When do blushing angelfish lose their blush?

angelcraze

I just bought two new angelfish, they are blushing angelfish, and still have their translucent gills. At which age does the gill plate harden and they develop the guanine patches?

I'm pretty excited about this, i'm adding them to the blue silver pearlscale angelfish I brought home last night in QT. The blue angelfish are the same size as the blushing angels I bought today. They are already doing well today eating and such, so I thought perfect timing. I actually had my eye on the blushing ones months ago, they were still at the LFS because they were pricey, but I at least know they are healthy enough as a candidate to combine QT sources.

Anyway, these are my first blushing angelfish and i'm excited to watch them grow and learn about the gene. I've seen some helpful articles and threads here, but didn't find at what age they lose the blushing appearance.
 

86 ssinit

Sorry no clue on the blushing angels. But would luv to see pics! Also of the blue angels. Got these this week. They were also in the store for over a month. They’re called blue faced angels.
AA686C62-BF21-4A50-ACB7-7DD8219CC6F1.jpeg
87E23AFA-68D6-4BE4-AA97-F03E7C7ECA75.jpeg
 

angelcraze

Oh wow, those are gorgeous! Blue zebra veiltail. I read the zebra and smokie genes intensity the blue coloration, but that blue is so vibrant! I saw some like that at an angelfish site, they called them electric blue. Mine are not as special, but these stains are hard to come by here. I had to special order these pinoys. They ended up being pearlscale, which was a nice surprise. I think they have a bit of finrot from the shipment bag, but that should heal with good water quality. Does anyone know what the black edges are on their fins? I've added some IALs for now.
Here are some pics of the blue pinoy

20191102_231644.jpg
20191102_231047.jpg
20191102_230557.jpg
I tried to get their color, but their not so blue yet. I do hope they are in fact blue pinoy....Does anyone have a guess?

And the new platinum paraiba

20191102_223434.jpg
20191102_223418.jpg
I noticed the two platinum blushing don't like eachother. At least the young angels are all getting along ok for now. They are chippier than I expected for young angels though. I bet they are very hungry.

Thought i'd add a couple shots more of the group. I tend to focus on the darker ones.

20191103_011149.jpg
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angelcraze

At Mcasella or bizaliz3, any guesses as to if these are actually pinoy? I'm a bit scared they are single dose blue. Could a supplier still call single dose blue angels 'blue' angels? I wouldn't, but you never know with these suppliers.
 

bizaliz3

At Mcasella or bizaliz3, any guesses as to if these are actually pinoy? I'm a bit scared they are single dose blue. Could a supplier still call single dose blue angels 'blue' angels? I wouldn't, but you never know with these suppliers.

The don't look blue or pinoy to me.
A pinoy is a blue Angel with one or two dark genes. I don't feel like I see a dark gene there. They also don't look blue to me. Maybe its the lighting. But they definitely do not look dark OR blue to me.
And no way should a seller advertise heterozygous blues to be pinoy or blue. They must be homozygous. That's like calling a non albino fish an albino because you know it has a recessive albino gene. The fish is not albino with one gene. Same goes for blues.
 

angelcraze

The don't look blue or pinoy to me.
A pinoy is a blue Angel with one or two dark genes. I don't feel like I see a dark gene there. They also don't look blue to me. Maybe its the lighting. But they definitely do not look dark OR blue to me.
And no way should a seller advertise heterozygous blues to be pinoy or blue. They must be homozygous. That's like calling a non albino fish an albino because you know it has a recessive albino gene. The fish is not albino with one gene. Same goes for blues.
Thanks, I have my doubts as to whether they are blue and pinoy as well. I paid enough for them, so if they are not, I'm pretty disappointed with the supplier, but I am happy they are pearlscale at least. It could be the lighting though. I have a pink light filter for the tank as I was keeping it dI'm for the newbies and they are still very small at 1.5 inches long.

Thank you for your opinion though, and while I have you (thanks!), when would you say blushing fish lose their blush?
 

bizaliz3

The blushing trait doesn't really follow a timeline. In fact, some adult blushers retain one or both pink "cheeks" indefinitely. Most do not though.
I've had some lose their blush very young. Some much later. I really haven't noticed any pattern as to when it happens.
 

angelcraze

On a side note bump, I don't know what
the dark fin edges are on the 'pinoy' angelfish? I thought it was finrot, but I've never seen this? Is it a dark gene? Lol i'm trying to be optimistic!
 

bizaliz3

On a side note bump, I don't know what
the dark fin edges are on the 'pinoy' angelfish? I thought it was finrot, but I've never seen this? Is it a dark gene? Lol i'm trying to be optimistic!

Fin rot wouldnt be dark in color. So I'm guessing it's their natural coloring. I don't think it's a dark gene causing it though.
 

angelcraze

Ok update, the more I watch them, and I guess the more they settle in, the more they are looking like pinoy. I can see dark lace fins, they are just not so dark yet. The bossy ones are darker. As for the blue, i'm not going to say they are not blue. I think there is a subtle hint of blue. They are hungry hungry angelfish, very aggressively eating NLS 0.5mm pellets already, so maybe they will color up. I really can't get good pictures, so I made a quick video, hopefully it is more clear.
 

Momgoose56

I love the video! Angel's are so graceful looking and mesmerizing to watch! Which brings up your question. I think I know the answer now! Blushing Angel's will lose their blush when you quit staring at them and telling them how beautiful they are! That was simple lol!
 

angelcraze

Lol, you are sooooo right! I am 100% starring at them so constantly my eyes are dry! Are they pinoy? Do I see blue? Lol! Well regardless, I agree, i'm excited to see what they look like in a couple weeks. I already really love them! Thanks for the kind words

Oh and I took a pic of the QT tank.
I moved the fake plant on the left so it made more of a site blocker, because they are acting too big for the tank! One 'pinoy' is particularly aggressive for food, he's always shooing the other angels away, he is on top strata, the alfa. It's funny how soon they establish hierarchy.

20191103_173104.jpg
The IALs are already staining the water. It's a 40g, but I only have it filled about 16" for now.
 

Mcasella

Not seeing any pinoy or blue, blue will show up very early in fry, normally around dime size. Pinoy is going to be a play on blue with a black gene, no blue, no pinoy. And they aren't dark enough for a dark gene to be viable.
 

angelcraze

Not seeing any pinoy or blue, blue will show up very early in fry, normally around dime size. Pinoy is going to be a play on blue with a black gene, no blue, no pinoy. And they aren't dark enough for a dark gene to be viable.
Tx, well that is rather disappointing! But! they were still very stressed....I just added them to my tank after traveling across the world and they aren't showing colors yet. Anyway, they are much darker now, two in particular. Tbh, I never saw dark fins in any of my blue silvers, and I think I see a slight hint of blue now. They are not amazingly blue, but I'll give them a couple weeks of good water and healthy food and see where that gets them. It's my first time seeing the dark gene, so I really don't know if the lace fills in more as they mature.

Also I looked at pics of pinoy angelfish and they have the darker edges on the fins like mine do. Never noticed that before. The fins are worn down a bit, but when they'll regrow.

Also what do you mean by "Pinoy is going to be a play on blue with a black gene, no blue, no pinoy." Do you just mean pinoy angels have two blue genes and at least one dark gene?

Did you watch the video or just look at the pics?
 

bizaliz3

angelcraze typically the dark gene darkens the body as well. Not just the fins. That's where I'm thinking not pinoy. (Because yes...pinoy is 2 blue genes with one OR two dark genes)

Where were you looking at pinoy photos? I only ask because I find pinoy to be the one of the most commonly mislabeled phenotypes out there. Meaning non pinoy labeled as pinoy. Not the other way around.
 

angelcraze

Like this


I'll try to get better pics once they are colored up, I think that's the problem. They are darker than my blue silvers, but less blue.

Regardless, I like them a lot, really missed having young angels. Thanks for your help
 

Mcasella

Lace angels will have darker color appearance to the fins, lace is associated with zebra gene rather than a dark gene. Pinoy requires two blue genes and one or two dark/black genes. Without blue they cannot be pinoy. Most stressed blues will still not have any bronze to them (I'll snag a shot of some extremely stressed ones for you, they are pale but visibly blue).
Dont get me wrong they are very beautiful angels, just don't think they are blue or pinoy based on what I can see.

Stressed blue silver.
20191105_135645.jpg
 

angelcraze

Thank you Mcasella, what about these?


I've seen some pinoy with lighter bodies, most usually the paraibas with two stripeless genes. If they are pinoy, they only have one dark gene and if they are blue, they are not that blue yet. Hard to get it on camera really.

I'm going back and forth, it's driving me a bit crazy lol, so I'll try to show it in a pic in a couple weeks maybe. We'll see eventually haha!
 

Mcasella

The linked angels have two blue and at least one dark gene, no gold gene, but they may just be silver markeds that have had more light exposure (which can make a silver lose some stripes making it look like a ghost).
 

angelcraze

I'm definitely still doubting they are all pinoy, but I changed the lighting and tried to get more pics. Here are two that I thought showed the dark gene and the other shows the blue better.

This one shows no blue IMO, but has nice lacey fins (I think)

20191105_150903.jpg
And this one caught the light nicely to show blue

20191105_150512.jpg
I also auto edited the pics to hopefully show colors better.

The silver looking ones are larger than the ones with faint blue. Consistent with my observation that blue angels grow more slowly. Although I've never had silver angels to compare. Just slower than my gold angels.

What do you think?

Btw, i'm sorry to be a pain, I agree they do not all look pinoy yet. Still trying to optimistic. I wanted to breed them eventually, so I wanted those more genes!
 

Lypress

I just bought two new angelfish, they are blushing angelfish, and still have their translucent gills. At which age does the gill plate harden and they develop the guanine patches?

I'm pretty excited about this, i'm adding them to the blue silver pearlscale angelfish I brought home last night in QT. The blue angelfish are the same size as the blushing angels I bought today. They are already doing well today eating and such, so I thought perfect timing. I actually had my eye on the blushing ones months ago, they were still at the LFS because they were pricey, but I at least know they are healthy enough as a candidate to combine QT sources.

Anyway, these are my first blushing angelfish and i'm excited to watch them grow and learn about the gene. I've seen some helpful articles and threads here, but didn't find at what age they lose the blushing appearance.
There are some that don’t lose their blush. Most do sometime between juvenile and adult from my experience but I had 1 female that never lost hers. It never even faded...not sure why. I had her about 3 years and then my male angel killed her. He almost became plant fertilizer.....I was angry and heartbroken. But I still loved him and wouldn’t REALLY hurt him I was just kidding lol.
 

Mcasella

I'm definitely still doubting they are all pinoy, but I changed the lighting and tried to get more pics. Here are two that I thought showed the dark gene and the other shows the blue better.

This one shows no blue IMO, but has nice lacey fins (I think)

20191105_150903.jpg
And this one caught the light nicely to show blue

20191105_150512.jpg
I also auto edited the pics to hopefully show colors better.

The silver looking ones are larger than the ones with faint blue. Consistent with my observation that blue angels grow more slowly. Although I've never had silver angels to compare. Just slower than my gold angels.

What do you think?

Btw, i'm sorry to be a pain, I agree they do not all look pinoy yet. Still trying to optimistic. I wanted to breed them eventually, so I wanted those more genes!
The top looks like a nice silver pearl (doesn't seem to be a lace, not seeing signs of zebra gene).
The bottom one looks like it might be a blue silver pearl, no pinoy though. How much does the contrast in autoedit change?
 

angelcraze

The top looks like a nice silver pearl (doesn't seem to be a lace, not seeing signs of zebra gene).
The bottom one looks like it might be a blue silver pearl, no pinoy though. How much does the contrast in autoedit change?
Tx. Here are the original screen captures. They are always moving and I can't get a clear pic!

20191105_154003.jpg
20191105_154020.jpg

Mcasella, do you see a dark gene on the first one?
 

Mcasella

Tx. Here are the original screen captures. They are always moving and I can't get a clear pic!

20191105_154003.jpg
20191105_154020.jpg

Mcasella, do you see a dark gene on the first one?
No I dont.
 

angelcraze

There are some that don’t lose their blush. Most do sometime between juvenile and adult from my experience but I had 1 female that never lost hers. It never even faded...not sure why. I had her about 3 years and then my male angel killed her. He almost became plant fertilizer.....I was angry and heartbroken. But I still loved him and wouldn’t REALLY hurt him I was just kidding lol.
The two I picked have really noticeable blushing cheeks, I wish I had known before I picked them, but now i'm thinking the blushing cheeks are kinda cute. I think they'll retain the blush, it's so there!

20191105_154630.jpg
That's ok, I just want them to healthy

No I dont.
Ahhh bummer. I ordered pinoy angelfish. The pearlscale was a bonus, but that's all I confidently say they are. Pretty disappointing I must say. I don't have one fish that looks like it has both a dark gene and two blue genes.

Why does the first one have so much black on the fins? A long time ago, angelfish with one dark gene were called black lace, that's why I keep saying lace.
 

Mcasella

Really nice silver angels have that much black in the fins. I've got a veil fin prebreeder one that colors that nicely.
 

bizaliz3

Ahhh bummer. I ordered pinoy angelfish. The pearlscale was a bonus, but that's all I confidently say they are. Pretty disappointing I must say. I don't have one fish that looks like it has both a dark gene and two blue genes.

Why does the first one have so much black on the fins? A long time ago, angelfish with one dark gene were called black lace, that's why I keep saying lace.

This is a photo of a black lace from the angelfish society phenotype library. As you can see, the body is darker as well.
20191105_161615.jpg
 

angelcraze

This is a photo of a black lace from the angelfish society phenotype library. As you can see, the body is darker as well.
20191105_161615.jpg
Thank you. I was hoping the fins would get more lacey as they mature, but I guess not.

Also as I watch them today, it's looking like the 3 smaller ones are blue silver and the larger 4 are plain silver. I can see a difference between them. But also the smaller blue ones don't have the black fins. They look like my blue silvers only pearscale. So at least I got 3 blue angels out of it.

Also I see what you mean Mcasella about the zebra gene, I think blue leopard is my new interest ha!
Whatever fish is. Gorgeous!
 

angelcraze

So I've been down the rabbit hole looking at angelfish pictures with the new info I got here about the lacey fins being more a zebra thing then pinoy. I noticed a lot of pinoy look greenish instead of blue (the darker body).

So with fish, it is pinoy clown? I love that fish! If I was interested in the dark lacey fins, but prefer the lighter bluer coloration, would I look at blue zebra or clown without pinoy like or ?
Actually I can't find a zebra with dark lacey fins unless they call it pinoy. Most of the angels with dark lacey fins are called pinoy. Maybe the last links I posted are really pinoy? The body is not that dark? I always thought that was difference between one or two dark genes. Btw, I understand now that my fish's fins are not lacey, just nice and dark.

Like one is definitely not zebra pinoy. It doesn't have dark lacey fins either though....
And ones, nice fish, but these blue zebras do not have dark lacey fins? My fish have darker fins.....
So hard to understand this when everything is mislabeled.

I talked to my LFS fish guy and he said a lot of these Asian suppliers might not even know what pinoy means, and they just guess looking at the fish, that language barriers play a role. I see how they were fooled since I was also fooled with the dark fins haha! Anyway, I still got some nice fish.

But trying to figure out what I actually want is confusing!
 

bizaliz3

So I've been down the rabbit hole looking at angelfish pictures with the new info I got here about the lacey fins being more a zebra thing then pinoy. I noticed a lot of pinoy look greenish instead of blue (the darker body).

So with fish, it is pinoy clown? I love that fish! If I was interested in the dark lacey fins, but prefer the lighter bluer coloration, would I look at blue zebra or clown without pinoy like or ?
Actually I can't find a zebra with dark lacey fins unless they call it pinoy. Most of the angels with dark lacey fins are called pinoy. Maybe the last links I posted are really pinoy? The body is not that dark? I always thought that was difference between one or two dark genes. Btw, I understand now that my fish's fins are not lacey, just nice and dark.

Like one is definitely not zebra pinoy. It doesn't have dark lacey fins either though....
And ones, nice fish, but these blue zebras do not have dark lacey fins? My fish have darker fins.....
So hard to understand this when everything is mislabeled.

I talked to my LFS fish guy and he said a lot of these Asian suppliers might not even know what pinoy means, and they just guess looking at the fish, that language barriers play a role. I see how they were fooled since I was also fooled with the dark fins haha! Anyway, I still got some nice fish.

But trying to figure out what I actually want is confusing!

That's the thing though. A silver with a dark gene is called a black LACE. No zebra involved. But the real Lacey appearance...particularly in the dorsal...comes from the zebra gene. It's not always a dark Lacey appearance though. And the dark gene doesn't always play a roll in the darkness of the fins themselves.

The dark fins vs not dark fins when no dark gene is involved does confuse me. I have blushers with black fins and blushers with lighter fins. But the ones with dark fins do not carry a dark gene. And the blushers with light fins are not platinums or golds. So why are some dark and some light?

The one that gets me the most are the blushers that I got from a pinoy and an albino. Half the babies would have one dark gene. The other half not. The blushers with the dark gene are very dark. Jet black. Which is crazy because they are not double darks and they do NOT carry a gold gene with the dark gene to make them darker. The ones without the dark gene have jet black fins and a very light body. So why such black fins. I haven't really figured out the cause of dark fins on a light fish.

Language barrier can be an issue with phenotype names for sure. And pinoy is certainly one of the most misused names given to pretty much any dark fish. Even with zero blue genes. But a pinoy MUST have 2 blue genes or it is not a pinoy. I hate how misused that name is. BUT I think the bigger issue is that the overseas sellers are making up names. I have seen avatar, cobalt blue, green smoke, etc. A lot of sellers just make up a name based on the appearance rather than sticking with the true phenotype names. And then the LFS believes they are something unique and then overprice them at the shop! Like the chocolate I got recently that was purchased by the LFS as a "green smoke" angel. Its just a silver chocolate. Nothing more. The tank was fill of silver chocolates and silvers smokies.
 

angelcraze

That's the thing though. A silver with a dark gene is called a black LACE. No zebra involved. But the real Lacey appearance...particularly in the dorsal...comes from the zebra gene. It's not always a dark Lacey appearance though. And the dark gene doesn't always play a roll in the darkness of the fins themselves.

The dark fins vs not dark fins when no dark gene is involved does confuse me. I have blushers with black fins and blushers with lighter fins. But the ones with dark fins do not carry a dark gene. And the blushers with light fins are not platinums or golds. So why are some dark and some light?

The one that gets me the most are the blushers that I got from a pinoy and an albino. Half the babies would have one dark gene. The other half not. The blushers with the dark gene are very dark. Jet black. Which is crazy because they are not double darks and they do NOT carry a gold gene with the dark gene to make them darker. The ones without the dark gene have jet black fins and a very light body. So why such black fins. I haven't really figured out the cause of dark fins on a light fish.

Language barrier can be an issue with phenotype names for sure. And pinoy is certainly one of the most misused names given to pretty much any dark fish. Even with zero blue genes. But a pinoy MUST have 2 blue genes or it is not a pinoy. I hate how misused that name is. BUT I think the bigger issue is that the overseas sellers are making up names. I have seen avatar, cobalt blue, green smoke, etc. A lot of sellers just make up a name based on the appearance rather than sticking with the true phenotype names. And then the LFS believes they are something unique and then overprice them at the shop! Like the chocolate I got recently that was purchased by the LFS as a "green smoke" angel. Its just a silver chocolate. Nothing more. The tank was fill of silver chocolates and silvers smokies.
Thanks Biz, I totally agree with all of that. Very interesting about your blushers, I was going to say gold gene for the jet black blushers, but you 'took the words out of my mouth'. So fascinating!

So we don't know what makes the dark fins on a lighter body. Ok I'll roll with that! I'm thinking my silver pearlscales might still be het for blue, so wondering if I could someday get the nice blue fish with dark fins. I'll try to stop saying lace and call it dark. I see the zebra gene modifies the fin patterns, but not all of them are dark. I'll try to call the modification lace and not the dark fins.
 

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