What Would You Do Part 2

Bruxes and Bubbles

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I have received permission from my parents that I can buy fish off websites. Obviously this opens my possibilities of fish and invertebrates that I can own by a whole lot.

I have been doing a ton of research on different fish and invertebrate types, their breeding habits, their range of care, etc. (My list was huge!) Now I just have to decide which to choose to breed. I'm not breeding to make money, but I would like to be able to easily get rid of excess fish.

Whether you actually have these fish and want to suggest anything, or if you just like a certain one but have never owned them - feel free to comment your opinion either way.

I have quite a while before this tank will be up and running, so I have time to decide.


Water parameters and tank size(s)-

20 high tank (main), 20 gallon bin ( if necessary), 10 gallon bin (3 ft. long), 5 gallon tank.
8.2 through 8.4 water PH. My water is hard.
Temperature cannot be below 72 degrees Fahrenheit (the house is always 72 degrees F.), but I can make the tank as warm as necessary.
Substrate will be play sand for the 20 high.


Fish I was considering -

Livebearers:

- Guppies (Bluegrass guppy)
- Tiger Limia
- Endlers
- Least Killifish

Egg layers:

- GardnerI Killifish


Invertebrates:

- Cherry Shrimp
- Dwarf Crayfish (CPO)


As always, thanks for the comments/help! Feel free to suggest other fish options if you have any - I don't mind and maybe I'll see something I like.
 

PokeTileCraft101

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If you are going to get both the crayfish and shrimp only get one because if/when the crayfish gets hungry without food (sometimes for no reason) would go after the shrimp and eat them.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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PokeTileCraft101 said:
If you are going to get both the crayfish and shrimp only get one because if/when the crayfish gets hungry without food (sometimes for no reason) would go after the shrimp and eat them.
Yes, if I did the CPOs they would be alone in the tank. Thanks for the reply!
 

TexasDomer

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In a 20 gal high, you could have some of each

15x CPDs
5x Male endlers (I'd go with males unless you have a store that will take the fry from you, as even your spare bins and tanks will be overrun soon!)
10x Cherry shrimp (any color, but only one color)
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
In a 20 gal high, you could have some of each

15x CPDs
5x Male endlers (I'd go with males unless you have a store that will take the fry from you, as even your spare bins and tanks will be overrun soon!)
10x Cherry shrimp (any color, but only one color)
I'd like to stick to one fish and possibly shrimp with them if possible to avoid being overrun. How many endlers do you think could do well in a 20 high alone or with shrimp? Thanks for confirming that endlers and shrimp will work together! I'll definitely take that into consideration!
 

TexasDomer

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You wouldn't be overrun with the stocking suggestion I made, as the CPDs likely won't successfully breed. You're more likely to be overrun with endlers if you get females.

If you just did endlers with shrimp, you could do 10-12 or so males.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
You wouldn't be overrun with the stocking suggestion I made, as the CPDs likely won't successfully breed. You're more likely to be overrun with endlers if you get females.

If you just did endlers with shrimp, you could do 10-12 or so males.
Okay, thank you! I would like to attempt to breed the fish I get (my LFS will gladly take donations of anything if I have too many), I just didn't want to have a bunch of fry of two species.
 

TexasDomer

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If you want to breed the CPDs, I wouldn't keep shrimp with them, and I'd have another tank to move the adults to after they spawn.

The endlers will be easier and can be kept with shrimp (as the shrimp won't eat the fry). Keep the females in a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 male. Do you have a store that will take the fry?
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
If you want to breed the CPDs, I wouldn't keep shrimp with them, and I'd have another tank to move the adults to after they spawn.

The endlers will be easier and can be kept with shrimp (as the shrimp won't eat the fry). Keep the females in a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 male. Do you have a store that will take the fry?

I would be breeding them in summer and I have pretty much unlimited space outdoors to put up breeding bins...so excess fry is fine. LFS will take anything, but fry would likely be used as feeder fish. I'll update my list and remove the CPDs.
 

TexasDomer

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Why do you want to breed if you don't care about the fry? Or are you breeding for fry so you'll have feeder fish? In that case, I'd go with guppies as they're larger and you'll get more food for your effort. What are you going to feed them to?
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
Why do you want to breed if you don't care about the fry? Or are you breeding for fry so you'll have feeder fish? In that case, I'd go with guppies as they're larger and you'll get more food for your effort. What are you going to feed them to?
Oh, no, I don't mean I'd use them as feeder fish. I mean my LFS would if I just gave them little fry. Sorry for the confusion!
 

TexasDomer

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Not necessarily. If you start with quality stock, you can grow out your fry and get a little bit of money for them as adults.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
Not necessarily. If you start with quality stock, you can grow out your fry and get a little bit of money for them as adults.
Yes, of course. I meant newborn fry - I assume that they look discolored as newborns like guppy fry, correct?
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
I think so!
Perhaps I'll just stick to a community tank with a trio of endlers or guppies so I can keep fry numbers down but be able to rear a couple if I want to. I just enjoy breeding to try to get some pretty looking fish; I used to do it a while back with pet store guppies and had a lot of fun seeing the color combos. Got a whole rainbow.
I'll pull out my fish book to see what kind of other fish I'd be interested in. It is too bad that endlers and guppies can interbreed; that would be so cool to see those two together in a tank.

TexasDomer
What do you think the optimal temperature for endlers is? I do not want to waste anyone's time asking about tank-mates that aren't temp compatible. Thanks!
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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I think I have found some fish that I like that seem easily available (either online or at my LFS). I just really want this tank to look balanced, I love my livebearer tank but it just feels kind of empty. I want this one to have more of a 'full' feel to it.

How would these do together, and if they'd do well, how many could I/should I keep together?

Harlequin rasboras
Endlers livebearer
Asian stone catfish
Cherry shrimp
One netrite snail

Thanks for all of the help, everyone!

After doing some more research on the Asian stone catfish, it seems that they are very sensitive. I think I will pass on them. Are there any other types of bottom feeders (or dwellers) that would do well with cherry shrimp? (I don't mind if they can eat the newly born babies, just not the adults.)
I saw pygmy cories, but it seems they aren't strictly bottom dwellers.

Thanks!
 

TexasDomer

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In a 20 gal high, you could do kuhlis? Unfortunately, the other smaller cory species (C. hastatus or C. habrosus are small and stay on the bottom) don't have much temp overlap with enders, which prefer warm waters. You could swing both at 76 F or so, but it'd be easier to go with kuhlis, where you have more freedom for temp of the tank.

Asian stone catfish aren't temp compatible anyway.

If you want to raise endler fry, I wouldn't add a schooling fish (like the harlequins). They'll eat the fry.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
In a 20 gal high, you could do kuhlis? Unfortunately, the other smaller cory species (C. hastatus or C. habrosus are small and stay on the bottom) don't have much temp overlap with enders, which prefer warm waters. You could swing both at 76 F or so, but it'd be easier to go with kuhlis, where you have more freedom for temp of the tank.

Asian stone catfish aren't temp compatible anyway.

If you want to raise endler fry, I wouldn't add a schooling fish (like the harlequins). They'll eat the fry.
Okay; I don't mind if some of the fry are eaten - I can raise whatever I find in another tank like I do with my guppies. Honestly that would probably be the best option for me so I don't get an extreme number of fry. I plan to heavily plant the tank for the fish as I would love to do a real aquascape on this tank, so some fry should be able to make it.
Would harlequin rasboras eat adult cherry shrimp or should I be fine there?

I will think about the kuhlis; if they bury themselves in the substrate using play sand will be a no-go. Too messy.

I appreciate the help!

I think I may skip bottom feeders after reviewing my aquascape plan. There may be too many rocks for them to be happy, unless they're shrimp or snails. I'll draw a picture of my plan and post it to see what you all would recommend as far as fish if I did an aquascape like it.

TexasDomer If I did not intend to specifically breed whatever I put in here (aside from the cherry shrimp) what would you personally put in a 20 high tank aquascaped like this? I just really want it to look nice.
 

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TexasDomer

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Java fern shouldn't have the rhizome buried or it'll die; it's easiest to attach it to rocks or driftwood. You may have trouble with its current placement.

I'd go with a smaller sword than the Amazon - it'll get large enough to fill your whole tank.

Harlequins shouldn't eat adult RCS.

The kuhlis shouldn't make a mess of things, they're not crazy buriers, but you can still pass on them of course.

If it were me, I'd do a few endlers and a schooling fish smaller than the harlequins, like ember tetra or chilI rasbora.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
Java fern shouldn't have the rhizome buried or it'll die; it's easiest to attach it to rocks or driftwood. You may have trouble with its current placement.

I'd go with a smaller sword than the Amazon - it'll get large enough to fill your whole tank.

Harlequins shouldn't eat adult RCS.

The kuhlis shouldn't make a mess of things, they're not crazy buriers, but you can still pass on them of course.

If it were me, I'd do a few endlers and a schooling fish smaller than the harlequins, like ember tetra or chilI rasbora.
Okay, I'll search for some smaller sword options! Thanks for the warning! I can attach the java fern to a piece of driftwood no problem.

ChilI rasboras are available to me I believe - I'll check aquabid to see the micro-rasboras are on there. How about a trio of endlers, (8?) micro-rasboras, and a bunch of cherry shrimp?

Right now my poor 20 high is bare bottom with some guppy fry - nothing is set in stone yet! XD
 

TexasDomer

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I would do 10-15x micro rasboras! A larger school will be more brave and less skittish.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
I would do 10-15x micro rasboras! A larger school will be more brave and less skittish.
Okay! All of these rasboras were in my price range on aquabid (that were tank raised) and look pretty cool. Will any of these do? I'm not 100% sure if these are micro-rasboras or not.

Emerald Dwarf Rasbora
Microdevario kubotaI “Green Rasbora”
Sawbwa Resplendens

The latter two were my favorites.
 

TexasDomer

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The Sawbwa and emerald dwarf rasbora aren't temp compatible with endlers But the green rasbora would work!
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
The Sawbwa and emerald dwarf rasbora aren't temp compatible with endlers But the green rasbora would work!
Okay! I'll do them if they're still around when I set up the tank. Hopefully aquabid will still have them when I have everything set up and cycled! Thanks a lot!

Just to make sure, the stocking plan will be:

3 x endlers
10-15 x Microdevario kubotaI “Green Rasbora”
Cherry shrimp
1 x netrite snail

Correct? Thanks again!
 

nedpatrick

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Bruxes and Bubbles said:
Okay! I'll do them if they're still around when I set up the tank. Hopefully aquabid will still have them when I have everything set up and cycled! Thanks a lot!

Just to make sure, the stocking plan will be:

3 x endlers
10-15 x Microdevario kubotaI “Green Rasbora”
Cherry shrimp
1 x netrite snail

Correct? Thanks again!
I'm pretty sure the microdevario kubotaI needs a bigger tank. I believe it was Coradee who kept them and said that they are incredibly active for their size and need at least a 3 ft long tank and that even that felt too small.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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nedpatrick said:
I'm pretty sure the microdevario kubotaI needs a bigger tank. I believe it was Coradee who kept them and said that they are incredibly active for their size and need at least a 3 ft long tank and that even that felt too small.
Seriously? I found endlers that would match perfectly with them and everything...really hope that they can live in my tank...
I will do more research on the species from different sources. Seriously Fish suggests a tank size of "60 ∗ 30 cm" for this species.

I would like to get everyone's thought on this, I don't want to put incompatible fish in the 20 high and have to rehome them.

I believe this is the post you spoke of?
Neon Green Tetra school size

(All of the stocking experts I remember I'll link to to see if we can get some opinions - it's okay if anyone doesn't know!) TexasDomer Anders247 aquatickeeper Al913 Coradee and anyone else - you guys' thoughts?
 

TexasDomer

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They should be fine in a 24" tank though - there's a big difference between a 5 gal and a 20 gal high, and Coradee wasn't saying that they had to be kept in a 3 ft tank (at least not in that post).
 

nedpatrick

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Bruxes and Bubbles said:
Seriously? I found endlers that would match perfectly with them and everything...really hope that they can live in my tank...
I will do more research on the species from different sources. Seriously Fish suggests a tank size of "60 ∗ 30 cm" for this species.

I would like to get everyone's thought on this, I don't want to put incompatible fish in the 20 high and have to rehome them.

I believe this is the post you spoke of?
Neon Green Tetra school size

(All of the stocking experts I remember I'll link to to see if we can get some opinions - it's okay if anyone doesn't know!) TexasDomer Anders247 aquatickeeper Al913 Coradee and anyone else - you guys' thoughts?
TexasDomer said:
They should be fine in a 24" tank though - there's a big difference between a 5 gal and a 20 gal high, and Coradee wasn't saying that they had to be kept in a 3 ft tank (at least not in that post).
I'm referring to this post(page 3) where she says that they make even a 3 foot tank look too small for them but I may have misinterpreted that.

Help - Making Stocking List For 5 Gallon Aquarium
 

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TexasDomer said:
They should be fine in a 24" tank though - there's a big difference between a 5 gal and a 20 gal high, and Coradee wasn't saying that they had to be kept in a 3 ft tank (at least not in that post).
Agreed.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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Okay. Phew. I'll see what Coradee says and assuming she thinks it's okay I'll stick with Microdevario kubotai. I really like the green sheen of the little guys coupled with the bright orange of the endlers I'm looking at.
 

Coradee

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Hi, yes the microdevario kubotaI are very active for their size & I'd suggest a minimum 2ft tank for them, my 3ft comment was just saying that bigger would be better if it's possible.
I also notice C.hastatus mentioned above, they aren't a bottom dwelling cory, they spend the majority of their time in the middle levels only going to the bottom to rest or feed, if you want a small bottom dwelling cory then as was said C. habrosus would be an option
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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Coradee said:
Hi, yes the microdevario kubotaI are very active for their size & I'd suggest a minimum 2ft tank for them, my 3ft comment was just saying that bigger would be better if it's possible.
I also notice C.hastatus mentioned above, they aren't a bottom dwelling cory, they spend the majority of their time in the middle levels only going to the bottom to rest or feed, if you want a small bottom dwelling cory then as was said C. habrosus would be an option

Thank you for the reply! I am sticking to cherry shrimp as the bottom feeders - low bio-load, hardy, and fun to watch.
Since you own them, a quick question about the Microdevario kubotaI if you don't mind? My PH is 8.2-8.4; will tank raised specimens be able to acclimate to this PH if done very slowly?

Thanks!
 

Coradee

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I would imagine that if you get locally raised Fish they would be ok at that Ph & if they are raised in similiar Ph to yours they wouldn't need an extended acclimatisation period.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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Coradee said:
I would imagine that if you get locally raised Fish they would be ok at that Ph & if they are raised in similiar Ph to yours they wouldn't need an extended acclimatisation period.
Thank you.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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I have a few questions pertaining to the aquascape itself since this will be my first real planted tank. I plan to do my tank in this order:

Substrates/rocks
Driftwoods
Plant Light
Filter/Heater
Cycling
Plants
Livestock

Substrate question:

What is the best dirt looking substrate that does not need a gravel or sand cap, and is inert?

Does Eco-Complete look like dirt?

Plant light:

For these plants:

Frogbit, Anubias barteri, bacopa, java fern, java moss, Cryptocoryne wendtii, Echinodorus 'Oriental'

What sort of lighting should I get (preferably under $50, if possible, but I can save up for longer if need be)? Will I need Co2? Or just root tabs or a liquid supplement?
If there are any that are very hard to care for, please feel free to suggest alternatives. I'm open to any 'jungle' looking plants.


Filter questions:

I am debating going with an Aqueon Quietflow 30 (I have had great success with this type of filter), or trying a canister filter for the first time. Thoughts?


I do have to go to bed now, so likely will not see answers until the morning!

I appreciate all of the help, you guys! My tanks would be a mess without all of you.
 

TexasDomer

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Coradee said:
I also notice C.hastatus mentioned above, they aren't a bottom dwelling cory, they spend the majority of their time in the middle levels only going to the bottom to rest or feed, if you want a small bottom dwelling cory then as was said C. habrosus would be an option
So both C. hastatus and C. pygmaeus inhabit the middle levels? I thought it was only C. pygmaeus. Good to know!

Bruxes and Bubbles said:
I have a few questions pertaining to the aquascape itself since this will be my first real planted tank. I plan to do my tank in this order:

Substrates/rocks
Driftwoods
Plant Light
Filter/Heater
Cycling
Plants
Livestock

You can put the plants in before you cycle, if you want.

Substrate question:

What is the best dirt looking substrate that does not need a gravel or sand cap, and is inert?

What about just sand by itself? Super cheap, and it's super easy and cheap to use root tabs below the root feeding plants.

Does Eco-Complete look like dirt?

Like large grain dirt.

Plant light:

For these plants:

Frogbit, Anubias barteri, bacopa, java fern, java moss, Cryptocoryne wendtii, Echinodorus 'Oriental'

The Echinodorus 'Oriental' is the only one that would need medium light to do well. You'll need to pay special attention to your lighting and ferts situation so you're not overrun with algae (which is a bigger problem in medium light than lower light tanks). Alternatively, you can swap this out for another plant that's a little less demanding if you wanted a low light tank.

What sort of lighting should I get (preferably under $50, if possible, but I can save up for longer if need be)? Will I need Co2? Or just root tabs or a liquid supplement?
If there are any that are very hard to care for, please feel free to suggest alternatives. I'm open to any 'jungle' looking plants.

You don't need CO2, and most of the time, you really don't need a liquid CO2 supplement either.

For lighting, if changed that sword for something else (like a different crypt or a different color variety of C. wendtii), you could go with a Finnex Stingray for low light.

Or you could go the DIY route and use lights from a hardware store. Easy, cheap, and efficient.

Filter questions:

I am debating going with an Aqueon Quietflow 30 (I have had great success with this type of filter), or trying a canister filter for the first time. Thoughts?

I love my canisters, but it's definitely feasible/fine to do an HOB on this size tank if you want. I'm not a fan of the Aqueon Quietflows, but that's because I had a bad experience with one. If you like them, go for it! Sounds like a good plan.

I do have to go to bed now, so likely will not see answers until the morning!

I appreciate all of the help, you guys! My tanks would be a mess without all of you.
See responses in green above
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
So both C. hastatus and C. pygmaeus inhabit the middle levels? I thought it was only C. pygmaeus. Good to know!



See responses in green above
Will ammonia dosing to cycle harm the plants at all? I'm a newbie to indoor planted tanks, so I just wanted to check.

Thank you! The reason I wanted kind of a 'dirt' feel is that I'm trying to replicate a jungle-like setting. I will see if there is a darker sand out there that looks like dirt.

Okay, I'll see if there are some better low-light plants to switch the sword out with. How about Crypt spiralis, Tropica Sword, African Water Fern, or Downoi?

I'm going to do more research on the canister filters so I can see if it's the right choice for me. I do like how they're not as noticeable.
 

TexasDomer

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The amount of ammonia you're using shouldn't hurt the plants. In fact, they take up some ammonia.

Black diamond blasting sand is a good substrate. I also use Turface Pro for my tanks, and that's a great substrate. Looks like dirt!

All of those should be in medium light except the sword, which is fine in low light, so that would work!
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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TexasDomer said:
The amount of ammonia you're using shouldn't hurt the plants. In fact, they take up some ammonia.

Black diamond blasting sand is a good substrate. I also use Turface Pro for my tanks, and that's a great substrate. Looks like dirt!

All of those should be in medium light except the sword, which is fine in low light, so that would work!
Perfect then! I'll do the tropica sword and I will look into Turface Pro.
 
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Bruxes and Bubbles

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Updating this for myself so I have everything in one place. I'm thinking about possibly making a 3D background for the tank...maybe...

Tank setup order:
1.) Make canopy with light fixture.
2.) Add substrates.
3.) Aquascape with the rocks and driftwood.
4.) Make canister filter.
5.) Fill up tank and add heater.
6.) Cycle the tank.
7.) Add plants.
8.) Add livestock. (Order: Cherry shrimp, endlers, netrite snail, then Microdevario kubotai.)


Plants:

Anubias barteri
Bacopa
Cryptocoryne wendtii
Frogbit
Java fern
Java moss
Tropica sword
 

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