Why do so many of our bettas get finrot?

I don't get it. Most of us take great care of them, give them way more space than in the shop, clean and heated water, entertainment, love and attention yet lots of our bettas get finrot while you hear of some bettas kept in appalling conditions living to the ripe old age of 3. Am not saying all well cared for bettas get finrot, and no badly kept ones get it, but still, it's curious.

I think 'store inbreeding' is a bit of an throw-all answer.

Any thoughts?

Am basically wondering whether too much space can be bad for them? ???

 

My theory is since fin rot is non-life threatining if treated, the bettas in the good clean places know that they will get taken care of + get extra attention. Therefore, they have "their ways" to get the fin rot.

Now, the ones in the dirty little bowls know that getting fin rot could be bad news: therefore, they are able to keep it away.

I hope my scientific analysis has helped ;D

 

I have been asking this question, as I think everybody with bettas who get finrot have!! And it really picks me when anything written about finrot says it is usually because of poor water conditions or overcrowding!! From what I can tell posting and reading and getting to know people on this website, we all actually overcompensate with lots of love, bigger tanks; attention.....all as you said.

When I brought Wink JS home I had thought I would keep him in a little tank with only an airstone, and experiment. When it came down to doing it, I just couldn't do it, and so he got the large tank, filter, heater, etc!!

It is the million dollar question and whomever can answer it correctly should be made a saint.

By the way, did you know that in the wild, on humid nights, some species of betta fish can actually "walk" on their ventrals overland to another water puddle/lake/whatever you call it? That blew me away!!!! Love these fish!

Everytime I see one of my fish with a bit of finrot, I feel so inadequate and guilty!!! Why, Why, Why ??? Sometimes I think my cats visit and paw at the tank when we are away..........stress................I just don't know. Although my one cat who is interested only goes to Neptune, who was the first fish.........I don't think he/they actually know there are 3 tanks/4 fish now!!! When I see him, he is just laying in front of the tank sleeping or watching but who knows what goes on when I am not here??

Anyway, I could rant on, I think I'll get at my chores instead. Bit waterchange day for my divided 10 gallon today........

Val

 

I think fish with really long fins are just going to be more prone to finrot because they are dragging their fins on the gravel, across plants and ornaments etc. Even if it is a fairly smooth surface there must be some microscopic abrasions on the fins and because bacteria is present in ALL tanks, no matter how clean, sometimes it finds it's way into the abrasions and infects it. Many of us here have both males and females yet you rarely hear of anyone saying their female has finrot. Their short fins protect them more.
All you can really do is make sure you keep up with water changes and very thoroughly vacuum the gravel (I do it every week). Some folks here use a turkey baster for that though I can't imagine doing that myself. It would take forever and could never really get the deep down sludge. I have a gravel vac made for the BiOrb tanks that has quite powerful suction and sucks up the gravel inside it and really cleans the sludge. The gravel vac I use costs about $12 and is really worth it. Maybe this would help?
People who keep Bettas is bowls often clean the whole bowl including rinsing the gravel so maybe that's how they inadvertently prevent finrot. I haven't had a single case of finrot other than Rocky who probably came to me sick already from the appalling conditions I found him in.
I am going to be buying an EHEIM battery-operated sludge remover tool soon too so I can vacuum the gravel even better. This tool cleans by sucking up the dirty water, passing it through a filter and the water goes back in the tank. This way you can vacuum longer without the tank emptying out. Of course you will still need to do the water changes afterward. With a regular gravel vac you need to move quickly because it empties the water so fast, at least mine does. This gravel vac is quite expensive (about $75-$100) but I think worth it.
I've never had any problems with my water parameters in spite of deep vaccuming every week, but then most of my tanks are well established. The newer tanks get more of a surface clean and deep vac only once a month.

 

It was a never ending struggle with Kyler's finrot, I never did beat it.

Phlox makes a very good point about the larger fins, which very well could be one of the main reasons - it usually starts with a simple rip and it can go downhill pretty fast thereafter.

Christine gave up on the whole idea of naming her little girl, and just decided to name her 'Fish'... lol. Anyway, 'Fish' had a little tear in her tail, I didn't think much of it at first but then I got thinking about it when I noticed her dorsal had a tear as well and the tail had a hole in it. She was constantly stressed due to the filter current in her tank, and the current isn't really that bad. I've since turned off the filter, and she's been just peachy, holes have been healed and she's showing her stripes less.

Christen was the same, when her tank had the Stingray5 filter in it, she was constantly stressed and her tail started getting rough, removed the filter and she's been fine since. (I know I'll likely get frowned upon for it) but I don't mind keeping up with water changes and such. She's been a much healthier fish without the current. It seems some betta's love it, and others just hate it and get overly stressed with it.

 

Is it a HOB filter? I put a piece of bonded filter pad in front of the water flow (jam it in between the front of filter and the tank lid) and the water still flows into tank but no current at all.
You could also try a small Whisper 3I filter. Even though it says "up to 3 gallons" I use it in some of my 5 gallon tanks and it does a great job, is very cheap and has very little current at all.

 

I think there's so many ways for a Betta to get finrot.. cold, stress, decorations, gravel, blown fins, etc.. I think gravel is more of a factor than a lot of people think. the only Betta of our 9 that has had finrot issues is Aslan and he's the only one who ever had gravel for his substrata. Mickey is a double-tail combtail and Teddy Bear is a halfmoon feathered, yet neither of them has had finrot problems, not even Teddy Bear who has the stress of swim bladder disorder.

 

This is pure speculation, but I think it is also possible the finrot bacteria prefer the temps we keep our tanks at to the temps of bowls. After all, in petstores you see a lot of Bettas in cups with fungus, parasites, constipation, even dropsy, but rarely finrot, even though the cups are so dirty. I have also heard that water flow contributes to finrot in Bettas, though I do not know if any scientific evidence backs this up. It does make sense though that a strong water flow would put a lot of pressure on the very large area of Bettas' fins, as compared to fish with very small fins who can slip through the current easily.

 

I don't know.. at our deathco, about 1/2 the bettas have finrot.

 

This is pure speculation, but I think it is also possible the finrot bacteria prefer the temps we keep our tanks at to the temps of bowls. After all, in petstores you see a lot of Bettas in cups with fungus, parasites, constipation, even dropsy, but rarely finrot, even though the cups are so dirty. I have also heard that water flow contributes to finrot in Bettas, though I do not know if any scientific evidence backs this up. It does make sense though that a strong water flow would put a lot of pressure on the very large area of Bettas' fins, as compared to fish with very small fins who can slip through the current easily.

I also think strong water flow can damage fins if they are whipped around too much and especially if they are already weakened with the beginnings of finrot. I think the airstone in Rocky's tank may have blown away his fins last week when he suddenly lost a big chunk. I noticed he had discovered that he enjoyed floating directly over the bubbles. It tickled him but may have contributed to him losing more fins. I turned the bubbles down and he's been fine so far. All my filters either produce very light current (Whisper 3i) or I use Bonded filter padding on the HOB filters to reduce the current to almost nothing.
I don't think temp has anything to do with it though. A lot of the Bettas at Petsmart get finrot. I see them isolating them in the back and putting meds in the cup. They don't put them back on display until the rot is healed.

 

Well then chuck the temp idea. Seems like water current may be the main contributing factor for why Bettas in tanks seem to get finrot so often as compared to ones in bowls. Gravel and certain tank ornaments may also be a factor, but those are usually in bowls as well.

Btw, related to the topic, if anyone is having problems with power filters creating way too much flow I'd recommend sponge filters. These create some surface agitation but no actual water current, so they're really nice for Bettas. Plus they like pecking all the little microorganisms off the sponge.

 

But it's often in the webbing part of the fin, not the extremity (for me), so I don't think it necessarily has to be related to contact with substrate.

Most of us are really really really paranoid about it, so we keep our gravel pristine, and we still get the problem.

I am wondering, to be on the safe side, whether going bare-bottom is an idea anyways.

I think fish with really long fins are just going to be more prone to finrot because they are dragging their fins on the gravel, across plants and ornaments etc. Even if it is a fairly smooth surface there must be some microscopic abrasions on the fins and because bacteria is present in ALL tanks, no matter how clean, sometimes it finds it's way into the abrasions and infects it. Many of us here have both males and females yet you rarely hear of anyone saying their female has finrot. Their short fins protect them more.

All you can really do is make sure you keep up with water changes and very thoroughly vacuum the gravel (I do it every week). Some folks here use a turkey baster for that though I can't imagine doing that myself. It would take forever and could never really get the deep down sludge. I have a gravel vac made for the BiOrb tanks that has quite powerful suction and sucks up the gravel inside it and really cleans the sludge. The gravel vac I use costs about $12 and is really worth it. Maybe this would help?

People who keep Bettas is bowls often clean the whole bowl including rinsing the gravel so maybe that's how they inadvertently prevent finrot. I haven't had a single case of finrot other than Rocky who probably came to me sick already from the appalling conditions I found him in.

I am going to be buying an EHEIM battery-operated sludge remover tool soon too so I can vacuum the gravel even better. This tool cleans by sucking up the dirty water, passing it through a filter and the water goes back in the tank. This way you can vacuum longer without the tank emptying out. Of course you will still need to do the water changes afterward. With a regular gravel vac you need to move quickly because it empties the water so fast, at least mine does. This gravel vac is quite expensive (about $75-$100) but I think worth it.

I've never had any problems with my water parameters in spite of deep vaccuming every week, but then most of my tanks are well established. The newer tanks get more of a surface clean and deep vac only once a month.

 

Oooooh, you could be making a good point, here. I'll give that a go too (no filter, or filter off). Although mine is always playing with the current, who knows if it's good for it.

It was a never ending struggle with Kyler's finrot, I never did beat it.

Phlox makes a very good point about the larger fins, which very well could be one of the main reasons - it usually starts with a simple rip and it can go downhill pretty fast thereafter.

Christine gave up on the whole idea of naming her little girl, and just decided to name her 'Fish'... lol. Anyway, 'Fish' had a little tear in her tail, I didn't think much of it at first but then I got thinking about it when I noticed her dorsal had a tear as well and the tail had a hole in it. She was constantly stressed due to the filter current in her tank, and the current isn't really that bad. I've since turned off the filter, and she's been just peachy, holes have been healed and she's showing her stripes less.

Christen was the same, when her tank had the Stingray5 filter in it, she was constantly stressed and her tail started getting rough, removed the filter and she's been fine since. (I know I'll likely get frowned upon for it) but I don't mind keeping up with water changes and such. She's been a much healthier fish without the current. It seems some betta's love it, and others just hate it and get overly stressed with it.

 

Would the gravel issue be to do with the stuff that collects there, or the potential for mechanical damage through tears on their fins? Because I've got round pebbles.

I think there's so many ways for a Betta to get finrot.. cold, stress, decorations, gravel, blown fins, etc.. I think gravel is more of a factor than a lot of people think. the only Betta of our 9 that has had finrot issues is Aslan and he's the only one who ever had gravel for his substrata. Mickey is a double-tail combtail and Teddy Bear is a halfmoon feathered, yet neither of them has had finrot problems, not even Teddy Bear who has the stress of swim bladder disorder.

 

Mmmmmh. There's a lot of food for thought on this one. Temp would be a very reasonable explanation, and it would be reassuring to think that we are at least trading seven evils for one.

This is pure speculation, but I think it is also possible the finrot bacteria prefer the temps we keep our tanks at to the temps of bowls. After all, in petstores you see a lot of Bettas in cups with fungus, parasites, constipation, even dropsy, but rarely finrot, even though the cups are so dirty. I have also heard that water flow contributes to finrot in Bettas, though I do not know if any scientific evidence backs this up. It does make sense though that a strong water flow would put a lot of pressure on the very large area of Bettas' fins, as compared to fish with very small fins who can slip through the current easily.

 

Would the gravel issue be to do with the stuff that collects there, or the potential for mechanical damage through tears on their fins? Because I've got round pebbles.

I think it's the sludge that builds up in it mostly. Because I deep vacuum every week I have never had a problem with finrot until Rocky, who came that way. Of course very sharp rough gravel would do it too. Any coated gravel or polished river rocks would be fine. Having substrate too large would trap dirt deep down in the crevices and make it hard to vacuum properly plus the Betta's tail can easily slip down in between the rocks or marbles and lay in dirt when he sleeps. IMO the best solution is a medium-sized gravel, too big for them to swallow but small enough to keep from having large crevices between rocks for dirt to fall. A gravel vacuum easily stirs and picks up the gravel and thoroughly washes it clean. The other option is no gravel and just bare floor (a bit boring but in really stubborn cases it may help until the fins are healed) This way you can see the dirt and use a vac or turkey baster to clean it daily.

 

I think that sadly you're right about the gravel. My pebbles look really pretty, but make it so hard to vaccuum. I think ideally it shoudl be heard earth, or maybe mud, but that would make the water so dirty.

 

Has anyone ever tried sand in their betta tank? While it's still abrasive, it's also a little more forgiving than gravel.

Or those gem-like rocks you can buy, those seem to be fairly smooth.

 

The problem with sand is that Bettas are known to swallow substrate that is too small, which clogs up their system and can kill them pretty easily. Any substrate in Betta tanks needs to be too big to swallow.

I'm guessing the gravel problem is the same as with Cories. Large gravel pieces accumulate chunks of debris in between them, which causes harmful bacteria to build up, which can then wear down Cories' barbels...or possibly Bettas' tails.

A couple people have mentioned going no filter with Bettas...while I know in general filtration is a necessity, it can potentially be done. I know of quite a few people these days who are keeping 'balanced' tanks--that is, tanks in which there are enough plants to use all the fish waste, so no bio filter is needed. It would be easy to create such a tank with Bettas since a single Betta produces relatively little waste. In fact, the water quality in balanced tanks is generally better than the quality of the water in filtered tanks with few plants.

 

I don't think temp has anything to do with it though. A lot of the Bettas at Petsmart get finrot. I see them isolating them in the back and putting meds in the cup. They don't put them back on display until the rot is healed.

I wish our local deathco did that, they just leave them out to rot & die. :'(

 

Would the gravel issue be to do with the stuff that collects there, or the potential for mechanical damage through tears on their fins? Because I've got round pebbles.

I think there's so many ways for a Betta to get finrot.. cold, stress, decorations, gravel, blown fins, etc.. I think gravel is more of a factor than a lot of people think. the only Betta of our 9 that has had finrot issues is Aslan and he's the only one who ever had gravel for his substrata. Mickey is a double-tail combtail and Teddy Bear is a halfmoon feathered, yet neither of them has had finrot problems, not even Teddy Bear who has the stress of swim bladder disorder.

both, I think.. it seems so easy to snag a delicate betta fin, even with something like that.

 

I'd definitely concur with the 'no small substrate for bettas' line of thinking. Mine ate some gravel and am still dealing with the consequences (he's still alive, but permanently bloated and quite depressed-looking). It's sad: he's got this sharp, gravel-shaped bump in his belly. It's been a month or so and am keeping my fingers crossed that somehow it gets better.

Am toying with the idea of no substrate at all, but then how can I keep plants in there? Oooooh, semi-brain wave here. Maybe if I keep them in their pots and hide the pots with large pebbles around it? Plants won't thrive, but hey.

 

we actually did that in the wild betta tank so we could do away with the substrata.. you can get the good type of small food containers and 'plant' your plants in them. the thing is that with a betta, we still had to use marbles because they'll be curious and swim in and under and around the plants.

 

Mmmmm. That sounds like a plan.

 

Mmmmm. That sounds like a plan.

.. hopefully a good one.

 

You could also just use a combo of plants that attach to things (java fern, java moss, and (I think) Anubias) and floating plants. That way you wouldn't need any containers or substrate.

 

Mmmh. I'd like to keep the surface of the water quite free for breathing. I do have java moss already, but just a little. I live it a lot!

 

I decided a couple months ago to take my substrate out. I found it too hard to get all the poop out with it in there. I used to have marbles in mine. Ever since I did that I haven't had any problems or any major problems I should say with RJ's fins. In fact even the holes that he had in the webbing areas healed and are no more.

I'd definitely concur with the 'no small substrate for bettas' line of thinking. Mine ate some gravel and am still dealing with the consequences (he's still alive, but permanently bloated and quite depressed-looking). It's sad: he's got this sharp, gravel-shaped bump in his belly. It's been a month or so and am keeping my fingers crossed that somehow it gets better.

Am toying with the idea of no substrate at all, but then how can I keep plants in there? Oooooh, semi-brain wave here. Maybe if I keep them in their pots and hide the pots with large pebbles around it? Plants won't thrive, but hey.

I don't have live plants in my tank, so I don't know if this will help you or not. I have two small artificial plants that require the substrate to hold them down. So what I did was I tore 2 small pieces of plastic wrap, wrapped a bunch of marbles in them, and then layed them on the flat piece that you would generally put under the substrate and it works great. They don't bother it either. Sometimes the plastic will bubble up because of the water built in there, but I just squeeze the water out of it until it's flat. Again, I don't know if this help. Natalie

 

Flame has definitely tattered his fins playing. I've slowed his filter and re igged his tank and so far so good.

 

Cujo and Romeo are in mini-bows with no substrate, a silk plant, whisper 3I filters, heaters and a tiny airstone set to lowest flow possible. They get 50% water changes every other day with Prime and NovAqua+ and vitachem. They both have chronic finrot, no matter if they are on meds or off meds.

Jett is in an Eclipse hex 5 gallon with gravel, silk plants, and a little cave. He gets a partial water change once a week with gravel vac. No problems of any sort.

I wish I had answers but I don't. I have done everything right. I have followed all the advice that was given to me, done my own research and followed that, too. I think some fish are going to get it no matter how immaculate their living conditions are, and others are just going to be able to resist it. My fish seem to be ok with it, I am having a harder time but working on it...

 

Mmmmmh. That's a disappointing answer, Jendayi. I was hoping that we'd finally found some kind of a link to their living conditions (i.e. no substrate). It's quite scarey for me as we just don't have the meds that you guys do over in the US. I'm going to need to sit down with Tazmiche and other Europeans one of these days and come up with some kind of a cross-reference grid between meds you get and close equivalents in Europe. Take Trisulfa, for example. We just dont' seem to be able to get that over here. Or VitaChem.

 

It just comes down to being something that has a whole lot of variables to it and just defies Betta owners trying to figure a way to have our bettas be finrot free for good.

 

Yeah, I don't know that there always is a way, though. I mean it's like you: you've been struggling with a couple of your fish, while the rest was fine. It's strange. Maybe it's just something some more weaker bettas perhaps get, and all we can do is minimize the risk with no substrate, super clean water, etc.?

 

the frustrating thing is that the one common factor in our betta problems is they're the bigger tanks (10g). the bettas in the 2.5g and 5 gallon have been healthier. but for another betta owner, the opposite would be the case.

 

Oh really? It just feels so mean to downgrade him. I already feel mean for his 10G as it's a tall hex, so not much horizontal swimming space.

Shame there isn't one really consistent observation. Like you said, for some owners, it's the other way round. Am really at a loss as to what else it could be.

 

yea, there are a million variables starting with genetic strength.. often I think the problems can be traced to that and the poor (at best) breeding techniques many of these 'fish factories' employ to crank out massive numbers with minimal expense to themselves for the pet stores to sell.

 

I will have to say that the source seems to have been the main difference in our bettas. The ONLY betta I had with finrot problems came from other than Miami Aquariums. I have never had finrot in any of my Miami Aquariums bettas. Now Damons fins were thinned when he just about cooked in the tank when the heater went crazy but that is a catastrophic occurence and not a thing that can be considered part of a pattern.

Marty SR. had finrot problems and he was not a Miami Aquariums and Poor Little Nate has yet to get his fins back but is not shrinking any further. I have given up on the treatments and am giving the little guy the clean environment and good food. He is not upset by his condition and every time I try to treat him, he loses more finnage than he gains. He came from Thailand. Those are the only two I have ever had any finrot problems with and they came from questionable sources.

Well that is all I have to add.

Rose

 

All my Bettas came from questionable sources but only one has ever had finrot, and considering the appalling conditions he was living in, I'm surprised that's all he had. I am pretty sure a fancy show Betta probably wouldn't survive such bad treatment for very long. I have read of many Bettas coming from good breeders who get sick just as easily so I don't think that's the biggest reason. Fancy Bettas are often inbred to develop certain colors and fins. That weakens their immune system. It would be nice if breeders focused more on health and temperment (a more docile Betta) rather than color and fins.
I think it may be something in the water supply too since many times those with finrot problems often have multiple Bettas with the same problem. Maybe something that dechlorinators don't remove?

Another thing to consider is random electrical current generated by heaters and filters. I've read this is more common than most people realize (with all brands of heaters, even good ones) and over time can stress the fish and cause finrot and other problems. A grounding wire can be bought and placed in the tank to prevent this and I am getting some for all tanks soon. Big Al's carries them.
Another source of stress is the vibration of air pumps. I keep the pumps off the table the tank is on and make sure the cords are not touching the table or tank as much as possible. I noticed it causes quite a vibration that the fish can feel right through the water. I can't imagine that it wouldn't stress them. I once noticed Noelle had stress stripes and couldn't figure out why. Then I noticed the cord of the airpump had gotten pushed over and was touching the stand she was on. I could feel the vibration just by touching the side of her tank. I moved it away and within minutes her stress stripes were gone.

 

Sorry if someone already said this, I didn't read all of the posts thoroughly.

I think the answer was touched upon in the original post. Inbreeding. The answer was expounded upon in a later post. Large fins.

Most of the bettas that we get at the store are the result of specialized breeding for specific traits. Fish can handle a lot more inbreeding than humans can, but there still is a limit. It's possible that bettas are reaching that limit (especially the really fancy ones, which breeders have fewer breeding options for, and so are more likely to end up mating with a cousin). Combine with this the fact that one of the things that is being bred into the fish is essentially a huge weak spot in the immune system (large, easily damaged fins. Also, it's easier for damage on an extremely long fin to become cut off from the body's immune system. One or two blood vessels blocked by the infection could protect the infection from antibodies and whatnot), and they are just going to be more susceptible to fin rot.
It probably doesn't help that a betta's preferred water temperature is quite a bit higher than most tropical fish's. It could very well be that the infection that causes fin rot multiplies much more rapidly as the temperature grows closer to 80.

This has happened in other animals. Koi had to have a wild carp bloodline reintroduced some time ago, because the fish were getting far too fragile. It would take bettas a lot less time to develop problems from inbreeding, as their reproduction cycle is quite a bit faster than that of koi.
It's also happened in several breeds of dog, such as pugs. I want a pug so badly, but I would never have the patience to deal with all of the health problems. At best, I'd probably end up with a dog that had asthma. At worst, their eyes can actually pop out of their sockets.

I'd be interested to hear from the people who keep the "wild" bettas if they've had issues with fin rot or not, and how it compares with occurrences of fin rot in domesticated bettas.

 

the long fins are a huge factor - they're not meant to be like that, as much as we love the pretty WOW factor! our females don't have fin rot problems and neither have our wilds, but our butterfly male and combtail male have been good too - the only have things with ZERO chance of fin snags in their tanks and we clean the tanks weekly and add vitachem every day or 2 and that's the reason they've done so well I think. safe decorations, clean water and vitamins help reduce the finrot-causing factors tremendously.