Why could my German Blue Ram have died for ?

I had for about a month in a 20 gallon Tall :

- 6 Khulis
- 6 Black Skirt Tetras (1 WST, 1 BST, 4 Glofish Tetras)
- 1 German Blue Ramirez (male)
- Few shrimps, few snails

The GBR was added last, about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Water-heater was a pre-set one at 78F with 2 degrees error, so 76-80F. I've been told that 82-85F was better for the Ramirez.

In the 5 first days, it remained at 78-80F, but then I changed for another heater I had that can be adjusted. So then for most of the time, it was a 84F.

Ammonia has been at 0 all around, Nitrites as well, and Nitrates between 5 and 10. I did a 30% WC every 7-to-10 days , or when Nitrate reached 10.

PH : 7.8 (a little high for a Blue Ram, but I figured it would be okay)

Aquarium is heavily planted, lot of hidings. There was no agression. A little chasing between the BST, but they didnt mind the GBR who was chilling with them in the same spots. No fighting on his part neither. Even the Khulis were happilly flying around, not scared of everyone.

One morning, I found my German Blue Ram dead at the bottom of the tank. He was not breathing anymore, but had no signs of violence nor was he eaten anywhere.

I curious on the possible cause of death. He did not have any sign of illness. I was planning on changing the water that day since Nitrates were at 10 the day before.

I removed it right away, check the water parameters : 0/0/20 (must have risen because of the dead body) so I made a 45% Water Change.

What could have killed him ? He was in harmony with his tankmates, was not territorial, it looked like he thought he was a black skirt.

Was my pH too hight for him ? If it's the case, wouldn't he showed some signs first ? I was also crushing small bladder snails on the window and he was eating them. Could he have choked on a shell piece ?

They were eating flakes for tropical fish, some pellets, some frozen blood worms and some frozen brine shrimp. They were all eating with no bullying.

The only thing I can see, beside the PH, is the weather.

The night before I went to bed I saw that my heater was still heating even thought the water was at 86 and the heater was set to stop at 82. So I put it to 78 thinkling it would drop to 82 (he was always over heating). In the morning it was 81-82F. Could a drop of 4-5 F over the course of a night and morning be the case ?

Since he is dead, I've put the previous heater that is more safe and constant at 78F.

Why is he dead, and what other fish could replace it ?

Could I put a small school of neons ?

Or 1 or 2 Tetras (maybe black diamond), or another Ram ? Maybe a Bolivian one ?

The German Blue Ram was my favorite, because only him and the black tetra seemed to like me and came to see me each time I was looking at the tank. The others just reacts to food but dont care about my face. The GBR was following me and when I put my hand in the water he was following it instead of being afraid, cause he knew I would crush him some bladder snails and he loved it. He seemed really happy and had great colors since Temp increase. I thought he was growing strong.

Oh yeas, he was a little smaller than my BSTs. But nobody tried to nip or bite him, and there were no bite marks on his body when I found him dead.

 

I had for about a month in a 20 gallon Tall :

- 6 Khulis
- 6 Black Skirt Tetras (1 WST, 1 BST, 4 Glofish Tetras)
- 1 German Blue Ramirez (male)
- Few shrimps, few snails

The GBR was added last, about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Water-heater was a pre-set one at 78F with 2 degrees error, so 76-80F. I've been told that 82-85F was better for the Ramirez.

In the 5 first days, it remained at 78-80F, but then I changed for another heater I had that can be adjusted. So then for most of the time, it was a 84F.

Ammonia has been at 0 all around, Nitrites as well, and Nitrates between 5 and 10. I did a 30% WC every 7-to-10 days , or when Nitrate reached 10.

PH : 7.8 (a little high for a Blue Ram, but I figured it would be okay)

Aquarium is heavily planted, lot of hidings. There was no agression. A little chasing between the BST, but they didnt mind the GBR who was chilling with them in the same spots. No fighting on his part neither. Even the Khulis were happilly flying around, not scared of everyone.

One morning, I found my German Blue Ram dead at the bottom of the tank. He was not breathing anymore, but had no signs of violence nor was he eaten anywhere.

I curious on the possible cause of death. He did not have any sign of illness. I was planning on changing the water that day since Nitrates were at 10 the day before.

I removed it right away, check the water parameters : 0/0/20 (must have risen because of the dead body) so I made a 45% Water Change.

What could have killed him ? He was in harmony with his tankmates, was not territorial, it looked like he thought he was a black skirt.

Was my pH too hight for him ? If it's the case, wouldn't he showed some signs first ? I was also crushing small bladder snails on the window and he was eating them. Could he have choked on a shell piece ?

They were eating flakes for tropical fish, some pellets, some frozen blood worms and some frozen brine shrimp. They were all eating with no bullying.

The only thing I can see, beside the PH, is the weather.

The night before I went to bed I saw that my heater was still heating even thought the water was at 86 and the heater was set to stop at 82. So I put it to 78 thinkling it would drop to 82 (he was always over heating). In the morning it was 81-82F. Could a drop of 4-5 F over the course of a night and morning be the case ?

Since he is dead, I've put the previous heater that is more safe and constant at 78F.

Why is he dead, and what other fish could replace it ?

Could I put a small school of neons ?

Or 1 or 2 Tetras (maybe black diamond), or another Ram ? Maybe a Bolivian one ?

The German Blue Ram was my favorite, because only him and the black tetra seemed to like me and came to see me each time I was looking at the tank. The others just reacts to food but dont care about my face. The GBR was following me and when I put my hand in the water he was following it instead of being afraid, cause he knew I would crush him some bladder snails and he loved it. He seemed really happy and had great colors since Temp increase. I thought he was growing strong.

Oh yeas, he was a little smaller than my BSTs. But nobody tried to nip or bite him, and there were no bite marks on his body when I found him dead.

Did you quarantine? Acclimate?

 

CO2? Liquid carbon?

 

No CO2. I have put some Flourish but last was about 1 week before I added the Ram.

DId not QT, but I acclimated it.

Let the bag float for about 20 minutes for temperature, then while still floating I added 15 ml of tank water every 5-7 minutes until water in the bag doubled, then poured half the bag away and started again adding 15 ml each 5-7 minutes until bag water doubled again.

Tested PH in the bag and compared to PH in the aquarium : It was the same. I added the Ram in the tank, discarded water from bag, and kept all lights out until next morning. No feeding until next day too.

He was right from the start chilling with the Tetras, and there was no aggression nor chasing in between species. He was eating well, was active and curious, and remained so until his last night, about 3 weeks later.

He was pale at first due to stress, but started to get some colors (blue specks) and a little yellow on body.

After I increased the temp, he got more colors: red face and colors on fins. More blue as well.

And then he dire.

 

No CO2. I have put some Flourish but last was about 1 week before I added the Ram.

DId not QT, but I acclimated it.

Let the bag float for about 20 minutes for temperature, then while still floating I added 15 ml of tank water every 5-7 minutes until water in the bag doubled, then poured half the bag away and started again adding 15 ml each 5-7 minutes until bag water doubled again.

Tested PH in the bag and compared to PH in the aquarium : It was the same. I added the Ram in the tank, discarded water from bag, and kept all lights out until next morning. No feeding until next day too.

He was right from the start chilling with the Tetras, and there was no aggression nor chasing in between species. He was eating well, was active and curious, and remained so until his last night, about 3 weeks later.

He was pale at first due to stress, but started to get some colors (blue specks) and a little yellow on body.

After I increased the temp, he got more colors: red face and colors on fins. More blue as well.

And then he dire.

Next time quarantine, it is better for the fish.

 

Any prior experience with the LFS where you bought the Ram? And where they source their Rams from?

Although the temperature issues you mentioned were probably not the best for him, Rams can have issues if not sourced from a reputable breeder.

 

7.8 is way high for German blue rams, the highest you should have them is 7, and they should at best be closer to 6. They need a very well established tank, not just has beneficial bacteria, it has to be running for a few months afterwards. Also it is a very delicate fish, sudden changes could kill it, like the temp. changing super fast. And for replacements, appistos are a lot more hardy. And very colorful.

 

7.8 is way high for German blue rams, the highest you should have them is 7, and they should at best be closer to 6. They need a very well established tank, not just has beneficial bacteria, it has to be running for a few months afterwards. Also it is a very delicate fish, sudden changes could kill it, like the temp. changing super fast. And for replacements, appistos are a lot more hardy. And very colorful.

Sorry, but some of your comments are just not true.

I‘ve kept very healthy Rams at a pH of 7.2 - 7.4. Not unlike many fish, they can also be prone to health issues if not raised by or sourced from a reputable breeder. Also not unlike many fish, they can also be harmed by sudden changes, including temperature changes.

But to generally categorize them as a delicate fish is not correct in my opinion and experience.

 

Any prior experience with the LFS where you bought the Ram? And where they source their Rams from?

Although the temperature issues you mentioned were probably not the best for him, Rams can have issues if not sourced from a reputable breeder.

It's a LFS that is pretty reputable in Montreal. I'm not sure where they get their Rams from however.

He was the last one and was in a tank with White Skirts Tetras.

I got bloodfins tetras from them in the past, got 8 and 3 died the next day. The surviving 5 were good for a few months then I gave them to someone.

7.8 is way high for German blue rams, the highest you should have them is 7, and they should at best be closer to 6. They need a very well established tank, not just has beneficial bacteria, it has to be running for a few months afterwards. Also it is a very delicate fish, sudden changes could kill it, like the temp. changing super fast. And for replacements, appistos are a lot more hardy. And very colorful.

The tank has been established for a few months, as before I got the Black Skirt Tetras, I had 3 baby goldfish in it for a couple of months while they were still small, before moving them to a way bigger tank (they are now in a 150g, but not at my place).

I knew that the PH was high for a Ram, but I thought that he was going to be okay as long as there is no sudden changes to it, and my 7.8 is pretty constant.

I also thought that if there was an issue with him regarding the PH I woyld have seen some sympyoms on him or on its way of acting.

I guess it was the PH afterall, or the 6 degree drop in a same night that got it.

As for Apisto, any suggestion of one (or a pair) that could fit well with my Black Skirts and with my parameters ?

 

Unforunatly it’s just guessing now. I don’t think the ph was a problem. As long as its steady it should be good. Many keep discus at that ph. Ask your pet store what the ph is in there tanks that will give you an idea how off you were. But being in your tank for a month and eating I say it just died. It happens. I’ve kept Rams at 78-79 and they’ve lived 5 years. At 84 they lived 2yrs. So I’m not sure what the right temp is. All died the same way. Looked fine one day dead the next.

 

It's because the GBRs from big fish farms in the East which supply many if not most big box and LFS are "juiced"
on antibiotics. This lasts just long enough for the fish to be sold and in the end users tank. Because they evolved in soft acidic water that kills bacteria they have a poor immune system, which becomes overwhelmed when the drugs wear off.

If you can source locally raised ones, they will likely be more robust.

 

That makes sense. For now, I did not get a new GBR to replace him, even though I know my adventure with Rams is only on pause. I'm thinking maybe a species only tank for them in the future, or another community tank but with more room to get more than one.

For now, I replaced the Blue Ram with a Dwarf Gourami and a Serpae Tetra. I know the Serpae is supposed to be schooling, but he seems pretty similar in shape, fins and size, with my Black Skirts so I'll see if he's gonna chill with them. If they bully him I'll bring in back to the LFS.

So far there is a little chasing between the BST and the Serpae, but it's not violent and the BST chase each others too so they pretty much act like he's one of them, as for the Serpae he's not constantly hiding and keeps swimming with them anyways so it could be could.

As for the DG, nobody cares about him, he just swims slowly in place and minds his own business.

We'll see how it goes!

 

That makes sense. For now, I did not get a new GBR to replace him, even though I know my adventure with Rams is only on pause. I'm thinking maybe a species only tank for them in the future, or another community tank but with more room to get more than one.

For now, I replaced the Blue Ram with a Dwarf Gourami and a Serpae Tetra. I know the Serpae is supposed to be schooling, but he seems pretty similar in shape, fins and size, with my Black Skirts so I'll see if he's gonna chill with them. If they bully him I'll bring in back to the LFS.

So far there is a little chasing between the BST and the Serpae, but it's not violent and the BST chase each others too so they pretty much act like he's one of them, as for the Serpae he's not constantly hiding and keeps swimming with them anyways so it could be could.

As for the DG, nobody cares about him, he just swims slowly in place and minds his own business.

We'll see how it goes!

In my opinion and experience, a species only tank is best for GBRs.

If you want awesome quality Rams, hook up with coralbandit. He breeds them well!

Edit: Sorry, just noticed you’re in Canada.