What’s happening to my guppies and their fry?

Tank (there are two):
What is the water volume of the tank? 10g
How long has the tank been running? A few years
Does it have a filter? Yes, each has an AquaClear 20 with a prefilter
Does it have a heater? Yes, both
What is the water temperature? 78-80 F
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Tank 1: three adult male guppies* / Tank 2: five 5 1/2-month-old guppies* (1 male, 4 female)
*the adults were sold as Endlers’ livebearers, but they look like standard guppies. The male offspring has Endler-like markings, so my guess is that they’re all guppy/endler hybrids.

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Weekly
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water? API tap water conditioner
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? I gravel vacuum

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? API freshwater master
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Tank 1 (adults):
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5-10 ppm
pH: 7.5
Tank 2 (offspring):
Ammonia: 0-0.25 ppm (probably because I just found a dead fish)
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm
pH: 7.5

It’s the day before water change day, if that makes a difference. This is just about the highest nitrates these tanks see.
Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Tank 1–once, sometimes twice a day. Tank 2–a few times a day.
How much do you feed your fish? A very small pinch. It’s all gone quickly.
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Omega One, Hikari, and Aqueon
Do you feed frozen? No
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? I got the adults in early June
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? Things have been wrong for months
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Obvious stress, clamped fins, staying near the back or bottom areas of the tank/hiding a lot, lack of appetite, weight loss, death
Have you started any treatment for the illness? I’ve tried a couple things—praziquantel-based parasite meds for both adults and fry because of the weight loss, with no result; I also tried antibacterial meds on the adults when the one that had previously looked healthiest suddenly got fin-rot (I used nitrofurazone and KanaPlex, because by that point I was panicking). I haven’t lost any adults since then, and they’re all eating, but they still look stressed and are hiding a lot today. One is really thin.
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? The worst that I noticed was a couple ripped fins, which are still present
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? The affected fish started hiding, stopped eating, lost weight, and died.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
I got these fish in June, eleven adults all together, and put them in QT Tank 1. They all looked fine then, aside from the couple with ripped fins that I mentioned. They had fry, as livebearers do. The first batch was born in late July. I didn’t have the pregnant female separated, but I did catch and separated the fry I found. They stopped after two batches, with a total of about 12 fry. IIRC, I think a couple adults had died at this point. I moved the fry to Tank 2, another QT tank.
The fry were fine for a while. The adults weren’t. The mother at some point got pop-eye, but an antibacterial med fixed that. Aside from that, for the following months, I’d notice one of the adults hanging back during feeding, clamping fins, and hiding a lot, and then it’d die. Then nothing would happen for a bit, and I’d think maybe whatever was happening had cleared up, and then another fish would die. I tried PraziPro, thinking that the weight loss meant parasites, but clearly that did nothing, because I still went from 11 adults to 3. One of the surviving adults, who’d previously looked like the healthiest of the lot, suddenly lost a small chunk of his fin and had red along the ripped edge. I used nitrofurazone and KanaPlex, as stated, because by this point I was frustrated and scared, and his fin isn’t like that anymore. It hasn’t healed at all, and it looks like he might’ve ripped another part of his fin, but there’s no more red edging.
After a few months of separation, the fry eventually started showing the exact same symptoms as the adults, hence going from 12 to 5 of them. I found one dead this afternoon just before writing this, hence the trace ammonia in their tank.
Here’s two surviving adults (the blue one up top is the one that had fin rot, and the bottom one is the thin one):



And their offspring:



There are more photos in the attachments.
I’ve seen a lot of fish diseases, having worked in a couple pet stores with bad animal suppliers, but this is not something I’ve ever seen before, and I am out of ideas. Any ideas and/or suggestions would be hugely appreciated.

 

I am not good with diseases, but they are obviously stressed at the least. How much time do you usually have the lights on daily? I have found with some of my fish less time or finding ways to dim the light can really help.

 

I am not good with diseases, but they are obviously stressed at the least. How much time do you usually have the lights on daily? I have found with some of my fish less time or finding ways to dim the light can really help.

Their timer is set for roughly 12 hours.
The lights on both tanks are small LEDs that came with the aquarium kits. They don’t seem all that bright, compared to the LEDs on my other tanks, but I can adjust the timer.

 

Small update: the skinny adult is eating well, so that’s promising, at least. He took brine shrimp earlier, and just now ate some crumbled flakes. One of the offspring isn’t eating, though. She swims over to the food with the others but doesn’t touch it.
I’m considering combining the adults and the babies into Tank 2 with a divider between the males and the females just in case. They can’t really infect each other if they’re all having the same problems, and I need Tank 1 for something else.

 

Another small update: the skinny adult has continued eating.
The visibly-thinner juvenile who wasn’t eating looked worse yesterday, but today, when I gave them brine shrimp again, she actually made a go at it, which is more than she’s done in days.
I don’t normally give them frozen/freeze-dried, because their mouths are so small, but if it gets them to eat and put weight on….

 

Your guppies have wasting disease. In my opinion, and i guess i could be wrong, id just scrap the fish and the tank and start over. This is why you never buy, mess with, a guppy with a bent spine. Its a trap, people act like its "cute' because its from inbreeding, only to find out the fish actually dosent eat, dies, then others that were perfectly fine end up with bent spines too and stop eating, start dying and getting wierd shaped deformities to their spine.
In my opinion, your fish have Fish TB, and your best bet is to scrap it, bleach it, and start over. Never buy from that same source.......
There are lots of quality guppies to be found online, from knowledgeable breeders. Healthy beautiful guppies. You are not enjoying this hobby nursing sickly fish with bent spines and slowly watching them die. This is why good breeders cull deformed guppies. Because it can and often is a disease that can spread not just a case of scolosis.

 

Another small update: the skinny adult has continued eating.
The visibly-thinner juvenile who wasn’t eating looked worse yesterday, but today, when I gave them brine shrimp again, she actually made a go at it, which is more than she’s done in days.
I don’t normally give them frozen/freeze-dried, because their mouths are so small, but if it gets them to eat and put weight on….

May I ask how your guppies are doing now?

I'm late to this thread but do take surrenders & treat them when necessary. The length of the troubles in your tanks is concerning & I'm sorry for your losses.

I'm in Canada so don't have access to the antibiotics you've used except via vet prescription. Instead, my aquatic medicine chest is basically epsom & aquarium salts, methylene blue, the controversial malachite green, super pristine water & high nutrient frozen foods. Hope you really meant you're looking for any suggestions because sometimes those with antibiotic access prefer them as go-to treatment.

I was glad to hear the guppies are taking frozen brine shrimp because that's what I'd advise, along with frozen daphnia if you can get it. Too, while the nitrates are not terrible at 20, with illness I'd do more water changes to keep them in that 5 range if possible - especially going into a divided tank. The 78-80F temp should help too.

My 1st med step for these guys would be aquarium salt, either in a tank free of snails & plants or in a hospital tank - 1.5 tsp per gallon - with water changes & redosing daily for a week.

The next step would be either methylene blue or malachite green, depending on the severity of the fin rot & infection. Had it been going on for months, I'd use malachite green, probably via Kordan's Ich med rather than straight. It's controversial because in high doses it has been found to be toxic to commercial fish & is often banned for use in fish intended for human consumption because of teratogenicity. I have not found its use damaging in short term use for severe or persistent fin rot in aquarium fish. To the contrary, as the med of last resort, I have found it surprisingly effective. If you use it, follow the dosage & water change directions on the bottle closely & be aware that it will stain, including silicone in glass tanks.

In your photos, there's one fish (I think it's one) with what looks like a deformed spine. Is this the case? If it's this single guppy or fry, I would be concerned about breeding & consider humane euthanasia.

Again, I'm sorry for your ongoing losses, hope something here helps & your guppies return to health.

 

Thank you both for your responses!

Your guppies have wasting disease. In my opinion, and i guess i could be wrong, id just scrap the fish and the tank and start over. This is why you never buy, mess with, a guppy with a bent spine. Its a trap, people act like its "cute' because its from inbreeding, only to find out the fish actually dosent eat, dies, then others that were perfectly fine end up with bent spines too and stop eating, start dying and getting wierd shaped deformities to their spine.
In my opinion, your fish have Fish TB, and your best bet is to scrap it, bleach it, and start over. Never buy from that same source.......
There are lots of quality guppies to be found online, from knowledgeable breeders. Healthy beautiful guppies. You are not enjoying this hobby nursing sickly fish with bent spines and slowly watching them die. This is why good breeders cull deformed guppies. Because it can and often is a disease that can spread not just a case of scolosis.

I was reading an article on Fish TB a month or so ago, and its mention of random persistent secondary infections (popeye, fin rot), wasting/not eating, and not reproducing instantly brought these fish to mind.
The adults didn’t have spinal deformities that I noticed, but one of the offspring did for sure. At this point I’m not positive if he’s one of the survivors or not, there have just been so many I lost track.
That’s part of why I haven’t just culled, disinfected, and started over already; the thought has occurred to me. There just haven’t been any noticeable spinal issues except with the one fry, and there haven’t been any lesions at all.
I definitely don’t plan on getting any more fish from there, lol. It’s a pity, though. They had so many species, and their tanks all had separate filters (which is already miles better than most other fish places in the area) so at first I’d hoped they could be a new go-to fish source. At this point I intend to get all future fish online, since apparently every store in the area that I’ve been to gets fish from the same cheap supplier that I know is terrible from personal experience.
I’ve heard good things about Wet Spot, AquaHuna, and Imperial Tropicals, though I’ll probably look for somewhere endler-specific in this case so I can actually get endlers’ livebearers like I was looking for instead of…this.

May I ask how your guppies are doing now?

I'm late to this thread but do take surrenders & treat them when necessary. The length of the troubles in your tanks is concerning & I'm sorry for your losses.

I'm in Canada so don't have access to the antibiotics you've used except via vet prescription. Instead, my aquatic medicine chest is basically epsom & aquarium salts, methylene blue, the controversial malachite green, super pristine water & high nutrient frozen foods. Hope you really meant you're looking for any suggestions because sometimes those with antibiotic access prefer them as go-to treatment.

I was glad to hear the guppies are taking frozen brine shrimp because that's what I'd advise, along with frozen daphnia if you can get it. Too, while the nitrates are not terrible at 20, with illness I'd do more water changes to keep them in that 5 range if possible - especially going into a divided tank. The 78-80F temp should help too.

My 1st med step for these guys would be aquarium salt, either in a tank free of snails & plants or in a hospital tank - 1.5 tsp per gallon - with water changes & redosing daily for a week.

The next step would be either methylene blue or malachite green, depending on the severity of the fin rot & infection. Had it been going on for months, I'd use malachite green, probably via Kordan's Ich med rather than straight. It's controversial because in high doses it has been found to be toxic to commercial fish & is often banned for use in fish intended for human consumption because of teratogenicity. I have not found its use damaging in short term use for severe or persistent fin rot in aquarium fish. To the contrary, as the med of last resort, I have found it surprisingly effective. If you use it, follow the dosage & water change directions on the bottle closely & be aware that it will stain, including silicone in glass tanks.

In your photos, there's one fish (I think it's one) with what looks like a deformed spine. Is this the case? If it's this single guppy or fry, I would be concerned about breeding & consider humane euthanasia.

Again, I'm sorry for your ongoing losses, hope something here helps & your guppies return to health.

No more losses yet. The skinny adult is continuing to eat, and he looks a bit better.
One of the fry’s tail fins is pointed upwards a little. I know that at one point there was a fry who had a spinal problem. It might have grown into this one, or it might’ve been one of the ones who died. IDK anymore. The skinnier adult almost looked like he had a spinal problem in the photo, but now that he’s putting a little weight on it doesn’t look like that.
I put some more photos in the attachments. The fry with the possible deformity is the one with the highlighter-orange markings who would NOT sit still in the third and fourth photos. The skinny adult is the one in the second photo.
The skinny fry is definitely interested in the shrimp. She repeatedly bites at it, and it looks like she must be getting something down, even if she can’t eat a whole shrimp.
Hope spots like that are probably the only reason I haven’t just started over with these fish.
OTOH, one other fry is also losing interest in food. I didn’t see if she ate any shrimp or not, since I was focused on the one who’s had the problem for longer.
They’re already in hospital tanks w/ no live plants/inverts. They never even got out of quarantine.
I have methylene blue and aquarium salt on-hand.
Current plan: move all fish into Tank 2 with divider, disinfect Tank 1 so I can actually do something enjoyable with it, and start aquarium salt treatment in Tank 2. No one’s fins look actually infected right now, to me anyway. More (hopefully clearer) photos in attachments.
If there continue to be deaths, I’ll probably just cull, disinfect, and move on.
Thanks again to both of you!

 

Thank you both for your responses!

I was reading an article on Fish TB a month or so ago, and its mention of random persistent secondary infections (popeye, fin rot), wasting/not eating, and not reproducing instantly brought these fish to mind.
The adults didn’t have spinal deformities that I noticed, but one of the offspring did for sure. At this point I’m not positive if he’s one of the survivors or not, there have just been so many I lost track.
That’s part of why I haven’t just culled, disinfected, and started over already; the thought has occurred to me. There just haven’t been any noticeable spinal issues except with the one fry, and there haven’t been any lesions at all.
I definitely don’t plan on getting any more fish from there, lol. It’s a pity, though. They had so many species, and their tanks all had separate filters (which is already miles better than most other fish places in the area) so at first I’d hoped they could be a new go-to fish source. At this point I intend to get all future fish online, since apparently every store in the area that I’ve been to gets fish from the same cheap supplier that I know is terrible from personal experience.
I’ve heard good things about Wet Spot, AquaHuna, and Imperial Tropicals, though I’ll probably look for somewhere endler-specific in this case so I can actually get endlers’ livebearers like I was looking for instead of…this.

No more losses yet. The skinny adult is continuing to eat, and he looks a bit better.
One of the fry’s tail fins is pointed upwards a little. I know that at one point there was a fry who had a spinal problem. It might have grown into this one, or it might’ve been one of the ones who died. IDK anymore. The skinnier adult almost looked like he had a spinal problem in the photo, but now that he’s putting a little weight on it doesn’t look like that.
I put some more photos in the attachments. The fry with the possible deformity is the one with the highlighter-orange markings who would NOT sit still in the third and fourth photos. The skinny adult is the one in the second photo.
The skinny fry is definitely interested in the shrimp. She repeatedly bites at it, and it looks like she must be getting something down, even if she can’t eat a whole shrimp.
Hope spots like that are probably the only reason I haven’t just started over with these fish.
OTOH, one other fry is also losing interest in food. I didn’t see if she ate any shrimp or not, since I was focused on the one who’s had the problem for longer.
They’re already in hospital tanks w/ no live plants/inverts. They never even got out of quarantine.
I have methylene blue and aquarium salt on-hand.
Current plan: move all fish into Tank 2 with divider, disinfect Tank 1 so I can actually do something enjoyable with it, and start aquarium salt treatment in Tank 2. No one’s fins look actually infected right now, to me anyway. More (hopefully clearer) photos in attachments.
If there continue to be deaths, I’ll probably just cull, disinfect, and move on.
Thanks again to both of you!

Sounds like a good plan & I hope there are no further deaths. Salt can stop bacterial & fungal infection in its tracks pretty effectively & I hope it does the trick for you.

For what it's worth, I don't see evidence of TB in your pics or descriptions either - just a single spinal deformity. It sounds like you know what you're doing on the breeding, culling & care front already & didn't need the cull observation from me.

Nice to meet you, sorry it was under these circumstances. Best of luck with the guppies & in further aquaria adventures.

 

Sounds like a good plan & I hope there are no further deaths. Salt can stop bacterial & fungal infection in its tracks pretty effectively & I hope it does the trick for you.

For what it's worth, I don't see evidence of TB in your pics or descriptions either - just a single spinal deformity. It sounds like you know what you're doing on the breeding, culling & care front already & didn't need the cull observation from me.

Nice to meet you, sorry it was under these circumstances. Best of luck with the guppies & in further aquaria adventures.

Nice to meet you too!
Just to be clear, do you think the fry with the bright markings does actually have a spinal deformity? His back itself looks pretty straight, but the top of his tail fin comes up at such a weird angle that it looks a little off. (The one that I know had issues had a noticeable bend in its back just before the tail.) He just won’t sit still and let me look at him.

 

Thats good to hear Liv. Ive also heard of soft water that dosent have enough calcium and or karbonate Hardness causing this kind of thing. I dont know if that is the truth or just hearsay.
When i kept some guppies out in a tub this summer in rainwater, a few of them did actually look like this. I think regardless its a good reason to cull. A skinny small guppy is really just a liability. Of course to each their own but after having disease in my entire fish room a few times from getting fish from questionable sources, i ovbiously error on the side of caution. I cull not only sick or bent spines, but anything that is not up to par, or is too old to swim anymore. I just cant have disease anymore. Ruined alot of my time in this hobby messing with diseased guppies. Get rid of em.
I actually see 2 guppies with spinal problems. Look at the head shape as well as the back. The head can sometimes have a very wierd shape to it, which suggests some type of tubercerlosis. Not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist or know it all or anything, but in my experience it just dosent ever go away and since there is no cure whenever i see a guppy with a wierd head shape or bent spine, and its sickly, torn fins, not eating, ect. And you have fish deaths.....on no. I would fear its TB. I would be very careful if i were you. Get the nukes ready.
Just wanted to add that another disease that can cause spinal bending/deformites is neon tetra disease. Its worth researching this as well. There is a product called Naladin that claims to treat wasting disease and NTD. I have used it and it did seem to work, guppies regained their color, starting eating, spines even straightened out on some of the marginally sick ones. But again, you should take this seriously and not write it off as "no big deal" its usually not from inbreeding, but from disease.

 

Nice to meet you too!
Just to be clear, do you think the fry with the bright markings does actually have a spinal deformity? His back itself looks pretty straight, but the top of his tail fin comes up at such a weird angle that it looks a little off. (The one that I know had issues had a noticeable bend in its back just before the tail.) He just won’t sit still and let me look at him.

I was actually wondering from the photos whether it was a spinal deformity or just something that couldn't be well-captured in a pic. Didn't exactly look like a typical spinal deformity to me either but I wanted to mention it as an earlier respondant had focussed on it so adamantly. I still wouldn't breed him just because we don't know if the tail angle is from early injury or genetics. You seem to have that in hand tho!

 

A final update:
One of the adults went downhill and passed in the span of 24 hours before I even got the divider. Another adult died within a week or two of that.
The two fry who weren’t eating before look slightly better now…but the one male is now skinnier and acting weird, and the biggest, healthiest-looking female (who, unlike the rest of them, looks full-grown) appears to have lost a pregnancy just like all the adult females did before they started dying off.
I guess there’s only one thing left to do now.
Many thanks again to everyone who’s responded.

 

A final update:
One of the adults went downhill and passed in the span of 24 hours before I even got the divider. Another adult died within a week or two of that.
The two fry who weren’t eating before look slightly better now…but the one male is now skinnier and acting weird, and the biggest, healthiest-looking female (who, unlike the rest of them, looks full-grown) appears to have lost a pregnancy just like all the adult females did before they started dying off.
I guess there’s only one thing left to do now.
Many thanks again to everyone who’s responded.

I'm so very sorry for your losses.

 

Bleach the tank and equipment and start over. They don't live long anyways no reason to feel sad. In nature they are just food for other fish lol