What's The Difference Between Seacham (sp) Prime And Water Conditioner? Question | Page 2

Discussion in 'Cleaning and Maintenance' started by Joyceheatherington, May 16, 2019.

  1. Cichlidude

    CichlidudeWell Known MemberMember

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    Just to let everyone know, I'm on my 4th bag of popcorn.
     
  2. AvalancheDave

    AvalancheDaveWell Known MemberMember

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    And from Monsees 2017:

    Monsees nitrate fig 1.

    No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.

    Monsees nitrate fig 2.

    No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.

    Monsees nitrate fig 3.


    No significant differences under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.


    Monsees nitrate fig 4.


    No significant effects under 4,430 mg/L nitrate.


    Monsees nitrate fig 5.

    No significant differences at any level of nitrate.


    Monsees nitrate table 1.

    No significant differences at any level of nitrate.
     
  3. AvalancheDave

    AvalancheDaveWell Known MemberMember

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    And from the often cited Camargo 2005 article:

    Camargo nitrate table 3 annotated.

    All values in nitrate-N so they have to be multiplied by 4.43. These numbers are huge. The Kincheloe study was discredited. A follow-up study determined the values to be magnitudes higher than what Kincheloe reported.
     
  4. toosie

    toosieFishlore VIPMember

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    Let us not forget that ammonia and nitrite toxicity is dependent on pH and temperature. I will avoid getting caught up in the Prime debate, in part because I have my own suspicions on its effectiveness and its affect on cycling. However, as much as I have enjoyed this debate...and I have... you guys are now kind of going around and around with this. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree? It's becoming obvious you aren't going to convince each other of anything. But...if the OP doesn't mind their thread being used for this debate...I guess you can let @Cichlidude get fat on popcorn. Me...I haven't had the foresight enough to go pop any.
     
  5. AvalancheDave

    AvalancheDaveWell Known MemberMember

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    What does Tom Barr have to say on the subject?


    And what does Diana Walstad have to say?

    And they wrote this before the Monsees and Davidson 2017 articles!

    Well, I'm sure that, like many nitrate truthers, he'll never be convinced. He's entitled to his opinion just like the anti-vaccination and flat earth crowds. He's free to believe whatever he wants but he can't say science backs him up.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Joyceheatherington

    JoyceheatheringtonValued MemberMember

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    Uhhh Wow this is all above my knowledge and over my head as a beginner. Not even sure if it answered my question with so much info.
     
  7. toeknee

    toekneeWell Known MemberMember

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    A fine job derailing OP's thread. This has been like watching a Republican trying to convince a Democrat they are right and the other side is wrong and vice versa. It just doesn't happen.
     
  8. AvalancheDave

    AvalancheDaveWell Known MemberMember

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    Well, I can't sit by while people post misinformation in every thread. It's a disservice to the hobby to perpetuate myths whether their origins are marketing or the illusory truth effect.
     
  9. toeknee

    toekneeWell Known MemberMember

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    ha. Fair enough. I'm sure someone will take away some valuable information from that debate.
     
  10. david1978

    david1978Fishlore LegendMember

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    The simple answer is prime is a water conditioner. Its pretty concentrated. Safe is another that's even more concentrated. The other stuff I have no idea since I have a well so I don't use any.
     
  11. toosie

    toosieFishlore VIPMember

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    I think the forum has a way of instilling these beliefs. Many years ago, I myself got caught up in the "Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and nitrates" talk. But a couple of the things that shut my mouth about it was when I discovered that info about Seachem saying they had no proof in regard to the nitrite and nitrate claims, and were going by anecdotal customer info...to me that was their get out of jail free card, without having to prove it did anything. Plus...their statement to use 5X the dose for nitrites. They don't say at what level of nitrites that becomes necessary. Nor how they determined 5X the dose did the trick. Years ago, I tried to dispute the ammonia portion of the claim in a thread, and kinda caused a member to decide to test the success of Prime to protect guppies during a cycle, and she dosed Prime instead of doing water changes...and although the guppies didn't die, the cycle seemed to stall, and I suspected this daily dose of Prime that was being given, as part of the cause. What initially planted the idea (that Prime might affect cycling) was something Dr. Tim (the inventor of TSS) said while he was on the forum, about being able to get a buildup of Prime...I can't remember exactly how that conversation went, but I'm sure I could find the thread if anyone is interested.

    But yeah...all this was just to say that, due to popular belief, and due to the fact that it hasn't been reported on the forum often as "Prime has failed me!", these beliefs in Prime have prevailed. I'm all game for good disproving conversations though, but I guess there also hasn't been enough evidence to say that Prime doesn't do as people say it does...even if the logic of other factors, such as the level of toxicity debate, (which is part of your debate) comes into play. So, yeah...I think it's good to keep an open mind, and while Prime may not be as effective as claimed, in most cases it doesn't seem to cause problems...however I do say that last bit through clenched teeth, because I've lost plenty of fish due to ammonia/nitrite levels in my early fishkeeping years, and this idea that it's ok to subject fish to higher levels of these toxins because "Prime will protect the fish" goes against my better judgement. I prefer to keep levels low period. And having said that, I too haven't noticed problems as far as nitrate levels go, unless they get extremely high, and by that I mean higher than our test kits go. But due to my own stupidity (lack of knowlege) years ago, I did have goldfish develop septicemia to what I attributed to these levels of nitrates. Could it have been another toxin? Why not! Anything is possible, and I didn't have means of testing the water or the fish's body for other causes. But nitrates is still what I am most leaning towards to this day.

    So...for someone who was going to stay away from the Prime debate...I didn't do too well I guess.

    But to @Joyceheatherington, to try to better answer your question, in more than what I said in my original post...Standard conditioners claim to eliminate chlorine and the chlorine from the chloramine molecule, which are both disinfectants used by water treatment plants. They also claim to detoxify heavy metals. Prime claims to do all of that, plus detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. And if the ammonia claims are true, it would be very nice, since ammonia is the other part of the chloramine molecule, and so it could also help low levels of ammonia in the tank from fish waste. Which, does seem to work. So, although I am not a total gung ho Prime advocate, I do think if it can protect fish from low levels of ammonia, it is worth using...and it does seem to do that.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  12. Skavatar

    SkavatarWell Known MemberMember

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    I'll give you that on the nitrates. Since we only recommend frequent water changes to lower nitrate levels. And I've never recommended Prime for nitrates. I will concede on the Nitrate aspect of Prime.

    I still believe that Prime has some sort of unintended effect in either preventing nitrites from entering into the fish's gills/blood stream, or preventing nitrites from turning hemoglobin into methemoglobin. I witnessed the negative effects (including a few deaths) of nitrites over 5ppm on 2 of my tanks at 2 different times, and both times shortly after overdosing all the fish were back to normal. Repeatibility. Others have reported the same results. Reproducibility.

    Edit:
    I did some more searching, and found that there is some chemical and biological interaction between nitrite and sulfide. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1089860314005163

    Then i remembered a few threads about the odor of Prime being like rotten eggs(sulfur), https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/why-does-seachem-prime-smell-so-bad.204104/

    Then I remembered that Prime does contain some kind of sulfur compound. https://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/beginner-freshwater-aquarium/how-does-prime-work-120683/page2/

    "Prime does not contain any formaldehyde. It is a proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts." https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1708-prime

    Found a research study about hemoglobin, nitrite, and hydrosulfite (Sodium dithionite). Page 12 on pdf reader or page 198 printed on the actual page. Action on Blood "When nitrite is added first and methemoglobin is formed, there is primarily reduction to hemoglobin and then the change to NO hemoglobin as before."

    i will do more searching throughout the week, i have to go to bed and get up at 4am for work.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  13. Geoff

    GeoffWell Known MemberMember

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  14. Skavatar

    SkavatarWell Known MemberMember

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    haha,
    I do believe in vaccines, I'm vaccinated, and so is my 6 yr old son. I do believe the Earth is spherical.

    Anyways, I just created an account on Seachem's forum and submitted my theory that the active ingredient hydrosulfite (Sodium dithionite) reverses the effect of nitrite on hemoglobin, reducing it from methemoglobin back to nitrite and hemoglobin. We'll see if they'll follow up and do some research on their own and finally get some scientific confirmation on Prime's efficacy on nitrite poisoning.

    Please refer to reply #5.
    Most conditioners only remove chlorine and chloramine.
    Prime, Kordon AmQuel+, and Hikari Ultimate claim to also detox nitrite and nitrates.
    Prime has a number of anecdotal reports from fish keepers that it does.
    This debate showed that since nitrate levels are no where near toxic levels in most home aquariums that Prime et al aren't actually "protecting" fish from nitrates in the home aquarium.
     
  15. bizaliz3

    bizaliz3Fishlore LegendMember

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    You poor thing!!!!! If I was a newbie and asked such a simple question and it turned into a thread like this, I would lose my mind trying to understand it all! SHEESH GUYS!!

    Lets just keep it as simple and simple can be. Prime is a water conditioner. LOL!

    Yes there are added benefits to prime over other brands. (after skimming through your thread apparently not everyone believes that though) but when it comes down to it, prime is a water conditioner. Period.

    If you choose to use seachem prime as your water conditioner, due to its added benefits, you do not need to use ANOTHER type of water conditioner. I am going to guess that is why you asked the question to begin with. haha But maybe not.
     
  16. ReneRivera

    ReneRiveraNew MemberMember

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    Ithink that a a test that measures free ammonia and not total ammonia should be marketed. Free ammonia is the unionized (toxic) form. You could have high total ammonia and low free ammonia. Prime works by ionizing ammonia into ammonium which isn't toxic. This however , is temporary. Ammonium will unbind and return to ammonia within 48 hours. That's why prime is a lifesaver.it allow the bio filter a brief respite to catch up with the increased demand. Also it's important to understand the relation / interaction between PH an ammonia levels. Lower Ph will render ammonia less toxic. i use test kits along with seachem's ammonia alert badge, which monitors free ammonia. The badge could read safe and the test could show high levels ( but that's a reading of TOTAL ammonia).
     
  17. Kjeldsen

    KjeldsenValued MemberMember

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    How did I miss this thread? All I'm going to say is Seachem probably spends more on Marketing than R&D.
     
  18. Fish0n

    Fish0nValued MemberMember

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    If you are using tap water you can check the city's website and see what they claim the water levels *should* be from your tap. I have heard they aren't always what they claim in terms of nitrates and such but it does inform you of what they are treating the water with so you know what conditioner to use to detoxify. For example chlorine or chloramine are commonly used to kill bacteria and micro organisms.
    So in conclusion knowing what water conditioner is better to use depends on how your city treats their water!

    *Disclaimer* I have been on well water for the past 5 years the products could have changed since I had an experience with this, but the more you know about your source water the better usually.
     
  19. Skavatar

    SkavatarWell Known MemberMember

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  20. richie.p

    richie.pFishlore VIPMember

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    Well guys/gals after reading all that I'm in melt down mode, I need a beer
     
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