Will two females go through the spawning process?

Good evening Fishlore folks!
Have a question about my angels. On Christmas eve I moved 2 of my platinum angels into a tank to see if they would spawn. This morning I noticed them cleaning a spot and noticed they were both very plump in the belly, so I thought maybe they were both female. About an hour ago, one started laying eggs and the other was right with her and sometimes went up the eggs behind her but doesnt seem to be laying eggs. There is zero aggression or protection of the eggs from the other angel and they seem to be working in tandem like I think a male and female would. I have never had angels spawn before and wasnt positive about the sexes when I moved them into the breeding tank. I picked these because they seemed to have separated from the others in the larger tank.

My question is, because they are both so plump, is it possible they could both be females? Would 2 females go through the entire spawning process as a male and female would and not show any aggression towards the other? I tried to get pics, but they just wouldnt cooperate.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome! Thanks!

EDIT: I was finally able to get a pic. The one on the right is for sure a female as she is laying the eggs. The one on the left seems to have a smaller breeding tube, male?

 

Looks like female on the right, male on the left. Females will have a bigger breeding tube seeing as eggs are much larger than the milt.

 

Watch to see if you get eggs again very soon.
I had a pair? that laid eggs for months until they finally laid eggs two days apart.
They were both females!
The vents look M/F, but the "male' could be a female just showing a little later and may more fully develop in a few days?

 

I once had a blue acara and a Cichlasoma amazonarum pair up, they stayed together for over two months and spawned on numerous occasions, each time the eggs only lasting 2 days. The acara was laying the eggs and the Cichlasoma had a small pointed breeding tube and was apparently trying to fertilize them, I was convinced it was a male, but it later turned out to be a "confused?" female and spawned normally with a male of its own species. If only a little of the breeding tube is showing it can look like a male. I believe it is fairly common for two female angels to pair up. ... anyway wait and see!

 

Yes. Its possible to have two females that pair and go through the spawning motions together and put down unfertilized eggs, and the other female will go through the motions like shes fertilizing them, but she cant.
But pretty sure it's male and female and you are right, female on the right male on the left in the picture.
They seem young still though so it may not work out well until they get it figured out and water/ health conditions have to be perfect.

If all the eggs didn't turn white in the first 12 hours there some level of viability and fertilization happening. If no fertilization they all turn white pretty quick. if the male is missing some fertilization you see lines of eggs that turn white, if some of the eggs are just bad from the start those will turn white pretty quick. Over 3 days some more will turn white, those were fertilized but didn't make it.

Be ready for disappointment, it rarely works out on the first half dozen to dozen shots even with perfect conditions. My pair still doesn't get it right every time and scraps the spawn frequently rather than getting a low wiggler rate and even lower fry rate.
When mine spawn they don't eat and just tend to the spawn, so they won't run themselves down tending to it unless it's gonna be big enough that a lot will survive to freeswimming. They rather eat them and take that nutrition back and try again sooner that to spend the energy on something that doesn't have a great shot.

Just letting you know how it goes. It's really hard to get the stars aligned and the spawn and the parents and everything go right in an aquarium and get them to freeswimming, and then they have to eat.
Just have to keep trying and you'll learn right along with them.

A lot of breeders jar rear the eggs themselves so the parents can't scrap the spawns by eating the eggs just to get something out of it and progress faster, the parents will move along also and spawn again sooner.

Best of luck!
I have what I believe are 24 males. Some look just like females some are obvious males with large nuchal humps. They all are about 11 months old and should have matured. Maybe I still get surprised, but I'm pretty confident they are all males now. The really dominant fish will get a head hump, even a female can but it's smaller than a dominant male, the subordinate angelfish just don't develop much of the head hump at all and can be confused between M/F by appearance.

 

Thanks everyone for all the great information! Im 16 hours in and only have 7 white eggs so far out of 100-ish total. Both adults did eat this morning and both are randomly tending to the eggs. Here to hoping they are m/f and the eggs are viable. Going to let the parents raise them naturally this first time out and see how things go. I'll post an update later this evening or in the morning.

 

Thanks everyone for all the great information! Im 16 hours in and only have 7 white eggs so far out of 100-ish total. Both adults did eat this morning and both are randomly tending to the eggs. Here to hoping they are m/f and the eggs are viable. Going to let the parents raise them naturally this first time out and see how things go. I'll post an update later this evening or in the morning.

If you think you see 100ish, it's probably closer to 200ish. Lol if you try to count them, it counts up quick in a tiny area, like a 5x5mm space will have 20-40 eggs.

If they haven't all turned white by now, definitely it's a male and female.

The eggs hatch faster at 80-82F vs. 76-78F. No idea what temperature you have but if you find the eggs fungusing before they reach wigglers and the fungus taking over killing eggs, you can speed up hatching and beat most of the fungus by raising the temp a few degrees on the next try.
Cooler the water is the longer it takes to hatch. 80-82F they can hatch between 48 and 60 hours where at like 76-78F it can take 72 hours+ if they fungus the fungus grows and spreads pretty rapidly and it can take over and kill off the eggs before they get there. Something to be aware of if it happens. Fungus will maybe start after the first 24 hours from the eggs that turned white, the parents may pick them out and they do eat some good eggs when they do try to get the white ones.

When I jar reared and removed white eggs myself, I also removed good eggs with them by accident, it's just going to happen to the parents or you, so it's the same result either way. It why they lay so many eggs each time they spawn. Best of luck!

 

Well, final update for this round I guess. By yesterday afternoon 50% of the eggs had turned white, by this morning they were100% white. Somewhat disappointed, but not totally unexpected for their first time out. Better luck next time.

Thanks again everyone!

 

Well, final update for this round I guess. By yesterday afternoon 50% of the eggs had turned white, by this morning they were100% white. Somewhat disappointed, but not totally unexpected for their first time out. Better luck next time.

Thanks again everyone!

I think it is likely that they are two females in that case, its unlikely that a male would fail to fertilize all of the eggs. The one that looks like a male may just not have the breeding tube fully out, exactly this happened with the fish I mentioned above.

 

That's what I figured. Is it possible I could leave the still plump one in the tank and move the one that laid back with the other 4, then TRY to pick a male from the other 4 to put in with the plump one? Or do they need to all go together and let them pair naturally?

 

That is a difficult one - I am not sure how successful you wold be trying to select a potential mate, its usually best to let them pick their own - but on the other hand if you put both back into the main tank they may well stay together as a pair. Maybe just move one of them back with the others for now and see if a new pair forms?

 

Just no. If they weren't fertilized they would have been all white by 12 hours in. Maybe pH is too hard, maybe too much bacteria and not clean enough, poor circulation or aeration, poor fertilization and fungus, maybe old eggs that should have been laid sooner, Maybe a combination of issues.

Seriously, from my experience unfertilized eggs turn white in the next couple hours after being laid, with it all turning white in less than the first 12 hours. I get individual ones turning white while they are still laying them that got missed.
If any made it 24 hours or longer without turning white they were fertilized and the eggs just failed before hatching for other reasons.

I do think you have a M/F pair based on the info given and the picture of the fish. Spawns fail, especially first spawns, the fish need to learn what they are doing as they go, mistakes and losses teach them the wrong things that they shouldn't do and they get better with future spawns by learning what doesn't work.

My pair. Male is the gold marble, female is the platinum. He bigger and fatter than she is by a lot, and needs to be, she's mean and will kill lesser males that can't take it and back down from her.

 

Seriously, from my experience unfertilized eggs turn white in the next couple hours after being laid, with it all turning white in less than the first 12 hours

That is not necessarily the case, at least with other cichlids. In the case of the blue acara mentioned above, only a small portion of the eggs turned white by the time they all disappeared after two days, and usually none turned white on the first day. And I know for certain they were not fertilized as both fish turned out to be females. It might have something to do with the water, mine is very soft with low conductivity so maybe fewer pathogens to attack the eggs? I don't know just guessing. I think its unlikely for all eggs to go white if fertilized, but I suppose there could be other reasons as mentioned by SparkyJones.

 

Just no. If they weren't fertilized they would have been all white by 12 hours in. Maybe pH is too hard, maybe too much bacteria and not clean enough, poor circulation or aeration, poor fertilization and fungus, maybe old eggs that should have been laid sooner, Maybe a combination of issues.



Seriously, from my experience unfertilized eggs turn white in the next couple hours after being laid, with it all turning white in less than the first 12 hours. I get individual ones turning white while they are still laying them that got missed.

If any made it 24 hours or longer without turning white they were fertilized and the eggs just failed before hatching for other reasons.



I do think you have a M/F pair based on the info given and the picture of the fish. Spawns fail, especially first spawns, the fish need to learn what they are doing as they go, mistakes and losses teach them the wrong things that they shouldn't do and they get better with future spawns by learning what doesn't work.

Thank ya Sparky. Half the eggs definitely made it past 24 hours. Tank has been up and running 15 months. I added a small hanging internal filter with a slow flow rate to go with the 2 double sponge filters that the tank (20 tall) has been running since setup. Tested the water and came up with...

Temp - 81.0
Ammonia - 0.0
Nitrite - .0.0
Nitrate - 10.0 (Tap runs 5.0)
PH - 7.4-7.6
GH - 9 deg
KH - 3 deg
TDS - 232

The PH is on the upper end of their acceptible range, but I dont chase PH so I figure it fine.

Did a 25% WC and cleaned the sponges in the removed tank water.

One thing I did notice that I thought was odd is they did not tend to the egg nearly as much as I had expected. Like I said yesterday, both parents "randomly" tended to the eggs. Meaning they were both off in other areas of the tank forraging or fighting (looked like WWIII for about half an hour), maybe 50% of the time or more. I was expecting at least on to be tending at all times but attributed the lack of attention to being young and that there are no other threats in the tank.

The fish are still pretty young as I just got them on Dec 7 and they were only about the size of a half dollar coin.

Will see how it goes next round!

That is not necessarily the case, at least with other cichlids. In the case of the blue acara mentioned above, only a small portion of the eggs turned white by the time they all disappeared after two days, and usually none turned white on the first day. And I know for certain they were not fertilized as both fish turned out to be females. It might have something to do with the water, mine is very soft with low conductivity so maybe fewer pathogens to attack the eggs? I don't know just guessing. I think its unlikely for all eggs to go white if fertilized, but I suppose there could be other reasons as mentioned by SparkyJones.

Thanks TClare. I often see a few of my Ram eggs turn in the first few hours and a few more the next day so Im not sure how long it would normally take. Since this is my firs Angel spawn, Im learning along with them.

Will have to see how it goes on the next round I guess before making any drastic changes.

 

Watch the others vent to not if it grows in near future.

 

If its their first or 2nd spawning attempt, let it ride a bit longer a couple more spawns. See what happens. Theres genetic differences from fish to fish in size and shape, I can't rule out the possibility of two females completely but I'm 95+% sure from the picture it's a male and female and it's just inexperience that's your main problem which will get better with successive attempts at it.

 

Just wanted to drop in with an update. The pair spawned again 5 days ago, again. within 24 hours half the eggs turned white, the next morning (36 hours) all eggs were white. Going to try removing the cone and eggs next time and move them to another tank to hatch. Doubt its a water quality issue as I do 25% changes 3x a week and the pair are the only occupants. Ammonia and nitrate stay zero, nitrates always about 5-10 as my tap water is 5-10. Tank is a 20 tall, a year and a half old, bare bottomed, with 2 double sponge filters and a very small power filter. I also keep an indian almond leaf in the tank. Wish me luch on the next round.

 

Turn your filters flow down.
Slow the sponges also when you note they are active again.
Good luck!

 

Just wanted to drop in with an update. The pair spawned again 5 days ago, again. within 24 hours half the eggs turned white, the next morning (36 hours) all eggs were white. Going to try removing the cone and eggs next time and move them to another tank to hatch. Doubt its a water quality issue as I do 25% changes 3x a week and the pair are the only occupants. Ammonia and nitrate stay zero, nitrates always about 5-10 as my tap water is 5-10. Tank is a 20 tall, a year and a half old, bare bottomed, with 2 double sponge filters and a very small power filter. I also keep an indian almond leaf in the tank. Wish me luch on the next round.

Angelfish females don't generally lay eggs unless they receive environmental cues that it's a good time to develop and lay them. Usually it's a males pheromones the female picks up, but it can be her own reflection, or plants waving or water changes that drop the temp a bit also, and she thinking "there's a male!" or "waters great for babies!" and she'll lay eggs solo or with another female.

I'm still going to say theres a couple possibilities, 1. at first the male might not be mature enough to fertilize, and even though he goes through the motions, he's just not ready yet. it can take a few spawns until he catches up to the female. 2. the male just can't get fertilizing right yet, just no good at it and needs a lot of practice still. 3. the male is sterile and can't fertilize the eggs. #1 and #2 happen frequently. #3 can happen, but because #1 and #2 happen a lot, that should be assumed what's going on and just be more patient.

From the picture, I do think it's a male though on the left and the female on the right. I think the pair just needs more time. if it's inexperience or age, it sorts out in 4 spawns usually (2 months). if it's a genetic reason, by spawn 8-12, you should come to that conclusion of an infertile male if it's still getting nowhere. by then.

If what I believe is a male is a female, both females will lay eggs. So if you see spawns like 3x a month it's too fast for 1 angel female to do by herself. it takes 14 days for them to develop eggs and a little longer to get them laid. 1 female can't spawn 3x in a month. 10 days is too short.

I fail completely with eggs for the first 4 attempts or so with a pair to varying degrees, but the first 1 or 2 attempts are miserable failures. By around attempt 4-6 I'm getting wrigglers. and then shortly after I get to freeswimmers that need to eat.
It's not fast, they both need to be mature, and then know what they are supposed to do and that takes time, and when they get to the next stage, there's just more errors as they learn more. they get further and further along with each attempt, at least they should. Sometimes, the timing just isnt' right and they scrap the attempt.

it's why they spawn like every 15 days, and why they lay like 100-1000 eggs at a time. Just takes patience and keeping up on the water quality, food quality, and temperature stability.

Just be patient and ride it out. worry about it not working and thinking about having to make a change if you are at this same point still 3 months from now. there hasn't been enough time. Angels can reach maturity at 6 months to 10 months old. the male might just be behind the female by a couple months.

 

Angelfish females don't generally lay eggs unless they receive environmental cues that it's a good time to develop and lay them. Usually it's a males pheromones the female picks up, but it can be her own reflection, or plants waving or water changes that drop the temp a bit also, and she thinking "there's a male!" or "waters great for babies!" and she'll lay eggs solo or with another female.

I'm still going to say theres a couple possibilities, 1. at first the male might not be mature enough to fertilize, and even though he goes through the motions, he's just not ready yet. it can take a few spawns until he catches up to the female. 2. the male just can't get fertilizing right yet, just no good at it and needs a lot of practice still. 3. the male is sterile and can't fertilize the eggs. #1 and #2 happen frequently. #3 can happen, but because #1 and #2 happen a lot, that should be assumed what's going on and just be more patient.

From the picture, I do think it's a male though on the left and the female on the right. I think the pair just needs more time. if it's inexperience or age, it sorts out in 4 spawns usually (2 months). if it's a genetic reason, by spawn 8-12, you should come to that conclusion of an infertile male if it's still getting nowhere. by then.

If what I believe is a male is a female, both females will lay eggs. So if you see spawns like 3x a month it's too fast for 1 angel female to do by herself. it takes 14 days for them to develop eggs and a little longer to get them laid. 1 female can't spawn 3x in a month. 10 days is too short.

I fail completely with eggs for the first 4 attempts or so with a pair to varying degrees, but the first 1 or 2 attempts are miserable failures. By around attempt 4-6 I'm getting wrigglers. and then shortly after I get to freeswimmers that need to eat.
It's not fast, they both need to be mature, and then know what they are supposed to do and that takes time, and when they get to the next stage, there's just more errors as they learn more. they get further and further along with each attempt, at least they should. Sometimes, the timing just isnt' right and they scrap the attempt.

it's why they spawn like every 15 days, and why they lay like 100-1000 eggs at a time. Just takes patience and keeping up on the water quality, food quality, and temperature stability.

Just be patient and ride it out. worry about it not working and thinking about having to make a change if you are at this same point still 3 months from now. there hasn't been enough time. Angels can reach maturity at 6 months to 10 months old. the male might just be behind the female by a couple months.

Thank you for the excellent explanation SparkyJones The group of 6 this pair came from were only about a quarter to half dollar size when I got them, in Nov I believe, so I suspect they are still pretty young and like me, have a lot of learning to do. It was pretty quick for them to spawn again I think, 13 days between spawns to be exact.

I definitely understand the learning process for them, and ME. I have a pair of Bolivian Rams that spawned like clockwork for a few months but ate every single egg each of the first 5 spawns. The 6th spawn I decided to try to hatch them myself and ended up with about 125 wigglers, that 50% died in wiggler stage, then the other 50% as free swimmers. I tried again myself on the 7th spawn, and again got about 125 wigglers. About 100 made it to free swimming but I learned I needed more microscopic food for them at that stage and didnt get it onsite till about 5 days into the freeswimming stage. I was able to get TWO of those freeswimmers to survive and they are now about 3/4 an inch. Did even more research and got EVERYTHING I needed on hand and ready (golden pearls, java moss, vinegar eels) before the next spawn. About 10 or 12 days ago, I got a new spawn, got 300+ wiggler and about 75% of those made it through wiggler, freeswimmers, and to size enough to eat BBS a couple days ago and they are looking GREAT! SO much more active that the previous 2 spawns I tried.

Live and learn!

 

Thank you for the excellent explanation SparkyJones The group of 6 this pair came from were only about a quarter to half dollar size when I got them, in Nov I believe, so I suspect they are still pretty young and like me, have a lot of learning to do. It was pretty quick for them to spawn again I think, 13 days between spawns to be exact.

I definitely understand the learning process for them, and ME. I have a pair of Bolivian Rams that spawned like clockwork for a few months but ate every single egg each of the first 5 spawns. The 6th spawn I decided to try to hatch them myself and ended up with about 125 wigglers, that 50% died in wiggler stage, then the other 50% as free swimmers. I tried again myself on the 7th spawn, and again got about 125 wigglers. About 100 made it to free swimming but I learned I needed more microscopic food for them at that stage and didnt get it onsite till about 5 days into the freeswimming stage. I was able to get TWO of those freeswimmers to survive and they are now about 3/4 an inch. Did even more research and got EVERYTHING I needed on hand and ready (golden pearls, java moss, vinegar eels) before the next spawn. About 10 or 12 days ago, I got a new spawn, got 300+ wiggler and about 75% of those made it through wiggler, freeswimmers, and to size enough to eat BBS a couple days ago and they are looking GREAT! SO much more active that the previous 2 spawns I tried.

Live and learn!

Angels are very similar maybe larger spawns though once they get it nailed down. it's kind of just let them do their thing for a while, see if the eggs get fertilized, then you can decide if it's worth pulling them and raising the fry yourself. if they aren't getting fertilized, there's no point to doing it really. 13 days is fine. kind of depends on temperature, how fast the fishes metabolism is working how fast they can develop. 13 days, 15 days,, maybe even 12 or 16, or longer. averages 1-2 spawns a month, it's never been 3.

most likely quarter size is about 3-4 months old for the average growing angel, some larger, some smaller.

given the timeline, they are probably 6-7 months old now, and some fish just mature late around 10-11 months, while some mature early at around 6 months. and average is around 8 months or so.
I'd just let them ride longer and worry about it in 3 months if the eggs all still keep dying, by then the male should be mature at that point and eggs progressing. if nothing by then, I'd be thinking he's sterile and poor genetics and a bad candidate. Worst case, She can be re-paired though, He'd get pulled to a separate tank, she'll think he died and not coming back I have the best luck just setting her lose with the males again and letting her pick her next choice and then sending them both to the breeding tank. before returnign the bad male to the group of males again.

Other people just stick a different male into the breeding tank with her and hope it works out. and put the male that's not working out back with their other males. .Sounds like you got a good idea on how to do the food which is a lot of the battle once you're over this first hump.

 

If what I believe is a male is a female, both females will lay eggs.

Not necessarily, well I don't have experience breeding angels, but in other cichlids yes. The Andinoacara + Cichlasoma pair I mentioned earlier spawned on numerous occasions before splitting up. Only the acara ever laid the eggs, though both were definitely female (unless the Cichlasoma later underwent a sex change). And the breeding tube of the Cichlasoma at that time looked just like a male. I still would not discount the possibility that they are two females. It is strange to me that all the eggs turn white. I am not saying this is necessarily the case, and I do agree that one looks more like a male, it could be any of the things mentioned above, you will have to wait and see.

 

Well, we have eggs again! 24 hours in and about 20% are white. Both seem to be fanning much more this round. Maybe "3rd times a charm"... I hope.

 

In my aquarium I have 11 angels now, only 2 have actually laid eggs and 2 males have paired up with the 1 female (she’s laid eggs with a white male and also a black marble), the smaller female has laid eggs however she wasnt even paired up with a male oddly. My other angels are too immature to tell still. In my opinion you have a male in the left and female is on the right based on the tubes as others have also said. Hopefully 3rd time is a charm for you, sometimes the males don’t get it right for a bit.

 

Good evening folks, Im back! New information coming at you. The eggs that were laid last Saturday ended up all turning white and being eaten by Monday morning, around that 36-hour mark again. But now, ONLY 7 days later, I have a ton of eggs again... about 3x more than any of the previous spawns. They were laid yesterday or very early today sometime, I didnt catch it happening this time because I was expecting it to be at least another week before another spawn. Would it now be safe to say for sure I have 2 females with the spawns only being 6 or 7 days apart? If so, would it be best to drop both females back in the other tank with the 4 others of unknown sex and see if either will pair off with a male, providing there are any?

I really appreciate all the info you folks have provide me with while I try to work this this angel breeding process! And just as a side note, the Bolivian Rams I mentioned previously... that last spawn will be 4 weeks old in 3 days and I still have about 100+ beautiful little fry that are thriving and growing well!

 

Good evening folks, Im back! New information coming at you. The eggs that were laid last Saturday ended up all turning white and being eaten by Monday morning, around that 36-hour mark again. But now, ONLY 7 days later, I have a ton of eggs again... about 3x more than any of the previous spawns. They were laid yesterday or very early today sometime, I didnt catch it happening this time because I was expecting it to be at least another week before another spawn. Would it now be safe to say for sure I have 2 females with the spawns only being 6 or 7 days apart? If so, would it be best to drop both females back in the other tank with the 4 others of unknown sex and see if either will pair off with a male, providing there are any?

I really appreciate all the info you folks have provide me with while I try to work this this angel breeding process! And just as a side note, the Bolivian Rams I mentioned previously... that last spawn will be 4 weeks old in 3 days and I still have about 100+ beautiful little fry that are thriving and growing well!

If they all turn white, yeah, with the 7 day window it would be safe to assume both are females. Spawning after 6-7 days is highly suspect to be both females but the timing differences could explain the breeding tube size differences in your previous picture.

If you are trying to pair and spawn angels, and pretty safe to assume those two are females, I personally would move 1 of the females to the other tank and move two of the unknowns with the other female and see if you can get a new pair, or two pairs out of it. Keep the females and move the unknowns around until a new pairing forms.

Be sure of your females though, when they pair again it will be faster to figure out who is who. With my angels it took me forever to remember the identifying differences between fish so I wouldn't confuse one with another. Dorsal shapes are useful identifiers, if they are too similarly marked/patterned, usually their markings are enough to clearly identify individuals.

Females are aggressive and territorial, when you go for re-pairing, the unwanted males are usually gonna become the 3rd wheel and be chased off or killed if it can't get away, if you intend, or just have space for the one pair, you're probably going to want to rehome the extra female so you can have a tank for the one female you keep for spawning with her partner, and then your other tank for males that won't get too crazy on you because no female to get aggressive about.
1 female and 2 unknowns per tank until you get a new pair again, then try again with the new pairing. The rest can go to the other tank again, and if they pair a 2nd time, maybe the extra female will need to be rehomed unless you have another tank for the 2nd pair. Depends on how much aggression you have, how they behave, if the pair are trying to kill the extras it's not gonna work without the pair having their own space.
Angels from my experience are usually male heavy, a group of 6 from a spawn normally is 1 female, maybe 2. It would be odd for all of your 6 to be females or even 4 females out of the 6.

 

If they all turn white, yeah, with the 7 day window it would be safe to assume both are females. Spawning after 6-7 days is highly suspect to be both females but the timing differences could explain the breeding tube size differences in your previous picture.

If you are trying to pair and spawn angels, and pretty safe to assume those two are females, I personally would move 1 of the females to the other tank and move two of the unknowns with the other female and see if you can get a new pair, or two pairs out of it. Keep the females and move the unknowns around until a new pairing forms.

Be sure of your females though, when they pair again it will be faster to figure out who is who. With my angels it took me forever to remember the identifying differences between fish so I wouldn't confuse one with another. Dorsal shapes are useful identifiers, if they are too similarly marked/patterned, usually their markings are enough to clearly identify individuals.

Females are aggressive and territorial, when you go for re-pairing, the unwanted males are usually gonna become the 3rd wheel and be chased off or killed if it can't get away, if you intend, or just have space for the one pair, you're probably going to want to rehome the extra female so you can have a tank for the one female you keep for spawning with her partner, and then your other tank for males that won't get too crazy on you because no female to get aggressive about.
1 female and 2 unknowns per tank until you get a new pair again, then try again with the new pairing. The rest can go to the other tank again, and if they pair a 2nd time, maybe the extra female will need to be rehomed unless you have another tank for the 2nd pair. Depends on how much aggression you have, how they behave, if the pair are trying to kill the extras it's not gonna work without the pair having their own space.
Angels from my experience are usually male heavy, a group of 6 from a spawn normally is 1 female, maybe 2. It would be odd for all of your 6 to be females or even 4 females out of the 6.Well, got up this morning to about 50 white eggs, which were eaten thoroughout today.

If they all turn white, yeah, with the 7 day window it would be safe to assume both are females. Spawning after 6-7 days is highly suspect to be both females but the timing differences could explain the breeding tube size differences in your previous picture.

If you are trying to pair and spawn angels, and pretty safe to assume those two are females, I personally would move 1 of the females to the other tank and move two of the unknowns with the other female and see if you can get a new pair, or two pairs out of it. Keep the females and move the unknowns around until a new pairing forms.

Be sure of your females though, when they pair again it will be faster to figure out who is who. With my angels it took me forever to remember the identifying differences between fish so I wouldn't confuse one with another. Dorsal shapes are useful identifiers, if they are too similarly marked/patterned, usually their markings are enough to clearly identify individuals.

Females are aggressive and territorial, when you go for re-pairing, the unwanted males are usually gonna become the 3rd wheel and be chased off or killed if it can't get away, if you intend, or just have space for the one pair, you're probably going to want to rehome the extra female so you can have a tank for the one female you keep for spawning with her partner, and then your other tank for males that won't get too crazy on you because no female to get aggressive about.
1 female and 2 unknowns per tank until you get a new pair again, then try again with the new pairing. The rest can go to the other tank again, and if they pair a 2nd time, maybe the extra female will need to be rehomed unless you have another tank for the 2nd pair. Depends on how much aggression you have, how they behave, if the pair are trying to kill the extras it's not gonna work without the pair having their own space.
Angels from my experience are usually male heavy, a group of 6 from a spawn normally is 1 female, maybe 2. It would be odd for all of your 6 to be females or even 4 females out of the 6.

Well, got up this morning to about 50 eggs remaining, all white. They have been eaten throughout the day, in between all the fighting. So Im gonna go with them being 2 females. Filled up the 29gal that been setting for the last couple weeks, pulled a well-seasoned sponge from the female pleco tank and squeezed it in the tank then hooked it up to the new air pump and dropped it in. Threw in a couple cups of Fritzzyme7, turned on the heater, put on the lid and voila, new angel breeding tank. lol.

So, then I tun to the 54 gal that holds the other 4 angels and what do I see... 2 of them chasing the other 2 all around the tank. I give them a minute so that I can start looking to see who I want to pair with who and low and behold, the chasing pair retires the chase and goes back to one of the broadleaf plastic plants in the tank and starts FANNING EGGS (only about 10 left at that point)! I've been so busy watching the first pair, I hadnt even looked at the other 4 much.

So, at this point, I think I'll take the new pair and put them in the new 29, and move one of the previous females into the 54 with the other 2 unsexed, and leave 1 previous female alone in the 20 high. If a new pair forms in the 54, Ill move the odd one in with the lone female. If any aggression gets out of hand, I can move a couple to the 75, 55 or one of the 40 breeders.

Sound like a decent plan?

 

Yes, that sounds like a plan - good luck!

 

So, I took pics of all 6 fish and noted the distinguishing markings, so I have fish 1 through 6. 1 and 2 were the ones that spawned several times in the 20g, with 1 being the confirmed female and 2 likely another female due to the timing of the last spawn. 3, 4, 5, and 6 were the four in the 54g, with 3 and 4 being the ones protecting the last few eggs (before eating them all) last weekend.

I moved 3 and 4 to the 29g, put 2 in the 54g with 5 and 6 and left 1 alone in the 20g. 2 and 6 did not like 5 at all, so I moved 5 into the 20g with 1, the 100% known female. Well, 1 and 5 fell in love right away, and they are currently spawning!

Feeling pretty confident they are M/F this time!!

Fingers crossed!

 

So, I took pics of all 6 fish and noted the distinguishing markings, so I have fish 1 through 6. 1 and 2 were the ones that spawned several times in the 20g, with 1 being the confirmed female and 2 likely another female due to the timing of the last spawn. 3, 4, 5, and 6 were the four in the 54g, with 3 and 4 being the ones protecting the last few eggs (before eating them all) last weekend.

I moved 3 and 4 to the 29g, put 2 in the 54g with 5 and 6 and left 1 alone in the 20g. 2 and 6 did not like 5 at all, so I moved 5 into the 20g with 1, the 100% known female. Well, 1 and 5 fell in love right away, and they are currently spawning!

Feeling pretty confident they are M/F this time!!

Fingers crossed!

Yes they definitely look like female (1) and male (5). I don't think there is any doubt this time! Good luck!

 

Well, 1&5 kept the eggs for 48 hours, through yesterday evening, with only 30 or 40 turning white. Walked in the room a couple hours later and they were eating ALL the eggs. They looked like piranha going after a chicken leg, it was a madhouse with egg fragments all through the water column. Not sure what caused that. All I can figure is I had been doing water changes on several other tanks earlier, using an electric pump that was fairly noisy so maybe it scared them. Lesson learned.

Good news is that 3&4 were spawning as 1&5 were having eggs for dinner yesterday (24 hours in now and only a half dozen white eggs). Then about an hour ago I noticed 2&6 spawning! Maybe I will have a survivor or two from the two newest spawns. Or, maybe, I'm not cut out to breed angels.

Will follow up in a day or two!

 

I think its very normal for angels to eat their eggs on the first few attempts, that is why many people pull the eggs straight away. They should get better with experience if they stay together however, and I would prefer to be patient and give them a chance to rear their brood. At least only a few went white this time!

 

Mine eat the eggs all the time. They've only actually gone through it and not ate them maybe 5x out of dozens. Conditions have to be perfect, a good size spawn in the hundreds, high fertility rate low white eggs, high water quality and clean and the parent to be well fed before hand and fattened up. and then they have to learn to just eat the white eggs and leave the majority good ones alone. Sometimes they don't eat any and the fungus takes over, sometime they get carried away, eat too much then just keep going to start over.

They are looking for the best shot at the most of them surviving because they will be at work for 3 weeks straight watching them and on the defense and not eating. If it's not going to be really productive they will scrap it for a better time later.

Many people put in a slate rock leaned up on the glass or on an object for them to spawn on so once they are done the eggs can be removed easy and put to a separate tank with an airstone to fan them until they hatch and remove the parents from it altogether to remove that variable where they scrap the spawn to try again later at a better time.

Mine screwed it up like the first 8 times, I screwed it up twice before it worked out with the parents getting them the whole way and it still doesn't work out all the time.

 

Mine eat the eggs all the time. They've only actually gone through it and not ate them maybe 5x out of dozens. Conditions have to be perfect, a good size spawn in the hundreds, high fertility rate low white eggs, high water quality and clean and the parent to be well fed before hand and fattened up. and then they have to learn to just eat the white eggs and leave the majority good ones alone. Sometimes they don't eat any and the fungus takes over, sometime they get carried away, eat too much then just keep going to start over.

They are looking for the best shot at the most of them surviving because they will be at work for 3 weeks straight watching them and on the defense and not eating. If it's not going to be really productive they will scrap it for a better time later.

Many people put in a slate rock leaned up on the glass or on an object for them to spawn on so once they are done the eggs can be removed easy and put to a separate tank with an airstone to fan them until they hatch and remove the parents from it altogether to remove that variable where they scrap the spawn to try again later at a better time.

Mine screwed it up like the first 8 times, I screwed it up twice before it worked out with the parents getting them the whole way and it still doesn't work out all the time.

Im going to let them have a couple tries before I start pulling the breeding cone and trying to hatch myself. Id like for the fry to be parent raised in hopes the fry learn to be good parents. I keep several tanks available to fill on a moments notice, anywhere from 2.5 gallon to 20 gallon longs, and several cycled sponges in other tanks. I have to raise my Rams myself as they live in a community tank. I do just as you said... pull whatever they breed on, drop in another container with an air stone for minimal water movement (and a little methelene blue to keep fungus at bay). Seems to work well with the super tiny ram fry.

I think its very normal for angels to eat their eggs on the first few attempts, that is why many people pull the eggs straight away. They should get better with experience if they stay together however, and I would prefer to be patient and give them a chance to rear their brood. At least only a few went white this time!

I think it is normal for the first several tries. Had the same issue with my Rams, then I started pulling them to hatch myself. The fry would have never made it in the community tank where the parents live anyways. Got about 100 of them growing out right now! Im about 99.9% sure I have a m/f pair this time, and the eggs were well fertilized. I was looking really forward to waking up the next morning to a bunch of wigglers. LOL. Watching the other 2 pair spawn yesterday and today and I THINK 3&4 are m/f also, but 2&6 is still questionable if there actually f/f. If all 3 pair were to end up m/f, Im gonna have to keep them seperated most of the time and only pair them when I want a spawn. No way I have enough foom for 3 spawns at a time... even with 30 tanks running! Had to seperate my long fin blue eye lemon plecos because they spawned 3 times in 7 weeks and I had ~250 plecos... every where! Now I have a tank for each of my males and fry and another tank to move the ladies to.

 

Im going to let them have a couple tries before I start pulling the breeding cone and trying to hatch myself. Id like for the fry to be parent raised in hopes the fry learn to be good parents. I keep several tanks available to fill on a moments notice, anywhere from 2.5 gallon to 20 gallon longs, and several cycled sponges in other tanks. I have to raise my Rams myself as they live in a community tank. I do just as you said... pull whatever they breed on, drop in another container with an air stone for minimal water movement (and a little methelene blue to keep fungus at bay). Seems to work well with the super tiny ram fry.

I think it is normal for the first several tries. Had the same issue with my Rams, then I started pulling them to hatch myself. The fry would have never made it in the community tank where the parents live anyways. Got about 100 of them growing out right now! Im about 99.9% sure I have a m/f pair this time, and the eggs were well fertilized. I was looking really forward to waking up the next morning to a bunch of wigglers. LOL. Watching the other 2 pair spawn yesterday and today and I THINK 3&4 are m/f also, but 2&6 is still questionable if there actually f/f. If all 3 pair were to end up m/f, Im gonna have to keep them seperated most of the time and only pair them when I want a spawn. No way I have enough foom for 3 spawns at a time... even with 30 tanks running! Had to seperate my long fin blue eye lemon plecos because they spawned 3 times in 7 weeks and I had ~250 plecos... every where! Now I have a tank for each of my males and fry and another tank to move the ladies to.

Cool. They are just like the rams in spawning if you've done that then you are in a good position for how angels go and have a good handle on what to expect.
20 long with lots of water changes is good up to the point they take angelfish form and lose the "fry" look when they look like every other fish fry, when they start looking like mini angels that's when they will need more space.

 

Cool. They are just like the rams in spawning if you've done that then you are in a good position for how angels go and have a good handle on what to expect.
20 long with lots of water changes is good up to the point they take angelfish form and lose the "fry" look when they look like every other fish fry, when they start looking like mini angels that's when they will need more space.

Excellent. The plan is.. do as I do with the rams, daily/every other day 33%-50% water changes for the fry as I know they will require very clean water early on. Once they get to the Angel form I have the option move to the 54 gallon that currently houses only a pair of the angels and a 2 inch BN pleco, or a 55 gallon that only houses 2 adult female BN plecos. I do also have another 29 gallon I will be swapping out with one of the 20 longs this weekend which will provide much more space. Then there is always the option of setting up a new large tank, and I am never opposed to setting up a new tank!

 

Excellent. The plan is.. do as I do with the rams, daily/every other day 33%-50% water changes for the fry as I know they will require very clean water early on. Once they get to the Angel form I have the option move to the 54 gallon that currently houses only a pair of the angels and a 2 inch BN pleco, or a 55 gallon that only houses 2 adult female BN plecos. I do also have another 29 gallon I will be swapping out with one of the 20 longs this weekend which will provide much more space. Then there is always the option of setting up a new large tank, and I am never opposed to setting up a new tank!

sounds like a plan. couple things, and I'm not sure about the rams, but the angels will lay the eggs, and those eggs will be wigglers at 82F at right around 60 hours after being lai, cooler water takes longer, from there, it's about anopther 60 hours and the first ones will be freeswimming, then in the next 24 hours they all should be taking off.
I'm not sure how fast it moves.that's like the first week, day 7 some that got off to an early start will be ready to eat. the majority not, but like a little bit every 2-4 hours gets thenm into the swing of things as they become ready to eat without risking losing some to starvation by waiting too long.

Around week 6 the first ones will start looking like angels, around week 8 they all get the angel form and start to look like mini angelfish. you can keep them in the 20g after that out to 10-13 weeks even, but it's just more and more water changes and more severe, like I was doing 75% 2x a day at week 12 when I culled and sold a bunch to lower the numbers to get another 2-3 weeks. I'd say around week 10 is a good time to cull for deformities. undeveloped eyes, short gill plates, football shapes still that don't seem to kick over to the angel form,belly sliders, ect. ,

Not sure if it's quite all the same with rams. but as far as the fish spawning on something and needing to remove them if the parents wont' stop eating them.
rams lay like 100-200 eggs I think angels are in that same range per spawn also, but can hit that 300-500 range on occasion.

I did it with a 20g Long and a 72g. I think a 20 standard is better than the 20 long for the fish spawning, but a 29g is the ideal tank for a pair really its a bit deeper, but same size as the 20 long footprint. Mine struggle with the 20 long depth at times when they lay eggs, sometimes opting to give up and lay them horizontal on the bottom instead of on something vertical.

you can do it! my one and two year olds.

 

sounds like a plan. couple things, and I'm not sure about the rams, but the angels will lay the eggs, and those eggs will be wigglers at 82F at right around 60 hours after being lai, cooler water takes longer, from there, it's about anopther 60 hours and the first ones will be freeswimming, then in the next 24 hours they all should be taking off.
I'm not sure how fast it moves.that's like the first week, day 7 some that got off to an early start will be ready to eat. the majority not, but like a little bit every 2-4 hours gets thenm into the swing of things as they become ready to eat without risking losing some to starvation by waiting too long.

Around week 6 the first ones will start looking like angels, around week 8 they all get the angel form and start to look like mini angelfish. you can keep them in the 20g after that out to 10-13 weeks even, but it's just more and more water changes and more severe, like I was doing 75% 2x a day at week 12 when I culled and sold a bunch to lower the numbers to get another 2-3 weeks. I'd say around week 10 is a good time to cull for deformities. undeveloped eyes, short gill plates, football shapes still that don't seem to kick over to the angel form,belly sliders, ect. ,

Not sure if it's quite all the same with rams. but as far as the fish spawning on something and needing to remove them if the parents wont' stop eating them.
rams lay like 100-200 eggs I think angels are in that same range per spawn also, but can hit that 300-500 range on occasion.

I did it with a 20g Long and a 72g. I think a 20 standard is better than the 20 long for the fish spawning, but a 29g is the ideal tank for a pair really its a bit deeper, but same size as the 20 long footprint. Mine struggle with the 20 long depth at times when they lay eggs, sometimes opting to give up and lay them horizontal on the bottom instead of on something vertical.

you can do it! my one and two year olds.
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Sounds very similar to the process I do for the rams, only the rams may take a 1 or 2 more days to become free swimming. What I do with them is as soon as I see the first free swimmer, I throw in a large clump of java moss that they can pick off micro organisms as soon as they decide they want to eat. Once I have about 50% free swimmers, I introduce a little golden pearls (5-50 microns) mixed with tank water and also some vinegar eels as BBS is too large for ram fry. About a week of that and they are ready for BBS, Northfin fry starter and Hkari first bites. Was figuring on the same process for the angels but going to the BBS almost immediately as I believe the Angel fry are big enough that they can start BBS right away?

I have the parents paired in a 20 tall, the 54g and a 29g. The 20L are specifically for fry, if needed. Once the new 29 is ready, I will move the pair from the 20t to it. I feel fairly confident the pair in the 54g are both female so they will likely move to my 75g display tank and I will keep both m/f pairs in the two 29g's. That will leave the 54 and a 55 to grow out the fry.

Ive got to move some plecos that are growing in one of the 20L to a 40b this weekend to clear the 20L for ram fry that are ready to move out of the 2.5g to the 20L.

This is my current setup... not your typical dining room. LOL

 

Sounds very similar to the process I do for the rams, only the rams may take a 1 or 2 more days to become free swimming. What I do with them is as soon as I see the first free swimmer, I throw in a large clump of java moss that they can pick off micro organisms as soon as they decide they want to eat. Once I have about 50% free swimmers, I introduce a little golden pearls (5-50 microns) mixed with tank water and also some vinegar eels as BBS is too large for ram fry. About a week of that and they are ready for BBS, Northfin fry starter and Hkari first bites. Was figuring on the same process for the angels but going to the BBS almost immediately as I believe the Angel fry are big enough that they can start BBS right away?

I have the parents paired in a 20 tall, the 54g and a 29g. The 20L are specifically for fry, if needed. Once the new 29 is ready, I will move the pair from the 20t to it. I feel fairly confident the pair in the 54g are both female so they will likely move to my 75g display tank and I will keep both m/f pairs in the two 29g's. That will leave the 54 and a 55 to grow out the fry.

Ive got to move some plecos that are growing in one of the 20L to a 40b this weekend to clear the 20L for ram fry that are ready to move out of the 2.5g to the 20L.

This is my current setup... not your typical dining room. LOL

I used Hikari first bites exclusively at first, then ground flake food through a fine micron screen for a bit for a cheaper cost and used Vitachem supplement in the water, and to the food once they got to "flake" size. I'm not a fan of live foods, I ain't got the time for all that but, if you got it and do it already, that's great.
Newly hatched BBS is the right size for angel fry just at freeswimming. First Bites were fine for me at day one, the only thing is, I needed to use one of those syringes for liquid medicine, mix the first bites with water then suck it up and squirt it into the fry cloud, and it will swirl and suspend some and give them something to chase and realize it's food. at first they don't seem to "get it" and the chase triggers the feeding response.

yeah, it gets out of hand breeding, there's just points where you're like "well, I need more water and room" or "well, I could use one more tank for ....." always something comes up that "one more tank" can help with.

 

Good evening folks, Im back with another update to the angel spawning saga at my home, lol. 3&4 ended up eating all their eggs 2 days after the last spawn, even though there were not a lot of white ones. 1&5 spawned again on 3/1 and all eggs were eaten by the 4th, again, but there was not a lot of white ones. 2&6 spawned on 3/3 and currently have about 30 white eggs in the group. BBBUUUUTTT, I took a really close look and I can see eyes in the eggs!! SO, I at least have one, 100% confirmed, pair! Woo hoo! Now, if they will just not eat them before they hatch! One step closer than we were!