Yikes! Relapse?

  • #1
:'( :'(

I was just to feed neptune, and see some new raggy edges on the longest part of his tail.! Yesterday was last treatment. I have not done a water change since I started that treatment ( saturday) , since all readings were within range - however still not cycled.

Mike, you had suggested I give him a med break, based on showing signs of recovery - I sure agree, poor little guy). Do these curcumstances alter that? I just tested ammonian ( .25pp) & Nitrite ( 0ppm). Would you suggest I do only a water change of 25% and leave him unmedicated for a while ( at least today) and then continue with meds ( Maracyn2) tomorrow?

Or should I just do a 25% water change each day and see how it goes.

He is lively and and as usual, has no awareness of his bad hair day! Val ( I will watch the forum)

(Hmm...I did curse our good luck!)
LZ Floyd
  • #2
Don't know that you cursed your luck or just have the usual case of fin rot to deal with.  IIRC, you've used JL Fungus Eliminator and Maracyn Plus.  I've not used either of those and can't say how effective they are at treating fin rot.  Most folks, from the posts I've seen here, start with JL Fungus Clear, then move on to Maracyn 2 if the JLFC doesn't do the job.  Then it's on to an M1/M2 combo.

With some meds, it is suggested to do two 30% to 50% water changes 12 hours apart from each other.  That helps to clear the meds and isn't such a great shock to the fish as a 100% water change might be.  I'd be inclined to do just that before starting the Maracyn 2.

Dosing the tank with Maracyn 2 is a bit different than what you've done in the past.  The M2 directions call for 2 tabs or packets (I'll call them tabs) per 10 gallons on Day 1.  On Day 2 through Day 5, the directions call for adding 1 tab per 10 gallons each day.  In your 6-gallon, you'd start by measuring out 10 ounces of dechlorinated water.  For Day 1, put 2 tabs in the dechlorinated water and let them dissolve.  Once dissolved, measure out 6 ounces of that solution and put it into the tank (that's the equivalent of 2 tabs per 10 gallons).  Save the rest of the solution.  I think it's okay to save it at room temperature - you will use it in the next day's water change, which should be done before the next dose is administered.

On Day 2 (as on all subsequent days), before giving that day's meds, I'd do a 2-gallon water change.  In the  replacement water, I'd add 2 ounces (1 ounce per gallon) of the solution that remained from the day before and discard the rest of that solution.  After the water change was completed, I'd make up a new batch of solution (10 ounces dechlorinated water and 1 tab of M2), measure out six ounces of that solution, and dose the tank with it.  That would leave 4 ounces of new solution that I'd save (keeping it at room temp) for the next day's water change.  I'd keep following this pattern until the treatment was completed.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.  What you're trying to do is simulate what the makers of Maracyn 2 suggest while trying to compensate for water changes they suggest you forgo.  They assume you will be treating the fish in a cycled tank and won't need to do water changes over the five-day course of treatment.  The first dose is a double and could be meant to stun the bacteria (though the way the med deteriorates, it could just be compensatory).  When you dose the tank on Day 2 (and all subsequent days), there is still medication in the tank though somewhat deteriorated from the prior dosings.  If you do water changes, some of that deteriorated med is removed from the tank along with the water that is extracted.  When the water is replaced with new water, that med also needs to be replaced, but in the same deteriorated form as what was taken out.

Except for Day 1, each day has two different kinds of dosings.  One is the straight-forward dosing that comes from mixing up a new 10-ounce solution and adding 6 ounces to the tank, which is the equivalent of adding 1 tab per 10 gallons per day.  The other dosing is related to the water changes and is meant to maintain the tank at the same level of deteriorated meds that the Maracyn 2 makers assume would be there w/o water changes.  The latter part of this is accomplished by using the day-old meds in the replacement water.  Before dosing the tank on any given day, do the water change first.  That way all the meds will be at their proper deteriorated dosage levels before administering that day's dose.  If you dose the tank first, then do a water change, all the measures will be off and could make the meds less potent.

Don't be afraid to ask for clarification.  And good luck to you and Neptune.

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  • #3
Ya Ha, I do need some clarification of the last paragraph. First let me tell yu what I did. This morning I did 25% water change, and put in a new filter with carbon.
Water parameters are .25pp Ammonia; 0ppm Nitrite; 0pp Nitrate.

I think I'll wait until morning to do another water change, before I medicate. I will do 50%. Then I will remove the carbon and replace just the filter material. Then I do the dilution and add Maracyn 2 as you said. right?

Now since the water seems to be within relatively normal range, could I forego the water changes and just do the diluted dosage each day? Or is it better if I change water every day? 925%??)

Neptune's new growth on the upper part of his tail came back in a darker colour, so it is easy to see. The longest part of his tail just has those "spinely" things, the inbetween growth is gone. Now I am not sure if that is how the top started to grow back or not, ( slough off the dead stuff and started over kinda thing) can't really tell by looking at pics. I just looked one morning and could see definite new growth.

I am stunned at how quickly things happen in the fishy world!! Man, in minutes and hours it can be totally different. LOL

I am going to try to attach a photo now. I must learn the names of these fins and other body parts! It is visible on the long lower part of his tail, and you can also see the darker regrowth area.

Thanks Mike. Val
LZ Floyd
  • #4
I think your pre-treatment water change plan should be okay (as well as the removal of the carbon/charcoal part of the filter before dosing with the Maracyn 2).

Just to be sure, you're using the word dilution to describe the solution you make up, right?  Cause nothing should be diluted.

Regarding daily water changes, I'd do them.  They're a pain to keep up with; and, with every water change, there's a chance of making mistakes (like forgetting to use dechlor or adding too warm or too cool of replacement water).  Add to that the possibility of each water change being stressful for the fish and it would seem right to hold off on water changes whenever possible.  But, IMO, keeping ammonia levels down in an uncycled tank via water changes (that way I know the ammo level is down and I won't be fooled by a flawed test) is equally important if not more so when dealing with fin rot cases.   Doing daily water changes in an uncycled tank is about the best you can do to improve water conditions, and improving water conditions is the first thing most authors call for regarding fin rot cases.

WRT the "last paragraph" that you mentioned, I'm trying to show that dosing the tank w/M2 has two parts.  One part relates to the water changes and how the meds used in the replacement water will come from the day-before's leftover solution.  The other part has to do with the regular daily dose which will come from a fresh solution you make up just prior to dosing the tank.  And, to do the daily water change (the replacement water of which having 1 ounce per gallon of the day-before's leftover solution) before mixing 10 ounces of a new solution of fresh meds, 6 ounces of which to go into the tank as the called-for daily dose.

Sorry to pass along the work involved in doing daily water changes.  I know they're a pain, I've done them nearly every day for months.  Our Betta recently went into a Bio-Spira bath, though.  It's a long story, but if his fin rot continues, he'll be in a cycled tank and finally I'll be able to forgo water changes during his treatment periods.

  • Thread Starter
  • #5
! I just pulled out the pack of M2 I just bought on Friday - there are only 8 tablets in it, 9 cost $8 US) and the expiry date says 08/05!!! >
So that screws that idea, and I will take it back.

I am left with Maracyn (8 tabs) and Trisulfa ( 2pkgs - 8 pkgs ea pkg - powder - use 1 pack to treat 10G) Repeat every 24 hrs for 5 days.

Ya, by dilution I meant dissolving the tab/powder in the H20 and adding to tank.

Can I use the same instructions for The Trisulfa? And is 25% water change daily ok? or better to use Maracyn? ( Not that I believe any of them are any good at this point!)

Pulling my hair out - maybe I was never meant to have a fish!! Val :'(
  • #6
Don't get discouraged Val. You're doing a fine job. Fin rot can just be very complicated to get rid of once they get it. Everyone here will tell you that. Yes you should still be able to do the same measurements. Just follow the amount directions on the box.

I don't understand why the store would have a med that is 2 yrs old on their shelves. I would think that they would check everything that has an expiration date on it and dispose of them. Natalie
  • Thread Starter
  • #7
This was the store in Minnesota I spoke of in another thread. I just found it, and they had like 30 bettas in dirty, dirty vases, with plants, etc. ( However, they were huge and "looked" healthy. ) Of the twenty or so other aquariums, over half were cruddy ; cloudy, icky. She told me Bettas don'e get fin rot it must be something else....

They only had two little packs of M & M2 which I thought I would get since my F& S order had been delayed. The M is ok. the store wasn't clean either and I hate the idea of having to go back. However..... I will. There was a huge red betta I would love to rescue, however, I really, really have to do right by Neptune first and get my head wrapped around all this stuff. LOL

Thanks, Nat. Maybe things will look brighter in the morning. Val
  • #8
She obviously doesn't know what she's talking about. I don't know if I would trust that store. It's the onlt store near you? Natalie
LZ Floyd
  • #9
Everytime I have to get fish meds I go in thinking that the first thing I'll do is check the expiration date on the meds before I buy them.  I don't think I've ever really done it, though.  Oh well, it's the thought that counts, right?

As for the dosages, they should match with the M2 schedule.  Day 1 won't be a Maracyn 2 double, though.

I'm going to suggest you do a 2 gallon daily water change.  It won't consume any more meds and doing a 1/3 water change seems to strike a good balance between clearing the tank of ammonia and not stressing the fish.

And don't let it get you flustered.  Our Betta has had fin rot for months and he's still going strong.  I do think the problem might finally be licked, though.  So, hang in there, you're doing fine.


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