With CO2 and PPS ferts, I still can't beat hair algae

Or rather, I can only beat algae by also starving my plants of light! please help!

I thought I was doing pretty good, have supplemented and balnced everything:
KH (crushed coral in my sump)
GH (equilibrium)
micros (PPS system alternating daily dose)
macros (PPS system alternating daily dose)

TDS, GH, KH, Ph, and nitrate tests all show that I'm in goldilocks territory. My CO2 drop checker shows a nice medium green.

The algae seemed to be under control, plant growth was at a crawl from low light conditions. So I started to increase the lighting, just enough to get my plants to START pearling with O2 bubbles. At that point hair algae takes over the whole tank immedately again. So now plants again are growing well but look like they might not out-compete algae or its an even race at best.

How in god's green earth do you do this? More ferts in the substrate?

Do I just white-knuckle this thing and blast the lights even more, until the plants win? Feels like I'm close, because the swords are producing the best leaves I've ever seen, rapidly, but the old growth goes nuts w/algae at the same time.

I have swords, java fern, hornwort, rotala, val

 

If your plants are doing fine and growing, improving conditions for them further won't work. I assume your plant biomass is modest given the water volume you have.

My experience with EI and CO2 injection is limited. That last time I experienced algae must be at least 10 years ago and involved EI/CO2 for an Iwugumi scape.

I'd probably keep light a little lower and let it develop gradually with more biomass.

Care to share an image of your whole tank?

 

I don't dose anything and the weeds out compete hair algae once they block off the light.

 

In my experience EI/CO2/High Light works best when your tank is totally stuffed with fast-growing stem plants. Essentially, your plants grow so fast in this sort of tank that algae doesn't get time to colonize the leaves. This, though, is high maintenance. Old and/or dead leaves will attract algae super-fast. So, you'll have to constantly remove old leaves and trim back new growth. And, once your stem plants get too full, you'll need to pull them out and replant the tops on a regular basis.

If your tank isn't stuffed with fast-growing stem plants, I don't think EI is the best way to go. I find it's best to turn down the light and cut back on the ferts with tanks that have fewer plants and/or some not-so-fast growing ones. You can still dose EI if you want in a lower light tank. It won't hurt anything, but it's almost certainly a waste of ferts.

 

But feel free to continue using CO2. Never hurts provided you keep injection somewhat stable.

 

I've embraced the fact I'll have algea in the tank.

I run co2, algea eaters galore, plants everywhere. Just have it and probably always will.
I just clean up some with water changes and I don't worry about it anymore.

 

Hey,

uhm ... why is everyone talking about EI, when he doses PPS?

 

I’m just wondering why you’re dosing anything but an all in one for easy , low level plants ?

why even do c02 for these plants ? They’d be super happy in a low tech tank.

 

Frankly, I wrote it wrong with the intention to write from my experience only. On the other hand, even PPS is a little on the overdose side. EI is way, way over (100x over from what I recall from a UKAPS member who actually did some calculations years ago, bashing the approach).

Agree blacksheep. But still, there's a huge difference between CO2 versus non CO2. Injecting CO2 in otherwise low tech conditions seems a little odd, but I don't think it has to be.

I'm actually playing with the idea to have another go with CO2 myself in light of growing java fern trident.....

 

Hey,

uhm ... why is everyone talking about EI, when he doses PPS?

...Good point. For some reason I always thought those were pretty much the same thing. After looking up PPS, I see it is a bit leaner than EI. My mistake.

 

Blast the lights ( don’t know what you’re running ) and you’ll likely fry the low light plants or they’ll get outcompeted by algae. Be it gsa, hair or eventually bba.

Give the swords a root tab and slow everything else down. None of your other plants require c02 . You could happily do a low tech approach with those plants. Don’t over think it. Or add some fast growing stems to soak up the excess.

 

...Good point. For some reason I always thought those were pretty much the same thing. After looking up PPS, I see it is a bit leaner than EI. My mistake.

I don't have any experience with PPS, but I've done a lot with EI. I guess that's just where my mind jumped.

 

Also what’s the kh / gh/ pH ?

why did you add cc to the sump? I won’t pretend to know about c02 as I’m a low tech girl but I’ve had plants pearling in my set ups. Most of those plants are very low tech …

 

Hey,

if it's even PPS pro, it's the complete opposite of EI. PPS pro is limitation, EI is unlimited.

Maybe OP could clear up, what method he exactly uses?

 

Hey,

if it's even PPS pro, it's the complete opposite of EI. PPS pro is limitation, EI is unlimited.

Maybe OP could clear up, what method he exactly uses?

Opposite??

Let me dive in....

Also what’s the kh / gh/ pH ?

why did you add cc to the sump? I won’t pretend to know about c02 as I’m a low tech girl but I’ve had plants pearling in my set ups. Most of those plants are very low tech …

KH/GH/PH ....plants don't care much.

 

Opposite??

Yep, PPS pro aims to keep the nutrients close to 0. Daily dosing, just enough to let the plants grow.
EI aims at "everything and much more of that"

 

Yes refreshed my memory. Great to see all the chelated options again - pH...sigh...

It's lean allright from an EI point of view. Not where I've been the last decade.
I wonder how

Yep, PPS pro aims to keep the nutrients close to 0. Daily dosing, just enough to let the plants grow.

Daily dosing, keeping it a 0. Do these "followers" weigh the dry weight of trimmings?

I'm sure there must a reason why I lost interest...

 

Thanks for all the responses! Its helpful to hear different perspectives

The swords have been thoroughly root-tabbed and seem to be the only plant I have that likes high light, just started growing massive thick leaves.

Yes, I am using PPS and about 1/2 concentration vs the default recipe, which targets adding <1ppm of Nitrate daily.

I think I was aware that my tank is somewhat under-planted for the light and ferts but yesterday I took a view from above the top of the tank and asked myself "how much of the light output is hitting foliage?"

I was surprised at how much real estate I am still failing to cover - this 120G has 24" from front to back that must be covered, but looking in from the front it hides a lot of the gaps.

I will dial back lights somewhat add more stem plans to fill in some more gaps.

 

Hey,

want to post a picture of the tank?

Phosphates are way more important than nitrates in PPS-System, since that is the limiting nutrient. If you run out of nitrates before you run out of phosphates, there's your problem.

 

I can post a pic when the lights come on yeah.

I haven't seen Nitrate go below 5-10ppm since I started doing the PPS with alternating days for micros/macros.

I've embraced the fact I'll have algea in the tank.

I run co2, algea eaters galore, plants everywhere. Just have it and probably always will.
I just clean up some with water changes and I don't worry about it anymore.

I truly think this is the path I'm on. I am finding the balance to where it will be present and persistent but acceptably managed. I suspect if I just back off the lights a little and get some more biomass (through a combination of patience, and buying more), then I will get the result I'm after.

I do have 4 albino bristlenose babies and they've just started to clean the sword leaves regularly, which is a huge win! As they grow I expect I'll get more help.

You can still dose EI if you want in a lower light tank. It won't hurt anything, but it's almost certainly a waste of ferts.

TBF I know this is not a waste of ferts in my setup, because nothing grew at all until I added them. I was perpetually at 0ppm Nitrate. But this is PPS not EI so not as much waste, in any case

 

I suspect if I just back off the lights a little and get some more biomass (through a combination of patience, and buying more), then I will get the result I'm after.

I think so to. And it matters even more in high energy tanks, as everything favours algae in those conditions.

In general, there's a difference between fast growth and health. It is not the same. Fast growth, induced by PAR, and deficiencies (nutrients/CO2) can occur simultaneously.

Not all nutrients are equally involved in growth. CO2 and N being the most important contributors.

I think keeping the lights lower than your nutrients/CO2 supply, is not a bad approach at all. But I don't have the formula.

 

here's a picture! on the right side of the tank I have 3 swords, but I severely stunted two of them by removing algae-covered leaves a few weeks back. On that side is also some fairly new Val that is beginning to spread via runners.
On the left side is another 3 swords, including one raised up and planted in a glass goblet (doing great!), I didn't prune any of these and so they're doing a lot better and the plecos have begun to clean the leaves regularly.
The hornwort was added a week ago and is just finished the initial browning and now surging with green growth

I think its really about patience, I was trying to crank too much light (2x kessil tuna sun 360 @ 80% peak) by being impatient. I have returned to the factory setting which ramps up more gradually and maxes out closer to 65%.

 

Nerite snails will eat the algae and balance the ecosystem. Put in enough snails so that they keep the tank in balance. Siamese algae eater is a great fish too to have.

 

here's a picture! on the right side of the tank I have 3 swords, but I severely stunted two of them by removing algae-covered leaves a few weeks back. On that side is also some fairly new Val that is beginning to spread via runners.
On the left side is another 3 swords, including one raised up and planted in a glass goblet (doing great!), I didn't prune any of these and so they're doing a lot better and the plecos have begun to clean the leaves regularly.
The hornwort was added a week ago and is just finished the initial browning and now surging with green growth

I think its really about patience, I was trying to crank too much light (2x kessil tuna sun 360 @ 80% peak) by being impatient. I have returned to the factory setting which ramps up more gradually and maxes out closer to 65%.

I assume you also run the tank pretty warm and steady. You're not making things easier.
That said, our hobby is about probability management.

I'd keep the lights low for the next few months and add more stem plants.

 

Nerite snails will eat the algae and balance the ecosystem. Put in enough snails so that they keep the tank in balance. Siamese algae eater is a great fish too to have.

I tried some Nerites a few months back and they were mostly DOA. Not sure if I did something wrong or if I had a bad source? I had to find them one by one as they died and stank things up, but never saw them do any real damage to the algae.

The SAE would indeed be perfect, I was looking at these too, if I can find some that are big enough to not be eaten by my gold severum.

I assume you also run the tank pretty warm and steady. You're not making things easier.
That said, our hobby is about probability management.

My water temp right now is 73F

 

About 50 to 100% more plant mass should help a lot.

 

Many folks make a classic mistake when introducing fish or snails. They open the bag and then let it float in the tank. That kills the animals. You can red about it here: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://www.blueridgekoi.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pH-and-Ammonia.pdf

Many fish or snails die when introduced into a tank because the bag is opened, allowing the C02 to escape, raising the pH of the water and converting all the ammonium to ammonia.

 

New sign of success: Happy to report that an old java fern i thought I had killed off is becoming re-established here, hidden behind a sword.

Many folks make a classic mistake when introducing fish or snails. They open the bag and then let it float in the tank. That kills the animals. You can red about it here: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://www.blueridgekoi.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pH-and-Ammonia.pdf

Many fish or snails die when introduced into a tank because the bag is opened, allowing the C02 to escape, raising the pH of the water and converting all the ammonium to ammonia.

This was a while ago but I don't recall any reason I would have opened the bag for the float.

To be clear they were not actually DOA, I saw them move around for a few days, but they effectively did nothing before turning up dead.

 

I’m just wondering why you’re dosing anything but an all in one for easy , low level plants ?

why even do c02 for these plants ? They’d be super happy in a low tech tank.

Something is very wrong with Easy Green IMO, I dosed it at 4x the recommended dosage and still was reading <5ppm Nitrate. With dry mixed ferts I easily get to the concentrations I'm after, no overdosing required. My plants love it, they grow much faster and I'm much more confident in the Nitrate test result. But I got too excited, increased lighting too early. this induced new algae

All liquid ferts are hugely overpriced for dosing this volume IMO.

TBF this tank was low tech with root tabs only and low light, for many months, my plants were simply not growing. Probably because Nitrate never even reached 5ppm.

 

Something is very wrong with Easy Green IMO, I dosed it at 4x the recommended dosage and still was reading <5ppm Nitrate.

That's because Easy Green has no nitrates.
It adds nitrogen in a different form, nitrate tests won't show that.

 

That's because Easy Green has no nitrates.
It adds nitrogen in a different form, nitrate tests won't show that.

OK WOW so umm, that would be nice of them to put in the instructions here that tell me to "try to maintain 20-50ppm Nitrate" - do they not expect people to reach for the API Nitrate liquid test when they read that? unbelievable!

Whatever the difference is, it also matters to plants. They want what I'm mixing, they responded better.

 

I would assume they mean "add while you have 20 - 50ppm nitrates in your tank" ... which I personally find an incredibly high recommendation, even for heavily planted, ultra hightech, floodlight tanks.

I never went higher than a stable 30ppm in nitrates (except once for testing the stability of the system) in my plant-tank, which consisted of basically 70% of the water column being plants.