tank went from dry to fully cycled in 6 weeks. I was seeing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and low nitrates at 5 weeks but the water was still a touch cloudy. At the end of 6 weeks the water was crystal clear. That is when I considered my cycle complete and went to weekly water changes.

BTW: Here it is going on 5 years and most of the fish I started with are still alive and healthy.

 

This comes up regularly, and the bottom line to me is what makes anyone think that their home chemistry set will defy years of controlled laboratory testing and product development? **shrug** I don't think Seachem is a lying money-grabbing megacorp.

You're giving them way too much credit. These companies don't have big R&D staff. Seachem is mostly marketing people. Rumor is they only have one R&D person. A smaller company like Kordon probably doesn't even have a single fulltime R&D person.

In the beginning, I was a Seachem fan mainly because I believed their claims that Prime was more cost effective. Then I became more knowledgeable and they started making more and more ridiculous marketing claims.

Seachem says Metroplex treats anaerobic bacterial infections. This is true but they neglect to mention that nearly all bacterial infections of fish are aerobic. Lie by omission?

They also claim Matrix has the most surface area but neglect to mention that surface area isn't limiting and even the much maligned bio balls have more than enough to sustain several times typical stocking levels. They also fail to mention that those tiny pores and crevices will clog and become useless for aerobic bacteria. More lies by omission? Oh, and it's just pumice stone sold at a huge mark up. They claim it's graded but people pull out contaminant rocks all the time.

Kanaplex is underdosed 17-34X so it often doesn't work and only encourages resistance. They also claim it treats fungal infections. A search of the scientific literature found no evidence of this but plenty to the contrary.

Seachem Safe is also underdosed and people with higher chlorine levels and/or who do larger water changes have had deaths.

They started the whole liquid carbon market without performing proper toxicity tests. Or maybe they did and just figured fish would die frequently enough for people to notice.

Nitrite/nitrate/heavy metals detoxification claims of Prime/Safe are unbelievable.

Claiming their external parasite product (Paraguard) can treat viral and bacterial infections simply because glutaraldehyde is used as an external hospital disinfectant.

And I'm probably forgetting something.

Oh yeah, Stability isn't true nitrifying bacteria but undesirable heterotrophic bacteria.

 

You're giving them way too much credit. These companies don't have big R&D staff. Seachem is mostly marketing people. Rumor is they only have one R&D person. A smaller company like Kordon probably doesn't even have a single fulltime R&D person.

In the beginning, I was a Seachem fan mainly because I believed their claims that Prime was more cost effective. Then I became more knowledgeable and they started making more and more ridiculous marketing claims.

Seachem says Metroplex treats anaerobic bacterial infections. This is true but they neglect to mention that nearly all bacterial infections of fish are aerobic. Lie by omission?

They also claim Matrix has the most surface area but neglect to mention that surface area isn't limiting and even the much maligned bio balls have more than enough to sustain several times typical stocking levels. They also fail to mention that those tiny pores and crevices will clog and become useless for aerobic bacteria. More lies by omission? Oh, and it's just pumice stone sold at a huge mark up. They claim it's graded but people pull out contaminant rocks all the time.

Kanaplex is underdosed 17-34X so it often doesn't work and only encourages resistance. They also claim it treats fungal infections. A search of the scientific literature found no evidence of this but plenty to the contrary.

Seachem Safe is also underdosed and people with higher chlorine levels and/or who do larger water changes have had deaths.

They started the whole liquid carbon market without performing proper toxicity tests. Or maybe they did and just figured fish would die frequently enough for people to notice.

Nitrite/nitrate/heavy metals detoxification claims of Prime/Safe are unbelievable.

Claiming their external parasite product (Paraguard) can treat viral and bacterial infections simply because glutaraldehyde is used as an external hospital disinfectant.

And I'm probably forgetting something.

A lot of their marketing is just quantifying their products in a way that the general public can easily understand.. take my Prime explanation for example.. it wouldn't make sense to most people if they said "Prime protects your water chemistry against swings in temperature and pH by facilitating the NH4+ side of the equilibrium reaction between ammonia and water." It just makes more sense to say it "detoxifies ammonia." I trust seachems products because they seem to do what they claim once you do some digging, even if the mechanism of action is completely indirect

For those that say it hinders the cycling process I will have to disagree. The last time I cycled a tank from scratch I used Prime for my dechlorinator. I was doing a fish in cycle. I set the tank up using Prime to dechlorinate the water. Once set up I let it run for a couple of days to make sure all was working as it should. Then I fully stocked the tank.

I added Prime every other day as I was doing every other day water changes. Once nitrites spiked I was doing daily water change and adding Prime each time. The tank went from dry to fully cycled in 6 weeks. I was seeing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and low nitrates at 5 weeks but the water was still a touch cloudy. At the end of 6 weeks the water was crystal clear. That is when I considered my cycle complete and went to weekly water changes.

BTW: Here it is going on 5 years and most of the fish I started with are still alive and healthy.

Agreed. I thought my tank was running for 2 months but my receipt shows I bought it 5 weeks ago. The reality is that I used Prime liberally every day and my tank cycled in 1 week. Of course every tank cycles differently, but I HIGHLY doubt that it would have been faster without Prime

 

Prime simply keeps your water chemistry stable by facilitating the NH4+ side of the equation, which essentially protects you against swings in temperature and pH.

I don't think Prime can do this without altering pH. In their support forums they also say that Prime doesn't convert ammonia to ammonium.

For those that say it hinders the cycling process I will have to disagree.

This is why I say a series of controlled experiments is necessary. People have conflicting results. Two tanks (or more) have to cycled fishlessly and be identical except one is dosed ammonia and one ammonia plus Prime. Then they need to be rest and the tests run over and over until a clear pattern emerges (or doesn't).

 

I don't think Prime can do this without altering pH. In their support forums they also say that Prime doesn't convert ammonia to ammonium.



This is why I say a series of controlled experiments is necessary. People have conflicting results. Two tanks (or more) have to cycled fishlessly and be identical except one is dosed ammonia and one ammonia plus Prime. Then they need to be rest and the tests run over and over until a clear pattern emerges (or doesn't).

It doesn't directly convert NH3 into NH4+, the thiosulfate salts just act as a "catalyst" (so to speak) that encourages the NH4+ side of the equilibrium reaction. It's only meant to prevent swings in NH3. It's more of a "stabilizer" than it is a "detoxifier" but again this is just marketing

 

For what it is worth sachem prime was not designed to neutralize ammonia or nitrite. However, it was found to do so after the fact. Anyway 1ppm of ammonia would have killed my angel frys very fast. That is quite a deadly concentration. Even when i do a fish cyclei never let it get above 0.5ppm. Not sure where you determined 1ppm was harmless at ph of 7.

 

It doesn't directly convert NH3 into NH4+, the thiosulfate salts just act as a "catalyst" (so to speak) that encourages the NH4+ side of the equilibrium reaction. It's only meant to prevent swings in NH3. It's more of a "stabilizer" than it is a "detoxifier" but again this is just marketing

The way to do this is by lowering pH which Prime doesn't do (at least not by much). Even if there was a way to do this without lowering pH you would be fighting the NH3+/NH4 chemical equilibrium.

I have never seen this description of how Prime detoxifies ammonia before. It certainly doesn't come from Seachem who claims it's done by binding ammonia to form an "iminium" or "imidium" complex.

 

I have an academic background in chemistry but I'm not an expert

If I had to guess, based on my education, I'd say that thiosulfate forms ammonia thiosulfate in tank water, thus removing NH4+ from the equilibrium reaction. This action "pushes" the left side of the reaction to form more NH4+ in compensation. Thereby lowering the concentration of NH3 indirectly. Here are the two reactions

NH3 + H20 -- NH4+ + OH-

(NH4)2SO3 + S -- (NH4)2S2O3

A removal from the right side of reaction one automatically causes a shift in the left side of the equation.

You might be thinking where does the sulfur come from for reaction 2, but Prime is a mixture of several complex thiosulfate salts. The overall picture is much more complex, but the end result is a more stable tank chemistry. That 2nd reaction shows NH4+ already bound into ammonia sulfate of course

The way to do this is by lowering pH which Prime doesn't do (at least not by much). Even if there was a way to do this without lowering pH you would be fighting the NH3+/NH4 chemical equilibrium.

I have never seen this description of how Prime detoxifies ammonia before. It certainly doesn't come from Seachem who claims it's done by binding ammonia to form an "iminium" or "imidium" complex.

Ammonia and pH doesn't share a direct relationship, it's just that the equilibrium of ammonia in water itself is partially dependent on pH. It's very possible to push the equilibrium one way or the other without changing pH at all. pH doesn't "depend" on ammonia, it's the acidity of ionized hydrogen as we know

 

For what it is worth sachem prime was not designed to neutralize ammonia or nitrite. However, it was found to do so after the fact. Anyway 1ppm of ammonia would have killed my angel frys very fast. That is quite a deadly concentration. Even when i do a fish cyclei never let it get above 0.5ppm. Not sure where you determined 1ppm was harmless at ph of 7.

Yes, it is designed to detox ammonia. Seachem added something to detox ammonia. I am not scientific minded enough to understand exactly what that is. After some time Seachem added nitrite to the things it detoxes because folks claimed that it does. That isn't enough proof for me so I never tell folks that it will detox nitrite spikes.

 

You know what doesn't get into my head?

WHY does anyone with a correctly cycled tank need something that binds ammonia in the first place?

Also, I'm so glad that the authorities in my country test the heck out of products like that before giving them approval for sale. Maybe the reason I see no Seachem and no API products in the shelfs here. Water conditioners here are only labeled as binding heavy metals and as dechlorinators.

 

You know what doesn't get into my head?

WHY does anyone with a correctly cycled tank need something that binds ammonia in the first place?

Also, I'm so glad that the authorities in my country test the heck out of products like that before giving them approval for sale. Maybe the reason I see no Seachem and no API products in the shelfs here. Water conditioners here are only labeled as binding heavy metals and as dechlorinators.

Always wondered that about the first part especially. I could see that ability being nice for a fish-in cycle...but, i probably won't change conditioners anytime soon. Prime isn't near as widespread available as the others in my area, anyhow.

 

You know what doesn't get into my head?

WHY does anyone with a correctly cycled tank need something that binds ammonia in the first place?

Also, I'm so glad that the authorities in my country test the heck out of products like that before giving them approval for sale. Maybe the reason I see no Seachem and no API products in the shelfs here. Water conditioners here are only labeled as binding heavy metals and as dechlorinators.

This is a good question. The only time I actually recommend Prime is when someone is doing a fish in cycle. Any water conditioner will work just fine once the tank is fully cycled or while doing a fishless cycle.

Quite often I have to wonder what all these heavy metals are though

 

Always wondered that about the first part especially. I could see that ability being nice for a fish-in cycle...but, i probably won't change conditioners anytime soon. Prime isn't near as widespread available as the others in my area, anyhow.

I don't use conditioners. Water providers have to dechlorinate themselves before sending it into the system here, except if there has been a contamination, in which case that is all over local media. And since I found out that the copper pipes in the basement are not part of the water supply but of the central heating I have no more reason to use them.

 

Yes, it is designed to detox ammonia. Seachem added something to detox ammonia. I am not scientific minded enough to understand exactly what that is. After some time Seachem added nitrite to the things it detoxes because folks claimed that it does. That isn't enough proof for me so I never tell folks that it will detox nitrite spikes.

Sodium thiosulfate and nitrite should form a weak equilibrium and form sodium nitrite plus the unbound thiosulfate and since nitrite will be the limiting reagent here the marketing team at Seachem has concluded that it "detoxifies nitrite" which isn't really true entirely.. at some point that nitrite may become bioavailable to your fish but again the whole purpose of Prime is to stabilize your watr chemistry.. the whole "detoxifies a b and c" stuff is pure marketing.. that's not really how it works at all

 

Quite often I have to wonder what all these heavy metals are though

In older buildings copper and lead piping can cause contamination. And a number of others which should not be in your water.

 

Ammonia and pH doesn't share a direct relationship, it's just that the equilibrium of ammonia in water itself is partially dependent on pH. It's very possible to push the equilibrium one way or the other without changing pH at all. pH doesn't "depend" on ammonia, it's the acidity of ionized hydrogen as we know

Well, then why does Seachem say, "Prime converts ammonia into a complexed iminium salt. This salt is a nitrogenous compound that can still be utilized by aerobic bacteria."

https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1803-prime-questions?p=9779#post9779

If I don't really buy their explanation I buy an unofficial explanation even less.

 

Well, then why does Seachem say, "Prime converts ammonia into a complexed iminium salt. This salt is a nitrogenous compound that can still be utilized by aerobic bacteria."

Prime questions... - Seachem Support Forums

If I don't really buy their explanation I buy an unofficial explanation even less.

I said the same thing lol. The "iminium" salt is ammonia thiosulfate. Thiosulfate salts react with NH4+ to form ammonia thiosulfate and NH3 is consumed to compensate. I guess you can consider these salts as a buffer for the equilibrium relationship of NH3 and NH4+ in water.

I am saying the same things as Seachem, same explanation

The equilibrium of ammonia in water is NH3 + H20 -- OH- + NH4+ So when you remove NH4+ by forming that "iminium salt" (ammonia thiosulfate) the left side of that reaction changes to produce more NH4+ to compensate, thus reducing NH3

 

This is why I love this forum. Can expand your mind rather than just be a "parrot " from LFS information.

He states below that ammonia still registered on chemical test. So did nothing. We need someone who has pure ammonia and do some water tests lol. So if still reading on test how is it safer for our fish?

Any hobbyist grade test will still register ammonia. Prime doesn't convert ammonia into "not-ammonia." It converts ammonia, which is bad for your fish, into ammonium, which is far less toxic, but still registers with your kits. That is also why Ph matters. At higher Ph, ammonium will convert back into ammonia.

Your bacterial colony will process both just fine.

 

You know what doesn't get into my head?

WHY does anyone with a correctly cycled tank need something that binds ammonia in the first place?

I have always wondered the same thing.

This is a good question. The only time I actually recommend Prime is when someone is doing a fish in cycle. Any water conditioner will work just fine once the tank is fully cycled or while doing a fishless cycle.

Agree.

 

I have an academic background in chemistry but I'm not an expert

If I had to guess, based on my education, I'd say that thiosulfate forms ammonia thiosulfate in tank water, thus removing NH4+ from the equilibrium reaction.

This chemist says thiosulfate doesn't react with ammonium:

If I dechlorinate my sample with excess amount of sodium...

 

This chemist says thiosulfate doesn't react with ammonium:

If I dechlorinate my sample with excess amount of sodium...

Sigh. It doesn't. Ammonium thiosulfate is typically produced with ammonia sulphite and sulfur. Why do you think Prime smells like straight sulfur? The mechanism isn't directly "thiosulfate plus ammonium equals ammonium thiosulfate." I would have to type out at least half a dozen different reactions to actually get there. I was simplifying my explanation for the sake of argument

There is more than one ingredient in Prime lol. It would take all day to explain how ammonia sulphate is produced with sulphur and a bunch of complicated salts but I am telling you this is how it works. If you want I will join Seachem forums later and ask them personally. If they say I'm wrong then I will come back and tell you that I'm wrong lol

 

I said the same thing lol. The "iminium" salt is ammonia thiosulfate. Thiosulfate salts react with NH4+ to form ammonia thiosulfate and NH3 is consumed to compensate. I guess you can consider these salts as a buffer for the equilibrium relationship of NH3 and NH4+ in water.

I am saying the same things as Seachem, same explanation

Iminium salts have a double bond between carbon and nitrogen:

Iminium - Wikipedia

Ammonium thiosulfate doesn't even have a carbon.