Who to Breed? (lots of pics)

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Tys15

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So far I have done two "trial" breedings with my red veil tail 'Xyston', and now that i have the hang of it I think it's getting close to trying it for real. Im giving away the last of the 50 babies this sunday so i'll have my breeding tank empty.

The only problem is I have three possible candidates for my male, i'm leaning towards Sirius because i love his colors, but Skye builds the biggest nests I have ever seen, and of course my new opaque is the youngest and therefore most likely to want to breed.

If anyone has any thought or opinions on who I should breed please let me know.

Sirius:
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Skye:
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Opaque:
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Xyston was mad at being left out...
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Aquagirl1978

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They are all gorgeous guys im partial though, i LOVE blue, but your opaque is quite cool, I have never seen a white Betta. But of course Sirius has great colors too, He could be the new Steelers mascot, lol.
 

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Well it depends what you're trying to do, and what you know of the Males blood lines.
If you just want to breed to colour then you'll need to look into how to get the colour you want or just choose the most active and vibrant. If you want to work on form then choose the pair that's the most complimentary (ie pair a weak dorsal with a strong dorsal, or less ray branching with more).
What are the females? VT, HM, SD, CT, etc.
 
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Tys15

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Well it depends what you're trying to do, and what you know of the Males blood lines.
If you just want to breed to colour then you'll need to look into how to get the colour you want or just choose the most active and vibrant. If you want to work on form then choose the pair that's the most complimentary (ie pair a weak dorsal with a strong dorsal, or less ray branching with more).
What are the females? VT, HM, SD, CT, etc.
I don't know the wild type females, the red Cambodian is DT SD, and the turquise is HM.

My opaque and Skye have unknown bloodlines, my Sirius is a cross from a "mustard gas" male and a chocolate female.

As of right now my goal is to increase the size of the dorsal fins on the males sold at the pet store I work at, they just seem skinny and un-attractive, and I have lots of spare time. The store supplied me with some of the equipment. This thrid breeding is more of a way to get some different females to choose from, the ones around here are all same color, tail, etc.

I have two different females that I have were shipped as plakat males with the halfmoon order we got at the store.
 

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Ok here's some advice from what you've mentioned.

By the time this third spawn gives you some females to work with, odds are the males you have now will be too old to work with (large age differences in pairs can lead to spawning issues). So that's a bad mentality to approach this with. You need to look at the fish you have and decide where you want to go with them. Increasing dorsals is good but are you planning to work with DT's, HM, CT, VT etc. Are you planning to work with them all? The trick to improving on a trait is not to let the rest fall while you do it. So with this in mind look at your males and decide what their strengths and weaknesses are relative to where you want them to be. Now do the same with you're females.

Now with you're goal fish in mind decide what male female pair combined has the traits you want without sacrificing too much in other area's. You can keep colour in mind but remember that colour gene's are pretty complicated and even a good coat of paint can't fix a badly built house.

If you want to work with HM's then crossing them with anything else is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot, it'll heal up in time but won't do any good right away and it will take a number of generations to get HM's again. Sometimes this is worth it sometimes it's not.

The Cambo female will probably have the broadest dorsal (thanks to the DT) and can be a good short-cut way to get a broader dorsal, however the DT gene can carry a lot of mutations with it if you aren't careful. On a one time cross probably not an issue but it will take time to get the HM's back, and DT's will pop up in the line breeding and could become a issue later.

The turquoise HM female would be a good choice as well. She'd let you keep the HM you already have and you can work with selection to improve the dorsal. It would take longer but save some of the set backs of out crossing to the DT.

The wild type females you'll have to judge on form. Likely they'll be VT/PK stock (because most lines have colored females as well) and if the goal is simply to give you some new stock to improve on from there then there isn't really anything wrong with using them either.

For you're boys keep in mind that they have recessive colour genes so especially since you're working with an out cross all sorts of colours and combinations will likely come up. You're opaque boy is a "Steel blue" genetically and I doubt you'd get many opaque fry but I haven't really researched opaque's much, just enough to know they're complicated and develop a red wash with age.

I don't know if any of that helped or not....
 
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Tys15

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I hadn't thought about the tails to be honest, I suppose that's what you meant about certain traits suffering.

Is the halfmoon recessive when bred with a veil? If I breed my Sirius with a wild female is there any possibilty of halfmoon fry or will they be delta or veil at best? (not my plan, just basic genetics question)
 

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HM is a multi factorial trait meaning there is a combination of genes as well as environmental factors (water quality) that play into it. HM x HM won't give you a 100% HM spawn (because multiple genes need to be present) and because you need an environment conductive to the development of the HM potential.

VT is the dominant mutation of the wild type tail (pk), and this mutation has been mutated into all the other long tail variants that you can see today.

With a HM x VT you'd likely get Delta's some Super Delta's and you'd see a lot of VT influence (and possible VT as well if one of the parents has PK in their back ground). It's not the end of the world it would just take a lot of careful selection to isolate the HM genes again.
 
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Tys15

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You're a great help! Thank you.

Right now I can think of three options:

1) Breed with one of the wild females and deal with the conciquences later.

2) Try to grow my turquise female to a better size to breed and reduce the negitive effects. From my understanding though this still could have basically the same results, just no veils.

3) Get the store I work at to order me a matching female for Sirius, setting me back about 2 weeks. Then there's always the chance they won't breed and I would have really accomplished nothing.
 

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Hmmm...
Try thinking like this instead.
Ask yourself, Why you are breeding? What are you hoping to achieve both long and short term from it? (HINT: If the answer is to get rich, I have some bad news for you )
Once you know where you want to be then you can plan (at least vaguely) how to get there.

For example if you aren't in a hurry to breed show quality fish, or you don't have the $$$ to do so then option 1 isn't really a big deal. Yes you may lose the HM and end up with VT style fish but that will give you a younger generation of stock to build from. It'll just be a bit more work to get it to where you would have been had you not (and VT's don't really sell as well).

Before I can answer option two I have to ask how old this crew of yours is to begin with. Two small a female isn't as bad as too large a female. If you think she's to tiny then pristine frequently changed water, and put her on a conditioning diet (high protein etc.) will help. Putting her in a larger volume of water alone to "grow out" will help as well. As to the negatives... I'm not sure what you meant.

If you're refering to the HMxHM not giving you 100% HM's that's genetic. There isn't anything you can do about that other then frequent water changes while they're growing to try and keep and ideal enviroment. It's like trying to breed for a specific colour. You put two Royal Blues in a tank and you'll get 50% royals, 25% steel's, and 25% green's, that's just a genetic fact. You'll still get your HM's just not as many as you thought. And not all your HM's will show HM, heck you might even get some PK's if both parents are recessive carriers. You'll get things you never even thought of regardless of what you try here beceause 1) you're doing an outcross and 2) not all things genetic are visable. I know breeders who've worked with a line for generations, now grand-parents 5 or more back on each side, who STILL have some recessive trait pop up in their lines they didn't know about.

As for the third option: I think that this one would be fine to do anyway. An extra female is always good and you could use her to start a 2nd line and work with two and see how things go on each. As for accomplishing nothing... well you'd still have the other female.
 
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Tys15

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Thank you for all your help. I will be sure to let you know what I decide.
And I hadn't hoped on getting rich lol, I just love watching the little fry grow, because you never know what they turn out like. Plus the reward of seeing as those little babies swimming around is a great feeling.
 
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Tys15

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I had the tank open up yesterday so I introduced the pair this morning. The has been building his nest for the entire time, and the female has nice bars. I don't know if I should release her tonight or tomorrow after school?

Here is his nest after 8 hours work:
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Tys15

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Update: I released the female last night and I had to remove her this morning, Sirius beat her up pretty bad and I couldn't go to school knowing he could kill her. I may try again with a different female this weekend.
 
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