whats wrong?

  1. baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    hi guys, can someone help me?

    i have a sick comet:(

    she has blood in her fins
    clamped and erratic fin movement
    gulping air
    laying at the bottom for ages
    and occasionally flashing

    my 125g tank has just cycled with her in it
    i have plants and an airstone so she shouldnt be gulping air
    dont think its ich as i cant see any salt granular spots on her but some very faint small transparent spots in her fins

    have not medicated yet but have soaked her food in garlic,shes only active at feeding time

    need help asap as ive had her 6yrs and dont want to lose her

    thanks in advance
     
  2. fbn

    fbn Well Known Member Member

    Hello!

    First off, what are the water parameters in her tank? Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate...

    I hope she can come through!
     
  3. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    thanks fbn for quick reply

    ammonia 0
    nitrite 0
    nitrate 20

    water temp 26c
    ive always kept her in a tropical temp
    no new fish introduced

    could it be a result of doing a cycle with her in the tank? ie ammonia poisoning?
     
  4. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    The blood in the fins indicates she could have hemorraghic septicemia. Some sources claim high ammonia levels can trigger this condition but because of the way goldfish can process ammonia I'm more inclined to think it's high nitrites in their case that may be the more likely culprit. A bacteria sets in and starts attacking the blood vessels and as a result blood starts to leak out into the surrounding tissue. If not treated it will destroy vital organs. It's usually quite a slow process and one a fish can suffer with for a long time.

    There is also a viral type of hemorraghic septicemia as well as a bacterial, but from my experience the bacterial is the most common form in our tanks.

    The fish will usually respond quite well to a treatment of Tetracycline or other antibiotics capable of treating gram negative types of bacteria. I'm not sure how available these antibiotics are in England, it seems to me they are rather hard if not impossible to come by for the use on aquarium fish. With knowing what to look for, I'm hoping you will have some luck in that department.

    If you type in hemorraghic septicemia fish, into google, you will find a lot more information on this condition.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    thanks toosie

    have googled it and it defo sounds like hemorraghic septicemia
    im going to the lfs to see if i can get some antibiotics, hopefully i can do something for her

    i feel pretty bad as i have caused this by cycling my new tank with her in it

    will post my progress

    thanks again
     
  6. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    You're welcome baggy and thanks, I'll be looking forward to your updates. In the mean time, I'd like you to take it easy on yourself. Fish keeping is a huge learning process and it's inevitable we will make mistakes. Sometimes it's the best way to learn. I've learned far more from the mistakes I have made than the things I have done right and I think most people here would say the same thing.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    whats caused this:(

    just did a water check before i do a medication and my waters gone from ( as above ) to ammonia 5, nitrite 100, nitrate 20 IN 48HRS

    done nothing to the water, not even any food went in, its not a small tank so how could it change that much?

    ive done a 50% water change

    please help
     
  8. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

  9. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

  10. E

    Echostatic Well Known Member Member

    Nitrite is 100?

    My ammonia and nitrite fluctuated for some time after the tank showed to be cycled. It took a bit of time to stabilize. Perhaps you're is doing the same thing. I would recommend using a water conditioner like Seachem Prime that neutralizes ammonia and nitrites, to provide a safer environment in the meantime.
     
  11. s

    stashattack Valued Member Member

    +1 but just remember, Prime only neutralizes ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours.
     
  12. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    OK, I've used that product myself for a long time and I've never noticed it affect my reading. Products like Prime and Amquel+ can though so I wanted to make sure this wasn't what was happening.

    The season is changing, and sometimes that can change the contents in our tap water. How would you like to do ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests on it so that we can rule that out as a possibility. We'll at least know it is safe to use for some really big water changes if the levels are all good, and that will be what we will need to do.

    EDIT: Good advice guys, but remember, Prime and Amquel+ are only capable of detoxifying low levels of ammonia and nitrites. Generally readings under 1ppm. Nitrites at 100ppm means we need to take more drastic measures than just the use of one of those two products.
     
  13. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    prime is difficult to get here, have never tested the water straight from the tap but my water readings were fine and then in 48hrs with no change of water or anything the readings just sky rocketed

    nitrite between 80/100 was very dark red
     
  14. jbdub

    jbdub Valued Member Member

    Hope this works out for you, I just lost a bala to this last night :(

    He only had it a few days(that i noticed) and was behaving normally. Then just before I went to bed he was at the bottom of the tank.
     
  15. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    Yes, I realized Prime was difficult to get there. Some members from your area have managed to get it shipped to them online, but that isn't something that is going to help you today.

    I'd still like you to test your tap water just so that we know what the outcome of large water changes will be. I'm going to ask you to do several back to back water changes using your AquaPlus water conditioner to bring the nitrite levels as low as possible. Because of the condition this fish is already in, I'd really like to see if you can get the reading down to .25. That is going to take probably 7 or more 50% back to back water changes. You can test between each change or do a few and then test, and you can take some 1/2 hour or so breaks in between if you need to or if the fish starts showing signs of distress.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    thanks guys, because it is such a large tank would i be better off putting her in my spare 100 litre tank with maybe all fresh tap water and my current hob filter that i use for mainly circulation so it will have some good bacteria in it and try to get that water stable first and medicate her in there while at the same time do some 50% back to back changes in the 125g tank to try to get that stable, was thinking it might be less stressful for her

    also if ive no fish in my big tank do i need to put water conditioner in everytime i do a water change or only when everythings ok and hopefully she can go back in?
     
  17. s

    stashattack Valued Member Member

    I think at this point, moving her would add more stress that is unnecessary (please correct me if I'm wrong!) Another thing about your 100l tank, I'm not sure how big that is, but it sounds a lot smaller than the 125g tank. The fact that it has no fish in it probably also means that it has no bacteria in it as well, because their is not food (ie ammonia and nitrites) for it too feed from. So you would be putting your fish into another uncycled tank. A bigger tank, theoretically should fluctuate less then a smaller tank as well.

    Yes, always add water conditioner if you are trying to get a tank recycled. Chlorine, Chlorimides will destroy any beneficial bacteria that are growing in your filter and tank. Like toosie said, do the water changes back to back unless you see signs of stress, or if you need a break (cuz you can't help your fish if you can't help yourself!) Just watch her closely and make sure nothing has changed since the last water change.
     
  18. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    I'm with stashattack on this one for the reason's he? (I'm never sure, sorry) has pointed out as well as the fact that sometimes even though these are toxins we are dealing with, sometimes removing the fish into perfect water can shock them so the back to back water changes give the fish some time to adapt to the changes that take place.

    I know it's a huge pain on such a large tank. You could detox him in a smaller container by putting him and water from the tank into the container or other smaller tank and then filling it up the rest of the way with clean water, and then doing more water changes on that tank to bring the levels down the rest of the way, but it wouldn't take very long before his waste would create high levels again without cycled media in the filter, although I guess you could move over the media from the 125 for the time being.

    As for the cause of this problem.... Do you use a gravel vac for your water changes? I suspect that under some ornament, driftwood, or even some place in the gravel itself, there is a pocket of decomposing matter. Food, fish waste, etc. While you are doing the back to back water changes, I'd like you to do a thorough gravel vac and see if you can't find this pocket or pockets.

    Also, there are risks no matter what you choose to do. Keeping him in the 125 for the back to backs, means he will be in higher levels of toxins longer. Moving him means you may stress him more or shock him with too drastic of a change. Really there is no one right way to deal with this, and I would like to leave it up to you which of the ways you feel most comfortable doing it.
     
  19. OP
    OP
    baggy007

    baggy007 Well Known Member Member

    i have a sand substraite and vac the waste i can see daily but i dont vac under my driftwood or rocks so i will leave her in there and do 2 50% back 2 back changes with a total vac, test tomorrow and go from there

    is this all i can do for now?

    could it be anerobic poisoning? as i have sand
     
  20. toosie

    toosie Well Known Member Member

    Do you have Malaysian Trumpet Snails?

    If nothing is stirring the sand the sand bed could definitely be causing this. If that is the case then I would move her over as I described, using the water from the tank and then filling the other tank up the rest of the way with fresh water. Don't do it in reverse. Then I'd stir the heck out of that sand and do 100% water changes on it to rectify the problem.

    Then when you put her back in, you'll need to make sure the sand or at least portions of it, is stirred during or right before your weekly water changes.