Wiggler-napping Rams?

Hey guys,

So I'm "new" here, but I've been lurking around the forum for a few years - I finally decided to just join today.

But on to it... I have some really... odd... ram behavior happening in my tank right now. I have two "pairs" of rams in a 30 gallon. I had bought both pairs because they both appeared to be bonded and were attempting to spawn in the tank of my not-so LFS. There was courtship behavior in their tanks at home, but the rock pecking would last 3 weeks or more with no eggs, so I threw them all in a 30 to see if I could get better results, figuring I'd place them back in their own spawn tanks after. But something really odd happened.


Background (for context):
11/29: Male 1 spawned with female 2. He didn't let her anywhere near the nest, and I removed about 75% of the eggs just in case they were eaten. And within 24 hours he had abandoned the nest (which were either eaten later or have hatched and died in the tank at this point.) I was ripping down the old tanks and didn't have them ready yet (they spawned within 24 hours!) So I started trying to get them back together now that I knew I had at least one pair that was spawning, but then...

12/1: Male 1 spawned again... with female 1 this time and let her help considerably, unlike female 2. I left the eggs this time since the first batch all went bad on me, so I figured "Why not?" Today we have wigglers and they've moved them to a new nest. They're doing fine with the other pair in the tank, and male 2 is courting female 2, and they seem to be getting ready to spawn again, so I figured I'll just leave them until they spawn. There's not much aggression or any stress from this (that I can see) and the tank has plenty of structure to allow them to coexist for a little longer.

The weird part:
Today (12/4): Female 2 keeps intruding on the other pair's territory and "attacking" their nest. Or so I had thought. But after watching this happen a few times, I noticed something odd... she runs over, picks the wigglers up, swooshes them, and spits them out where they were (but at light-speed through the whole nest.) Occasionally, she'll storm the gates, grab a mouthful, and bring them back to "her side" of the tank and care for them there. Male 2 seems a bit flustered when she spits out a mouthful of wigglers on his proposed spawn site but seems to tolerate this and tends to them with her. Within a minute or two, the real parents go over and reclaim their wiggler-napped offspring. But in a way that's almost like "So that's where you put them? We're just gonna take these." There's no nipping or any appearance of haste to get them back. Female 2 is pretty relentless this morning, which is roughly when they had hatched, but she doesn't appear to be hurting the wigglers in any way.

Female 1 will occasionally watch female 2 tending to their nest and let her be for a few minutes before she swims (rather slowly) to find the male and, seemingly flabberghasted, nudges him like "What is she even doing here again? Go get her out." And he will, but they both kind of just nudge her out, there's no nips, "ramming", or chasing taking place here. Almost like an "Okay, thanks for the help, but go away." At which point, female 2 will perch atop a large clay pot about 3 inches from their nest and just watch for a few minutes then head back in.

On to the point...
I had thought that rams were monogamous, which I guess he technically was, but I thought they bonded for life with one spawn partner? I've heard of breeders spawning rams in harem-style set-ups with success, but I had always thought that was to entice the other pairs to spawn. The other odd thing is that he didn't let female 2 near the nest, but female 1 was allowed (expected, even) to stand guard from the second they were done spawning? But, more interestingly, has anyone ever heard of this wiggler-napping phenomena? Is it possible that she's just uber maternal or is even considering these to be hers since they are "her mate's" offspring and were relatively close in age? I know some Apistogramma species are so maternal that they will "adopt" daphnia or clouds of tubifex worms, but I thought rams were notriously bad parents, so is this even possible that she's so willing to kidnap children to be a parent?

 

That's really funny. Atleast you second pair isn't trying to eat the wigglers, things could be worst. Tho recently I have heard of some cichlid species sharing fry.


((I'm currently raising apistogramma wiggler and I think mom would accept about any wigglers I present her. I stole some from her to raise apart on her first batch- then gave her back wigglers with a pipette she put them back in the cave and would come to the pipette hoping it’d give her babies or something. Now its second spawn and I'm letting mom raise her babies))

 

That is too funny! I've heard of breeders replacing Apisto fry with daphnia so they can hand-raise the fry without stressing the mom out. I've never heard of a. macmasteri, (I just looked and they're gorgeous!) So if you want a home for some fry at any point... I have some a. borelliI blues that just spawned. Maybe I'll just try to give her the ram wigglers if the parents don't do their job.

 

The wiggler’s dad is specially beautifull. I'm hoping the fry end up like him.

About giving the wiggler- it wouldnt work unless the rams and BorellI spawn at the same time- mommy gets protective of wigglers and wouldnt mind more. Any other time the wigglers would be snacks. The baby ram would have to be the same size as the apisto babies.

((My pair:


))

 

Oooh, I love the symmetry between his anal and dorsal. Where did you manage to find these guys?

And herm. That might not work then. I haven't seen her babes very well. (Black water tank with protective mum = no sight seeing for me.) But they were laid within days of each other, I believe. Might be worth a try still if I find the Rams eat the wiggler's anyways. Less work for me, I suppose.

 

I found the female at a local petstore, she was a tiny baby then I found a local LFS kept an eye on it- months later they finally had some in stock. (By then the female was at her full size)
The male is still growing. Got him this october. I was lucky they decided to pair up ^^;

It might work *shrug* tho maybe you have rare good parents ram lol

 

I'm hoping so. They seem better than most ram parents thus far. And they were bred locally by a breeder who's rams raise their fry. (Then one of my LFS buys them from him.) So that might be why there's a fish soap opera happening right now. That one female is just so desperate to be a good parent. Lol

I don't know about your LFS, but I know mine buys bonded pairs of Apistos. The tricky part is just getting in there before someone breaks up the pair.

 

I still find that cute, thinking about it maybe because they had good parents they are good parents?? idk lol
in my case the female won't let the male near the babies she chases him away from her cave, so I only moved her and her babies to the new bin where she can raise them away from the community tank

I'm not sure, but I know from time to time they have promotions for pairs. don't know if they are bonded or not. when I bought the pair they dint have the promotion going on.

 

I know people force bond them so they can breed how they want to or because maybe the male is sterile so he will introduce another male. I've always been under the impression they typically keep the same partner. I know occasionally they will turn against their partner and that partner may need to be removed from tank. I have gold rams that are mated, this is their 3rd spawn, the first two times he ate the eggs. This time we have wigglers and so far they are good parents. We have another mates pair of blue rams that were in another tank. We keep our paired rams in separate tanks to keep them less stressed. When they were in 55 together they were more concerned with other pair then each other. My female blue ram died so we just have the gold pair now. Now my male blue ram and my male gold ram have paired up lol, they sleep next to each other, swim together and if the blue ram is gone the gold ram frantically searches for him but I'm not a breeder and don't want to force it. I just want it to naturally happen like it did with them before she does and like the gold ram pair. It's cool watching them be parents. No one bothers then either.