Will larger water changes help plants?

I have serious issues growing anything in my 180L. Eventually all the plants die, and algae flourishes.

I've tried added a few plants at a time, and a lot of plants at the same time.

This morning I decided to try something new, instead of removing 30L, I removed 60L.

Could doing bigger water changes help the plants to thrive?

 

Tap water will have trace elements so maybe if that’s what they are missing. Don’t gravel vac near the plants , add a good all in one fertiliser and make sure you have a good flow, the plants should gently wave in the current.

If the algea takes over the plant there’s an imbalance somewhere. Once you work out where it is and fix that the algea should reduce to a normal level rather than taking over.

 

The flow is definitely good

What’s the best way to find out where the imbalance is?

 

Usually changing one thing at a time and seeing if it works ! Try the larger water changes and see how that goes for a while. Are you open to ferts or root tabs ? Can you post what plants you have , maybe someone can see something obvious and give you an idea

 

I would preferably do without ferts/root tabs, but I'm not against them if they don't add too much hassle/time

In my 180 there is vans, guppy grass and... another one I don't know the name of....

They don't look that healthy to me, but I've added some pictures.

 

Without fertilizer, your plants will depend on fish waste and food waste for major nutrients. That is often enough, especially with heavy stocking. With so few fish, there may not be enough nutrients for the plants. What's the nitrate level?
It takes a few seconds (1-3x/week) to add fertilizer, so not a hassle really. You could use an all-in-one fert.

 

Lighting looks bright enough, how long are they on for? Looks like a lightly stocked tank and I agree with the above post, you would likely benefit from an all in one fert.

 

I wouldn't mind adding more fish to the tank, but I think the current stocking pretty much rules that out (2 Polar Blue Parrot Cichlids, 3 Apisto Cichlids, 3 Ellioti Cichlid) - I can't think of any other fish that would fit in.

FWIW, I'm aware it's a lot of cichlids, but I monitor everything closely and they are fine. IF that were to change, I would remove some.

Nitrates tend to sit at around 20ppm, but it has been a while since I tested to be honest. I will do so at the weekend.

It takes a few seconds (1-3x/week) to add fertilizer, so not a hassle really. You could use an all-in-one fert.

Looks like a lightly stocked tank and I agree with the above post, you would likely benefit from an all in one fert.

Is there a good all-in-one fert? I have and occasionally drop in some Seachem Flourish, but as far as I understand it's not a great fertiliser?

Lighting looks bright enough, how long are they on for?

Lights are on between 10:00 -> 14:00, and 16:00 -> 19:00 with a siesta in-between.

 

Flourish is not an all in one fert it only contains micro nutrients but that might be all that you need on a regular basis if your nitrate level is consistently at or above 20 ppm. Along with adding more fertiliser you could try adding an extra hour or two to your lighting schedule.

 

OK, thanks! I was actually thinking I may need to reduce the lights, as I am getting algae (not a huge amount, but enough that I have to clean it every week), but I'll certainly try increasing the hours if that might help.

Is it worthwhile keeping the siesta, do you think?

Would adding fish help? I can do some more research into fish that would work with all the cichlids....

 

I wouldn’t add fish just to raise macro nutrients for plant growth. Better to do that with an all in one fert if you need to but if nitrates generally stay above 20ppm you could probably just stick with Flourish added weekly. Alternatively you could try an all in one but you’ll need to to do at least 50% WC’s.

Some healthy green algae is normal. Nuisance algae will occur if there is an imbalance between light/nutrients/CO2, in a low light tank you should be able to run lights at least 8 hours without algae issues if there are sufficient nutrients for the plants to draw on. Every tank is unique though, it can take some experimenting with lighting and nutrients to get it right.

 

please test the water of the tank, and test the source water you use for water changes and see where that is at, for the most part GH, KH and pH should be in line with each other between the two (pH may rise or fall as it sits and equalizes with the atmosphere).

If say GH or KH are high or low in the tank compared to the source water you use for changes, you aren't water changing enough and there's a build up or a depletion.

I dislike plants, my tank dislikes plants, it doesn't work for me at all and I don't have the patience for dealing with it. I am the person that just gets diatoms and no green or black algae, ever in my display tank. I do have a two other tanks that get green algae lightly though but my 7 year running tank, just some diatoms, and they aren't even a nuisance anymore either.

these water tests are all general tests, there are more in depth testing for plants, calcium tests, Magnesium tests, phosphate tests, CO2 tests ect. detecting the problem area narrows down the possible solutions.
main point is to check to see if you are doing enough on the water side first. before going further.If GH is low in the tank, you can guess right there you probably don't have enough calcium and magnesium laying around for the tank to use for everything that needs it. But if the source water reads higher than the tank, this would indicate water changing more would raise it and you wouldn't need to necessarily supplement.

The light does look like it's enough to grow plants. maybe on too long, maybe on too short, but that can be dialed in for what is optimal just by trying it a few different ways and seeing the results.

I also have to agree. algae is natural and normal to have. Never having algae, or only ever having diatom algae is a sign the water isn't kind to green plants. too much algae is an imbalance, just as no algae is an imbalance, When in balance, there's always some algae.
The picture perfect display tanks and ones you see with the pristine water, those are highly tended to. work being done most hobbyists won't go to that sort of extent to accomplish, and even then, some of the insane crazy perfect planted tanks in the magazines, that's months of fixing and cleaning and tending for that one 12-24 hour perfection period for the photoshoot, maybe a couple times a year when it's just stunning. It's not like that all the time. Plants grow, demand changes and the tanks dynamic shifts with it and things go in and out of balance.

Anyways. A first step would be to see if you are doing enough water changes, but not too much water changes either. then tweaking lighting. Maybe you do need to supplement one or more nutrients, but first steps is to know you have those two areas nailed down and dialed in as best you can, and which might need "more" or "less" , then for sure all that's left is the right amount of supplementation for the plants to really thrive.

I don't recommend adding things (supplementation) to the water that you might not need to really add as a trial and error guess. It just puts it further out of balance if you don't happen to get lucky and can cause algae blooms and just a bigger mess than the one you are trying to fix.

 

For optimal growth, plants need the proper amount of light and proper nutrients. Some plants need a lot of light, some need only a little. Thus, you need to purchase plants based on the amount of lighting provided.

There are basically three types of nutrients: macronutrients, micronutrients, and carbon dioxide. The macronutrients include such things as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium and iron. They are required in fairly good amounts. If your water does not provide one or more of these minerals, the plants will show signs of nutrient deficiency. By observing your plant coloration, you can usually determine what is missing in their "diet".

Likewise, they need small amounts of micronutrients, minerals that are important, but required in lower amounts. These include iodine, copper, manganese and a number of other minerals. They are similar to the vitamin and mineral supplements you might take to supplement your diet.

Finally, there is carbon dioxide. That is what supplies the carbon that is required to produce the cellulose structure of the plants.

There are some all-in-one fertilizers like Thrive and Easy Green that claim to provide everything your plants need. However, since every aquarium is different, there is no way that one product can meet the needs of every aquarium. The theory behind these combination products is that an excess of minerals is provided and you keep the excess from building up by doing large water changes.

 

Agree with sparkyjones; tanks with lush vegetation pictured in magazines and the likes are most often high tech and well cared for, or a scape that has just been planted. Most often, with CO2 injection, which causes plants to grow more dense in general.

And also, the overall plant volume compared to tank volume is a lot higher than the typical fish tank. This prevents algae reproduction for different reasons. And not because of plain competition for nutrients.

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Back to your tank; it has limited vegetation compared to water volume; tall tank, clean substrate, not many fish, so guessing CO2 is only 2 ppm, and light seems to be a bit too bright. I'm afraid this is pretty much as good as it gets and probably offers some triggers for algae species to reproduce.

I believe I'm noticing a bit of what seems a phosphate deficiency, but no alarm bells. The new leaves look healthy to me.

Again agree with sparkyjones, water changes can help, but you have to know what that water actually contains. A thorough analysis of the source water is something anyone should do. For instance, iron and potassium can be lacking. If you would treat the phosphate deficiency, but lack iron, then you won't even help your plants the slightest with the phosphates, but instead trigger certain algae species to reproduce.

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So I would be a bit hesitant to change anything.

If you can't resist trying out fertilizers, I would split micros and macros. A typical bottle of micros, also includes calcium, magnesium and sulfur. A typical bottle of macros is NPK. Separating gives you more freedom to experiment and is overall more efficient, as certain micros won't bind with certain macros as soon as they are released in your tankwater.

If you fancy more plants, less algae, and without all the hassle (such as CO2 injection), and you intend to do so in this fairly tall tank, my primary advice would be to start working on your hardscape / woodscape in all three axes (width, depth, height) and start planting the wood with mosses and epiphytes. With the intention to create much more plant-mass and have degrees of freedom regarding the relationship between species and distance from light source. And also to be less dependent on stemplants, which are simply challenging in tall tanks without CO2 injection. The classic Dutch school consisting of vibrant, dense stem plants are CO2 powered.

Once you have a tank that is heavily planted, you can start adding fertiliser, without worrying too much about algae. Adding a bit more than required, is fine.

Final comment regarding lights; running your lights for a few hours longer, will likely get you in trouble given the circumstances. 8 hrs is fine, but I would have it a bit less bright. Regarding siestas.... can't hurt, but not all algae species are triggered by light (for reproduction that is).

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Here are two nice video's that show you how its done. And I can vouch for what these guys have done. Nothing fancy, just scaping in all directions, particularly also the height.

 

I just want to start by thanking everyone for your replies. I've read them all (some a few times), and really appreciate the time and effort everybody has put in to help.

You're all awesome.

Anyways. A first step would be to see if you are doing enough water changes, but not too much water changes either. then tweaking lighting. Maybe you do need to supplement one or more nutrients, but first steps is to know you have those two areas nailed down and dialed in as best you can, and which might need "more" or "less" , then for sure all that's left is the right amount of supplementation for the plants to really thrive.

I suppose the "more or less" water changes will depend on how much Nitrates I have? I could possibly be doing more harm than good if I'm removing more water/Nitrates and there's not enough for the plants to thrive?

I don't recommend adding things (supplementation) to the water that you might not need to really add as a trial and error guess. It just puts it further out of balance if you don't happen to get lucky and can cause algae blooms and just a bigger mess than the one you are trying to fix.

Makes sense

Back to your tank; it has limited vegetation compared to water volume; tall tank, clean substrate, not many fish, so guessing CO2 is only 2 ppm, and light seems to be a bit too bright. I'm afraid this is pretty much as good as it gets and probably offers some triggers for algae species to reproduce.

Fair enough! I have had stints of a lot more vegetation, but then I dialled it back a bit as things started to die and I wondered if there were too many plants competing for the nutrients.

I believe I'm noticing a bit of what seems a phosphate deficiency, but no alarm bells. The new leaves look healthy to me.

If the new leaves look healthy, could it be that they had this deficiency when I bought them? They are only a few weeks old.

A thorough analysis of the source water is something anyone should do.

How would one go about doing this analysis exactly?

So I would be a bit hesitant to change anything.

Oki doki! I'll leave it as is!

If you fancy more plants, less algae, and without all the hassle (such as CO2 injection), and you intend to do so in this fairly tall tank, my primary advice would be to start working on your hardscape / woodscape in all three axes (width, depth, height) and start planting the wood with mosses and epiphytes. With the intention to create much more plant-mass and have degrees of freedom regarding the relationship between species and distance from light source. And also to be less dependent on stemplants, which are simply challenging in tall tanks without CO2 injection. The classic Dutch school consisting of vibrant, dense stem plants are CO2 powered.

Honestly, mosses are like the worst thing for me. I've tried them so many times, and have never had any luck. I could definitely try Anubias again, I was just hoping for something a bit more fast growing that would just take over the tank,

Here are two nice video's that show you how its done. And I can vouch for what these guys have done. Nothing fancy, just scaping in all directions, particularly also the height.

Thank you


I wish I could rip it all out and start it again as a walstad.

 

It’s strange that moss doesn’t grow. Could you of left it too thick on what ever you attached it to and it rotted underneath from lack of light ?

 

It’s strange that moss doesn’t grow. Could you of left it too thick on what ever you attached it to and it rotted underneath from lack of light ?

It's definitely possible! I didn't really know what I was doing when I bought it, to be honest (still don't really haha).

This (20g Java Moss Shrimp Breeding Carpeting Aquarium Plants Live Aquatic EASY GROW | eBay) was what I bought.


The trouble is now I've started looking at what fish are good with cichlids, and I've come across giant danios!!

 

Fair enough! I have had stints of a lot more vegetation, but then I dialled it back a bit as things started to die and I wondered if there were too many plants competing for the nutrients.

Yup, this happens in all tanks. But I would prefer this over looking at and removing algae.

Common wisdom suggest to take out the weak and the dying in order to actually prevent algae. If you have a heavily planted tank and a rich substrate, this will not happen. Algae is present but will not be triggered into an exponential explosion. In fact, the dying plant matter will eventually become a carbon source.

If the new leaves look healthy, could it be that they had this deficiency when I bought them? They are only a few weeks old.

Stem plants are quick in sacrificing older leaves if conditions ask for. In worst case, the old leaves fall off and you end up with bare stems in the bottom part.

How would one go about doing this analysis exactly?

Online source of the public utility company that is responsible for your tap water. Testing yourself. Or check this: Amazon.com

However, in a heavily planted tank, you can simply start dosing fertilizers without having to worry too much about the water contents of your tap water (although at least the kh/gh of your tap water should be known), or about algae. Because competition between plants and algae is not a simple matter of dividing the total number of nutrients in the water. But it is that simple between plant species and specimen (although certain species have different intakes and different photosynthetic rates).

Oki doki! I'll leave it as is!

Honestly, mosses are like the worst thing for me. I've tried them so many times, and have never had any luck. I could definitely try Anubias again, I was just hoping for something a bit more fast growing that would just take over the tank,

Thank you


I wish I could rip it all out and start it again as a walstad.

Nobody is stopping you.

 

Yup, this happens in all tanks. But I would prefer this over looking at and removing algae.

It didn't actually prevent any algae, so I assumed (wrongly?) that too many plants wasn't helping.

Stem plants are quick in sacrificing older leaves if conditions ask for. In worst case, the old leaves fall off and you end up with bare stems in the bottom part.

Ahh ok, TIL. Thanks!

Online source of the public utility company that is responsible for your tap water. Testing yourself. Or check this: Amazon.com

Thank you

Nobody is stopping you.

Lack of a tank to move the cichlids to while I convert it is stopping me

 

The relationship between algae and plants is not greatly understood. I'm following the scientific discourse a tiny bit, but progress is slow or I'm getting old too fast.

A large plant biomass with respect to tank volume, whether low tech or high tech, seems to prevent algae from taking off. Provided ....most of your plants are healthy. If not, probably the first thing plants do is stop producing defensive and perhaps allelopathic chemicals, thus giving room to algae.

Hence, you have to do things right from the very start. That's why people are struggling so often; they only do a bit to see how things will go, but then troubles starts and they have to correct things. You have to create the-almost-end-result. Plenty of videos on YouTube can be found on step-by-step tutorials on aquascaping that show this.

It’s strange that moss doesn’t grow. Could you of left it too thick on what ever you attached it to and it rotted underneath from lack of light ?

Agree. I think a lot of people just stick it in or attach it and then let it grow.
But trimming moss seems to make a difference.

 

Agree. I think a lot of people just stick it in or attach it and then let it grow.
But trimming moss seems to make a difference.

I have a tonne of moss in most of my tanks now , all from one little tissue culture pot. I have given mounds of it away, thrown loads out and it just doesn’t stop !! But one time I was in a rush and just tied a bunch to a rock and threw it in. It was so thick it just rotted away. The ones I have attached to wood was very sparse at first but it’s huge now , the trimming is a pain but if I don’t do it , it’s noticeably not happy.

also for the op, I prefer tying it on over glue. Spiky and Christmas moss seem to like it more and grow better . I’ve also just got clumps of it floating about in the outdoor tubs and it’s loving it.