Question What's The Difference Between Seacham (sp) Prime And Water Conditioner?

Cichlidude

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Just to let everyone know, I'm on my 4th bag of popcorn.
 

AvalancheDave

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And from Monsees 2017:

Monsees nitrate fig 1.png


No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.

Monsees nitrate fig 2.png


No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.

Monsees nitrate fig 3.png



No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.


Monsees nitrate fig 4.png



No significant effects under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.


Monsees nitrate fig 5.png


No significant differences at any level of nitrate.


Monsees nitrate table 1.png


No significant differences at any level of nitrate.
 

AvalancheDave

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And from the often cited Camargo 2005 article:

Camargo nitrate table 3 annotated.png


All values in nitrate-N so they have to be multiplied by 4.43. These numbers are huge. The Kincheloe study was discredited. A follow-up study determined the values to be magnitudes higher than what Kincheloe reported.
 

toosie

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Let us not forget that ammonia and nitrite toxicity is dependent on pH and temperature. I will avoid getting caught up in the Prime debate, in part because I have my own suspicions on its effectiveness and its affect on cycling. However, as much as I have enjoyed this debate...and I have... you guys are now kind of going around and around with this. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree? It's becoming obvious you aren't going to convince each other of anything. But...if the OP doesn't mind their thread being used for this debate...I guess you can let Cichlidude get fat on popcorn. Me...I haven't had the foresight enough to go pop any.
 

AvalancheDave

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What does Tom Barr have to say on the subject?

As you can see, the ranges are extremely high and that warmer water fish tend to have a greater ability to withstand NO3 levels as well. When fish breed and fry ar eproduces, this representst the behavior(positive good) and the most sensntive life stanges. I routinely have this occur in such higher NO3 tanks.

Now some have made claims that my advice concerning EI dosing is bad for fish and they have not supported with test, with primary research, nor applied plant tank experience neither over short term nor over long term test.

Now I ask them to stand before others to show their evidence rather than preceptions to show and prove otherwise.

What I hear from:

1. Banther about less is better(but they rarely say how much less)
2. No supporting primary research(still waiting for one review)
3. Advice and heresay from other web sites
4. Toxicity citations about humans, not fish
5. No toxcity test of their own to deny/confirm(kind of sad, they make claims and then do not test them)
6. Claims that behaviors change(how do we measure this?)

And what does Diana Walstad have to say?

There have been many recommendations to keep nitrates low (below 25 ppm) in our aquariums. I'm not sure why, because the scientific literature and experts repeatedly imply that nitrates aren't very toxic. At the end of this letter, I have listed documented values from the scientific literature.

What concerns me is that hobbyists are testing and worrying about something not very significant in terms of fish health. One of my tanks runs for long periods with 40-100 ppm nitrates. Meanwhile, hobbyists may be ignoring major toxins like nitrite and ammonia or incorrectly attributing disease problems to fish weakened (?) by nitrates.
After I finished compiling this data, I wonder why I even bothered testing for nitrates.
And they wrote this before the Monsees and Davidson 2017 articles!

toosie said:
Let us not forget that ammonia and nitrite toxicity is dependent on pH and temperature. I will avoid getting caught up in the Prime debate, in part because I have my own suspicions on its effectiveness and its affect on cycling. However, as much as I have enjoyed this debate...and I have... you guys are now kind of going around and around with this. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree? It's becoming obvious you aren't going to convince each other of anything. But...if the OP doesn't mind their thread being used for this debate...I guess you can let Cichlidude get fat on popcorn. Me...I haven't had the foresight enough to go pop any.
Well, I'm sure that, like many nitrate truthers, he'll never be convinced. He's entitled to his opinion just like the anti-vaccination and flat earth crowds. He's free to believe whatever he wants but he can't say science backs him up.
 
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Joyceheatherington

Joyceheatherington

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Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
 

toeknee

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A fine job derailing OP's thread. This has been like watching a Republican trying to convince a Democrat they are right and the other side is wrong and vice versa. It just doesn't happen.
 

AvalancheDave

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Well, I can't sit by while people post misinformation in every thread. It's a disservice to the hobby to perpetuate myths whether their origins are marketing or the illusory truth effect.
 

toeknee

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AvalancheDave said:
Well, I can't sit by while people post misinformation in every thread. It's a disservice to the hobby to perpetuate myths whether their origins are marketing or the illusory truth effect.
ha. Fair enough. I'm sure someone will take away some valuable information from that debate.
 

david1978

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Joyceheatherington said:
Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
The simple answer is prime is a water conditioner. Its pretty concentrated. Safe is another that's even more concentrated. The other stuff I have no idea since I have a well so I don't use any.
 

toosie

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AvalancheDave said:
Well, I'm sure that, like many nitrate truthers, he'll never be convinced. He's entitled to his opinion just like the anti-vaccination and flat earth crowds. He's free to believe whatever he wants but he can't say science backs him up.
I think the forum has a way of instilling these beliefs. Many years ago, I myself got caught up in the "Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and nitrates" talk. But a couple of the things that shut my mouth about it was when I discovered that info about Seachem saying they had no proof in regard to the nitrite and nitrate claims, and were going by anecdotal customer info...to me that was their get out of jail free card, without having to prove it did anything. Plus...their statement to use 5X the dose for nitrites. They don't say at what level of nitrites that becomes necessary. Nor how they determined 5X the dose did the trick. Years ago, I tried to dispute the ammonia portion of the claI'm in a thread, and kinda caused a member to decide to test the success of Prime to protect guppies during a cycle, and she dosed Prime instead of doing water changes...and although the guppies didn't die, the cycle seemed to stall, and I suspected this daily dose of Prime that was being given, as part of the cause. What initially planted the idea (that Prime might affect cycling) was something Dr. TI'm (the inventor of TSS) said while he was on the forum, about being able to get a buildup of Prime...I can't remember exactly how that conversation went, but I'm sure I could find the thread if anyone is interested.

But yeah...all this was just to say that, due to popular belief, and due to the fact that it hasn't been reported on the forum often as "Prime has failed me!", these beliefs in Prime have prevailed. I'm all game for good disproving conversations though, but I guess there also hasn't been enough evidence to say that Prime doesn't do as people say it does...even if the logic of other factors, such as the level of toxicity debate, (which is part of your debate) comes into play. So, yeah...I think it's good to keep an open mind, and while Prime may not be as effective as claimed, in most cases it doesn't seem to cause problems...however I do say that last bit through clenched teeth, because I've lost plenty of fish due to ammonia/nitrite levels in my early fishkeeping years, and this idea that it's ok to subject fish to higher levels of these toxins because "Prime will protect the fish" goes against my better judgement. I prefer to keep levels low period. And having said that, I too haven't noticed problems as far as nitrate levels go, unless they get extremely high, and by that I mean higher than our test kits go. But due to my own stupidity (lack of knowlege) years ago, I did have goldfish develop septicemia to what I attributed to these levels of nitrates. Could it have been another toxin? Why not! Anything is possible, and I didn't have means of testing the water or the fish's body for other causes. But nitrates is still what I am most leaning towards to this day.

So...for someone who was going to stay away from the Prime debate...I didn't do too well I guess.

But to Joyceheatherington, to try to better answer your question, in more than what I said in my original post...Standard conditioners claI'm to eliminate chlorine and the chlorine from the chloramine molecule, which are both disinfectants used by water treatment plants. They also claI'm to detoxify heavy metals. Prime claims to do all of that, plus detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. And if the ammonia claims are true, it would be very nice, since ammonia is the other part of the chloramine molecule, and so it could also help low levels of ammonia in the tank from fish waste. Which, does seem to work. So, although I am not a total gung ho Prime advocate, I do think if it can protect fish from low levels of ammonia, it is worth using...and it does seem to do that.
 

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AvalancheDave said:
If <40 ppm is the recommendation but 40 ppm nitrate isn't even close to toxic then that would lead to false reports that Prime "saved" the fish.
I'll give you that on the nitrates. Since we only recommend frequent water changes to lower nitrate levels. And I've never recommended Prime for nitrates. I will concede on the Nitrate aspect of Prime.

I still believe that Prime has some sort of unintended effect in either preventing nitrites from entering into the fish's gills/blood stream, or preventing nitrites from turning hemoglobin into methemoglobin. I witnessed the negative effects (including a few deaths) of nitrites over 5ppm on 2 of my tanks at 2 different times, and both times shortly after overdosing all the fish were back to normal. Repeatibility. Others have reported the same results. Reproducibility.

Edit:
I did some more searching, and found that there is some chemical and biological interaction between nitrite and sulfide.

Then I remembered a few threads about the odor of Prime being like rotten eggs(sulfur), https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/why-does-seachem-prime-smell-so-bad.204104/

Then I remembered that Prime does contain some kind of sulfur compound.

"Prime does not contain any formaldehyde. It is a proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts."

Found a research study about hemoglobin, nitrite, and hydrosulfite (Sodium dithionite). Page 12 on pdf reader or page 198 printed on the actual page. Action on Blood "When nitrite is added first and methemoglobin is formed, there is primarily reduction to hemoglobin and then the change to NO hemoglobin as before."

I will do more searching throughout the week, I have to go to bed and get up at 4am for work.
 

Skavatar

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AvalancheDave said:
Well, I'm sure that, like many nitrate truthers, he'll never be convinced. He's entitled to his opinion just like the anti-vaccination and flat earth crowds. He's free to believe whatever he wants but he can't say science backs him up.
haha,
I do believe in vaccines, I'm vaccinated, and so is my 6 yr old son. I do believe the Earth is spherical.

Anyways, I just created an account on Seachem's forum and submitted my theory that the active ingredient hydrosulfite (Sodium dithionite) reverses the effect of nitrite on hemoglobin, reducing it from methemoglobin back to nitrite and hemoglobin. We'll see if they'll follow up and do some research on their own and finally get some scientific confirmation on Prime's efficacy on nitrite poisoning.

Joyceheatherington said:
Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
Please refer to reply #5.
Most conditioners only remove chlorine and chloramine.
Prime, Kordon AmQuel+, and HikarI Ultimate claI'm to also detox nitrite and nitrates.
Prime has a number of anecdotal reports from fish keepers that it does.
This debate showed that since nitrate levels are no where near toxic levels in most home aquariums that Prime et al aren't actually "protecting" fish from nitrates in the home aquarium.
 

bizaliz3

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Joyceheatherington said:
Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
You poor thing!!!!! If I was a newbie and asked such a simple question and it turned into a thread like this, I would lose my mind trying to understand it all! SHEESH GUYS!!

Lets just keep it as simple and simple can be. Prime is a water conditioner. LOL!

Yes there are added benefits to prime over other brands. (after skimming through your thread apparently not everyone believes that though) but when it comes down to it, prime is a water conditioner. Period.

If you choose to use seachem prime as your water conditioner, due to its added benefits, you do not need to use ANOTHER type of water conditioner. I am going to guess that is why you asked the question to begin with. haha But maybe not.
 

ReneRivera

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AvalancheDave said:
That's not how science works. Religion, maybe. A few hundred years ago the vast majority of people would swear the Earth was flat.

I doubt there are thousands of fish keepers reporting this. On all the aquarium forums out there I've only seen you make that claim.

Remember the thread from the Seachem support forums where someone used Prime for nitrite and it failed. I used it for ammonia and it also failed.

Most aquarists have no idea what levels of nitrite and nitrate are toxic. They think any amount of nitrite is toxic while studies have found it can be anywhere from 1-100 ppm for tropical fish. And they think nitrate is toxic above 40 ppm when the actual value is more than a hundred times that amount. It's very likely false reports were made based on a lack of knowledge of nitrite and nitrate toxicity.

Is it possible a product is simply so great that it borders on magic? Every few years they discover miraculous new properties. How long before Seachem starts claiming Prime will resurrect the dead?

Why hasn't Seachem done so and released the results?

Why don't you devise a scientific test that doesn't involve anecdotes? I'm willing to split the cost of the experiment with you.
Ithink that a a test that measures free ammonia and not total ammonia should be marketed. Free ammonia is the unionized (toxic) form. You could have high total ammonia and low free ammonia. Prime works by ionizing ammonia into ammonium which isn't toxic. This however , is temporary. Ammonium will unbind and return to ammonia within 48 hours. That's why prime is a lifesaver.it allow the bio filter a brief respite to catch up with the increased demand. Also it's important to understand the relation / interaction between PH an ammonia levels. Lower Ph will render ammonia less toxic. I use test kits along with seachem's ammonia alert badge, which monitors free ammonia. The badge could read safe and the test could show high levels ( but that's a reading of TOTAL ammonia).
 

Kjeldsen

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How did I miss this thread? All I'm going to say is Seachem probably spends more on Marketing than R&D.
 

Fish0n

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Joyceheatherington said:
Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
If you are using tap water you can check the city's website and see what they claI'm the water levels *should* be from your tap. I have heard they aren't always what they claI'm in terms of nitrates and such but it does inform you of what they are treating the water with so you know what conditioner to use to detoxify. For example chlorine or chloramine are commonly used to kill bacteria and micro organisms.
So in conclusion knowing what water conditioner is better to use depends on how your city treats their water!

*Disclaimer* I have been on well water for the past 5 years the products could have changed since I had an experience with this, but the more you know about your source water the better usually.
 

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