Why is my betta always in a vertical position when at rest?

I've been treating my betta for pretty bad fin rot that I'm afraid will become body rot. I've tried Melafix and Pimafix, API Fin and Body Cure and Seachem's Sulfaplex. I tried each in turn for the full course of treatment and nothing has helped. I started on Neoplex last Wednesday. About a day before hand I noticed that he was standing up in his cave or by the heater or wherever. Not until yesterday did it hit me that he was never lying down anymore. He is always in a vertical position if he is not swimming. His swimming seems normal. Sometimes he looks a little curved. Could this possibly be a swim bladder problem? Again, he can swim fine ( at least to me) and he has an appetite although (for what seems like forever) his stomach never goes down all the way after eating.
We've had him for close to three years. He is in a 10 gallon tank with heater and sponge filter. He gets a partial water change every week, and his parameters are good: nitrite and ammonia are zero, ph= 7.8 and nitrate of 10 or 20.
I don't think neoplex helps with internal problems and I'm afraid that this strange behavior may indicate that he has one.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks!

 

When you say vertical do you mean like at an angle or completely straight up and down? If completely straight then he could have the beginning of swim bladder issues- if his belly never fully goes down after eating you may want to try fasting him for a few days to see if that changes.

As for the fin rot if you're looking for more solutions I recommend looking into possible doing aquarium salt baths. Only one or two a day for as long as you see fit following the dosing instructions on the salt. I stress the fact that this would be a bath and not added directly to the tank because continuously adding salt to a tank can be a disaster.

Keeping the water clean can help too, maybe temporarily increase water changes or make sure to vacuum the substrate every time if you don't already?

 

Try boiling a frozen pea. Easily done by throwing one in a tupperware and throwing it in the microwave for 20-30s. Run it under cold water and deshell. Take about a quarter of it, about the size of the bettas eye, and feed him it. Peas work as a laxative and can help him before you start fasting him.

 

Thank you for responding, Salem. He is basically completely straight. Could you possibly explain why that would indicate the beginning of swim bladder issues? I usually add aquarium salt to the tank after a water change - just to replace that which was taken out. I don't want to remove him from the tank as he is acting stressed already -for not much reason he will dart very quickly to go into hiding, for example.
As far as the frozen pea goes: I give him frozen brine shrimp and daphnia very often (in fact that makes up most of his diet now because even though I soak his pellets for 20 minutes, they take a long time for him to get down.) and I believe they act as a laxative as well. I don't want to fast him for no reason.

 

Thank you for responding, Salem. He is basically completely straight. Could you possibly explain why that would indicate the beginning of swim bladder issues? I usually add aquarium salt to the tank after a water change - just to replace that which was taken out. I don't want to remove him from the tank as he is acting stressed already -for not much reason he will dart very quickly to go into hiding, for example.
As far as the frozen pea goes: I give him frozen brine shrimp and daphnia very often (in fact that makes up most of his diet now because even though I soak his pellets for 20 minutes, they take a long time for him to get down.) and I believe they act as a laxative as well. I don't want to fast him for no reason.

Wouldnt be for no reason. It won't do him any damage and can help factor out constipation. Good luck

 

From what I've seen some fish when they develop swim bladder disorder it begins by them sort of tipping when at rest. Not so much floating up or down, just sort of losing balance almost. Sometimes swim bladder issues can arise from constipation- the bloating in the belly can apply pressure to it.
However if his regular diet includes foods that can act as laxatives it could perhaps just be a more comfortable way for him to rest now that hes older. I would still keep an eye on it though and definitely take note if he starts showing other odd behaviours

If you've been successfully using salt then I retract my suggestion of the baths seeing as you have that under control.

 

I have attached a few photos. He is not always as curved as he looks in two of these photos.

 

Here is a photo that I just took to show that he is vertical without a curve.
He is sometimes quite skittish. This morning I lifted the lid of the aquarium to feed him and he darted all over till he finally hid in the back. He has moved around some but has remained in the back. Maybe the antibiotics have stressed him some.

 

What a beautiful boy he is, it's terrible hes feeling under the weather. Perhaps for the time being slow down on medications and antibiotics to give him a little bit of a break. It may be best to just monitor his behaviour for now. Keeping the light off or for less time may help him feel a bit calmer.

 

Thanks, Salem. The problem is we started him on the Neoplex last Wed, and I read that once you start a fish on an antibiotic, its important to finish the course of treatment. Today he has been wanting to be left alone. He was sort of like this a few days ago and then he perked up, so I hope for a better day tomorrow!

 

Best of luck!

 

Thank you!

 

Since my last post, we've used KanaPlex, concerned that some of his behavior might indicate internal problems. He became stressed from that treatment. He's been off medications since then, but the ammonia test levels rose to 0.25. We added SafeStart, then when levels rose to 0.5, we added extra Prime and Stability.
Though he still rests vertically and is sometimes curved, and is just as bloated, he's seemed much less stressed in the past few days. This morning, we fed a soaked Northfin Betta Bit for the first time in over 2 weeks. After rising to the surface from one of the plants, he proceeded to gulp air, nab the falling pellet, and remain at the surface. Before, his classic symptom of swim bladder was sinking; now, it is an inability to swim downwards. Every now and then and he moves his fins or wiggles/jerks around, gulping way more than air than he might as a younger fish when taking a breath from the surface. For the most part he is frighteningly immobile.
Is there anything we can do? We've fasted 3 days and fed daphnia and his normal diet contains frozen brine shrimp and daphnia (that is all we've been feeding in the period of time we haven't fed pellets). Can we rule out constipation as the cause and forgo the pea treatment? If so, how can we treat this? How does one expel an excess of air (he would often hang out by and "gulp" air from the airstone) that isn't caused by constipation? Could it possibly be a symptom of an infection when we've treated with so many medications already? (Unfortunately, his fin rot has not improved.)
Thank you.

 

Revision: he is able to swim (but chooses not to when at rest), even to the bottom, but will slowly rise to the top again.

 

Looks like it likely isn't constipation at least. HI'm gulping air is likely not helping very much but there's not really a way to stop that.

What temperature is the water? Is the tank actually cycled? How often do you do water changes?

 

The water is on average 79 degrees. He has been in this tank for over two years, and except for this recent ammonia spike, ammonia and nitrite have been zero and nitrates 10 or 20 (I cannot tell the difference between the two orange colors on my API test kit.) We do water changes every week (25%-30%.)

I don't know whether or not to fast him. I would hate to do so for no reason!

 

Honestly this is about where my experience runs thin but maybe Sien Momgoose56 Goldmoon CheshireKat Repolie can offer some help

 

Thank you Salem. Is there a way to contact them directly? Do they not usually follow postings, etc.?

 

Thank you Salem. Is there a way to contact them directly? Do they not usually follow postings, etc.?

By tagging them they should see this post

 

hI there suzyshmuzy. Sorry to hear about your betta, I have looked through the thread and will try to help the best I can. A few pointers for the future first. Melafix and Pimafix are not safe to use with a betta. Most of these 'fix' medications have an oil in them that can make it hard for the betta to breathe, in high dosages or continued use it can be fatal. I personally do not like and never use the pea method. I believe this method was originally created for goldfish, who's bodies can handle eating plant matter. Bettas have a hard time digestion this plant matter and it can do more harm than good. Some people say that because it is hard for the fish to digest, it goes right through them. But that is like using milk to treat constipation in someone who is lactose intolerant. There are healthier and safer ways to do it. Regarding fasting, I notice you keep saying you are concerned to fast him. Bettas can go 2 weeks without food and fasting once a week is highly recommended. They are not like use humans where we must eat daily or we will feel ill. Fasting is one of the best 'natural' methods to cure constipation and prevent problems. I personally fast all my bettas 1-3 days out of the week. How much do you usually feed him? It is important to keep in mind their stomachs are the size of their eye and it takes about 24hrs for the food to digest.

Regarding his age, he is an elderly betta. Since you have had him for almost 3 years, I would estimate he is 3-3.5 years old. This is a betta who has lived a long life. I think this sounds like a swim bladder problem. The easiest way to fix this is to fast, or feed a small amount every other day. You can also try epsom salt baths 1-2x a day. It works well to help the swim bladder and draw out any fluid that may be negatively effecting it. It will also help with constipation/bloating if that is an issue here. I can give you a good salt bath routine if you are interested in this. I would stop using AQ salt in the water, it can be stressful and unnecessary.

Regarding the fin rot and the gasping for air at the surface, daily water changes will help with this. The easiest and most natural way to deal with fin rot is daily 15-20% water changes. This will help keep your water clean and replace oxygen. He may be gasping because the water is lacking oxygen. What size tank is he in btw and is it filtered? Sorry if that was mentioned already, I must have missed it. Other than that your parameters look good, your temperature is good, and your weekly water changes are good.

 

Thank you so much for your response, Sien.
The tank is 10 gallons, with a sponge filter and airstone. The flow is turned up to a level where we can see water movement towards the edges of the tank but our betta isn't moved around by it (unless he swims directly into it, which he used to do, seemingly for fun). We stopped using aquarium salt a couple of weeks ago.
We have always fasted him once a week. Last week we fasted him for three days, but it didn't help the swim bladder. When it was brought to our attention a year ago, we noticed that he always seems to have at a minimum a slightly bloated belly even after two days of not eating.
Though our betta has been less stressed the past few days, he has lately (probably because of all of the antibiotics we have given him) been skitterish and scared. We are concerned to do epsom salt baths (requiring taking him out of the tank) and daily water changes for this reason. Couldn't stress be deadly, especially with older fish?

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer how much I usually feed him. I use Northfin Betta Bits, which are relatively small. For a while, cuz it was pointed out to me that he was a little skinny, I fed him three times a day. Usually 2 pellets in the a.m., two in the evening and frozen brine shrimp or daphnia for lunch. Once a week he'd get frozen bloodworms. The last couple of months, he hasn't been as hungry and I'd skip one of these meals. The last couple of weeks, he'd have at most the equivalent of one meal of old divided into 2 feedings.

 

Tank conditions sounds good. Yes I agree that he has likely been stressed due to meds. Finish this last dose and then give him a break. Limiting light hours can be beneficial to stress as well. If he is doing well after the meds and returning to normal self, I don’t think the epsom salt baths would be a bad idea. Yes, they can be stressful, but I have come up with a rather diluted and safe routine. I have personally used it many times and have given it to others on this forum to use, I have never had someone complain or had it end badly. Of course this is your fish so you do what you are comfortable with. You know him best. His feeding routine sounds fine. The equivalent of one meal split into two is a good way to not over load him at once. Is he pooping okay? I know that can be hard to tell but I figured I’d ask. At the same time he is an older fish. Things like chronic fin rot and slight swim bladder issues aren’t uncommon with old age. I guess it’s like us people losing hair and needing a cane to walk. I think upping water changes to daily to improve fin rot, and then after you see improvement, water changes 2x a week should help. I have an old boy who deals with chronic fin rot and this helped his a lot !

 

He's been off meds for a week and a half. Unfortunately nothing (ApI fin and body cure, Sulfaplex and Kanaplex) helped the fin rot.) I would appreciate your letting me know your epsom salt routine, although I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to be able to do it. My daughter thinks he is pooping okay (I have a hard time telling the difference between poop and algae.) So you feel there is no benefit to fasting him more than one or two days a week?

 

He's been off meds for a week and a half. Unfortunately nothing (ApI fin and body cure, Sulfaplex and Kanaplex) helped the fin rot.) I would appreciate your letting me know your epsom salt routine, although I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to be able to do it. My daughter thinks he is pooping okay (I have a hard time telling the difference between poop and algae.) So you feel there is no benefit to fasting him more than one or two days a week?

Ah okay, I did not check the date on the past posts so I thought they were recent. Apologies!

This is the salt bath: For the Epsom salt baths I fill a container with a half gallon of water, de-chlorinate, and add 1 teaspoon of salt, mix well. Make sure the water matches your tank temp. Scoop your fish out (I use an old betta cup) and put him in the bath, no need to acclimate. Leave him and supervise for 15 min, sometimes they might fin clamp for a bit. If you notice severe signs of stress remove him immediately (this would be floating on his side, floating upside down, losing all color, etc). If this is the case you can try a half-3/4 teaspoon of salt and leave him in the bath for 20 min. When putting him back in the tank, scoop him out and try to add the least amount of salt bath to your actual tank. Dump the water and do not re use for future baths. You can use all new water if your parameters match the tap/water source you use, or you can do 50/50 tank and new water. You could do this 1-3 times a day but make sure to give him a break between baths.

If he is pooping okay then no need to fast longer than 1-2 days a week. Also if you are uncomfortable doing the bath, I understand. It is daunting. I know this is a frustrating and sad situation but remember you have given him an excellent home and he is an old guy. If I can explain more or give more advice let me know.

 

Thanks so much.

Even though it has been over two years, I still get upset thinking about my daughter's pet goldfish who had a terrible case of swim bladder. We gave him epsom salt baths but I think he was too far gone. I have such a sad memory of him turning away from eating part of a pea! After he passed, I got involved in taking care of her betta. (The goldfish was from her school and the betta was given to her by friends.) We moved his tank to its present location in the house about 15 months ago and it was so stressful taking him out of the tank. In addition, I don't know how I am going to be able to keep the water in the container warm enough since it won't have a heater.
I just wonder if the swim bladder disorder can be potentially fatal. It makes me so upset to see him struggling so to swim, but I'm afraid that the epsom salt baths may be too much for him.

 

Thanks so much.

Even though it has been over two years, I still get upset thinking about my daughter's pet goldfish who had a terrible case of swim bladder. We gave him epsom salt baths but I think he was too far gone. I have such a sad memory of him turning away from eating part of a pea! After he passed, I got involved in taking care of her betta. (The goldfish was from her school and the betta was given to her by friends.) We moved his tank to its present location in the house about 15 months ago and it was so stressful taking him out of the tank. In addition, I don't know how I am going to be able to keep the water in the container warm enough since it won't have a heater.
I just wonder if the swim bladder disorder can be potentially fatal. It makes me so upset to see him struggling so to swim, but I'm afraid that the epsom salt baths may be too much for him.

You know him best so go with your gut. A lot of fish can live just fine with swim bladder, some live their entire lives with it. However, sometimes it can be fatal. Your boy is old so that is a tricky one to determine.

 

thanks so much for all you help