What To Do... Cycling Aquarium

I started a new 20 gallon long aquarium. I chose this size because of it's shape and the area that it is in. I know that the larger the aquarium, the easier it is to maintain, but it is what it is.
I cycled "fishless" for 4 weeks, using Prime and fish food. At that time, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels were perfect, so I added 4 black widow Tetras. That was 2 weeks ago. I was feeding them once a day, then noticed that the ammonia level was rising, so I cut their feeding to once every two days. The ammonia is now between 0.25 ppm and 0.50 ppm and I am still using Prime every other day. I have siphoned the tank at least once a week, and replaced about 25-30% of the water. I have not touched the foam media that is in the filter, because I don't want to disturb the "good bacteria" balance. It is now 7 weeks into cycling, and I am getting a bit frustrated because I can't seem to stabilize the ammonia and get it to 0 ppm. I was going to add only 2 fish initially, but the sales person said that since the fish I chose was a schooling fish, that she felt 4 of them would be ok to add to my aquarium. I tested my tap water, and using the water filter I have, it tested at 0 ppm. About 4 days ago, when I did a water change, I used 5 gallons of Spring Water, bought at the store, hoping that it would make a difference. Prior to using it, I tested it, and it was 0 ppm. Now, here I am, still having ammonia challenges. Would like to know, is it going to get better if I just continue doing what I am doing, because only been cycling for 7 weeks? The fish seem happy, are active, and I have been adding some additional biological material using Imagitarium Biolgoical Booster. The Ph is staying at about 6.6, the Nitrites are 0 ppm, and the Nitrates are 0 ppm. Can I continue to use Prime every other day to keep the fish safe until (hopefully) the ammonia level gets to 0 ppm? Any other suggestions? Thanks!

 

I started a new 20 gallon long aquarium. I chose this size because of it's shape and the area that it is in. I know that the larger the aquarium, the easier it is to maintain, but it is what it is.
I cycled "fishless" for 4 weeks, using Prime and fish food. At that time, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels were perfect, so I added 4 black widow Tetras. That was 2 weeks ago. I was feeding them once a day, then noticed that the ammonia level was rising, so I cut their feeding to once every two days. The ammonia is now between 0.25 ppm and 0.50 ppm and I am still using Prime every other day. I have siphoned the tank at least once a week, and replaced about 25-30% of the water. I have not touched the foam media that is in the filter, because I don't want to disturb the "good bacteria" balance. It is now 7 weeks into cycling, and I am getting a bit frustrated because I can't seem to stabilize the ammonia and get it to 0 ppm. I was going to add only 2 fish initially, but the sales person said that since the fish I chose was a schooling fish, that she felt 4 of them would be ok to add to my aquarium. I tested my tap water, and using the water filter I have, it tested at 0 ppm. About 4 days ago, when I did a water change, I used 5 gallons of Spring Water, bought at the store, hoping that it would make a difference. Prior to using it, I tested it, and it was 0 ppm. Now, here I am, still having ammonia challenges. Would like to know, is it going to get better if I just continue doing what I am doing, because only been cycling for 7 weeks? The fish seem happy, are active, and I have been adding some additional biological material using Imagitarium Biolgoical Booster. The Ph is staying at about 6.6, the Nitrites are 0 ppm, and the Nitrates are 0 ppm. Can I continue to use Prime every other day to keep the fish safe until (hopefully) the ammonia level gets to 0 ppm? Any other suggestions? Thanks!

Yes, it will get better! When you were using fish food to cycle the tank, did you see a rise in ammonia and then a rise in nitrites, then a rise in nitrates?

It sounds like you never cycled with the fish food or you somehow lost your cycle. If your tank was cycled you should most definitely see nitrates. Is the pH of your tap water 6.6? It's a little low and could be part of the reason it's taking longer to cycle.

 

Did you ever see nitrite and nitrate during your fishless cycle? Should have had a nitrite spike after ammo started getting processed and then nitrate soon after. If those levels never rose you may have never been cycled.

What kind of filter and media is it?

Any thing else in the tank that could produce ammonia? Decaying plants?

Seems like you're doing the right stuff. But I'd do more frequent 50 percent changes to keep the ammo as low as possible and definitely always below 1ppm as Prime only helps up to that. Maybe every other day when you do your water change along with enough prime for a 5x dose, so 2 capfulls I believe.

 

If you didn't use bacteria booster or live culture of them at start cycle can go for two months. Go buy some live bacteria culture and add it to tank.

 

Welcome to Fishlore!!!

 

Hi, welcome to fishlore.

I suspect that what may have happened here is, when you cycled the tank with fish food, you possibly didn't add enough fish food, or didn't add fish food frequently enough, to feed a growing bacteria colony. The fish food method can work, but it's hard to really control it, and if you don't have a liquid test kit, it's even harder to know how much ammonia the fish food is releasing into the water, if any. For this reason, people tend to prefer bottled ammonia over fish food for cycling. But now you have fish in the tank, and your cycle will continue as it should.

Keep using Prime, and keep up with your water changes. I think your tank is either going into a mini-cycle, or it never really completed the cycle in the first place and is cycling now that you've added fish.

Since you've already added the bacteria booster product, I would not keep adding that. You're only supposed to put that in the tank once. Continued use can be harmful to your fish. I know the bottle says to add it at every water change. Ignore that. They just want you keep buying more.

And don't mess with the spring water. It probably has a very different pH than what comes out of your tap, and the fluctuation back and forth between spring water pH (likely low) and tap water pH (likely high) could be harmful.

 

Welcome to FishLore!

The first thing I want to recommend is you read up on and fully understand the nitrogen cycle (blue words should be link to article explaining it). It will help you understand my loooog answer (but highly comprehensive, if I do say so myself...ouch, just hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back) below.

Okay, I think I may know what your problem is. At a pH below 7.0 ammonia starts turning into ammonium, and by the time the pH gets down to 6.0, all ammonia has turned into ammonium.

The good thing about ammonium is that it is far less toxic (some claim it is non-toxic) than ammonia. But the bad thing is that ammonium is a terrible food source for the ammonia converting bacteria. So with your pH it may become difficult to cycle your tank.

So with you pH at 6.6, lets just say that half of the ammonia in the tank is ammonia and half has turned into ammonium. In theory, you would think that you would be able to grow a bacteria colony that is converting the half that is ammonia into nitrites (and leaving the half that is ammonium behind) and then there is a bacteria colony converting those nitrites into nitrates.

But since your nitrate level is 0ppm, that tells me one of two things:
1) No ammonia has been converted or
2) Ammonia has been converted, but there is just so small of an amount and your water changes are keeping the nitrate level so low, it isn't registering on your test kit.

Hopefully, you are using a liquid based test kit such as the API Master Test Kit for freshwater. Test strips are notorious for being inaccurate.

One last thing is that assuming your test kit is accurate, if you wanted to, you could raise your pH to 7.0 or above, therefore insuring all ammonia stays as ammonia and your bacteria colony will process it. The best/safest way to raise your pH is by either adding crushed coral (you can put it in a media bag and stuff it into your filter if there is room, or you can put the bag of crushed coral directly into the tank, or you can just sprinkle it in with your substrate), or you can put a plain white, unflavored cuttle bone (you know, those things they sell in the bird section of the pet store) in your filter or directly in the tank.

Bet you didn't thing you question would have such a long answer...sorry.

Best of luck and feel free to ask any additional questions yo may have.

 

Yes, it will get better! When you were using fish food to cycle the tank, did you see a rise in ammonia and then a rise in nitrites, then a rise in nitrates?

It sounds like you never cycled with the fish food or you somehow lost your cycle. If your tank was cycled you should most definitely see nitrates. Is the pH of your tap water 6.6? It's a little low and could be part of the reason it's taking longer to cycle.

Thank you for the reply! I may have been too aggressive with my tank cleaning; and so, you may be right, I may have siphoned out some of the good bacteria when I cleaned the tank and did the partial water changes. I also changed the filter because it was looking a little dingy, and I have since found out I should not have done that either, I honestly don't remember if I saw a spike in the nitrates. I kept a record of the chemicals I put in, but did not keep good records of the actual readings; I did the testing faithfully every day, and I guess I thought that as long as I was putting in the chemicals recommended by the Seachem rep., that it would cycle like it was supposed to.
So, going forward when it is cycled, the nitrates will register a reading?

 

Thank you for the reply! I may have been too aggressive with my tank cleaning; and so, you may be right, I may have siphoned out some of the good bacteria when I cleaned the tank and did the partial water changes. I also changed the filter because it was looking a little dingy, and I have since found out I should not have done that either, I honestly don't remember if I saw a spike in the nitrates. I kept a record of the chemicals I put in, but did not keep good records of the actual readings; I did the testing faithfully every day, and I guess I thought that as long as I was putting in the chemicals recommended by the Seachem rep., that it would cycle like it was supposed to.
So, going forward when it is cycled, the nitrates will register a reading?

Good thing you learned about the filter! When did you change it? When you did, you restarted your cycle. For cycling, you should see a spike in ammonia, a spike in nitrites, and when you are done cycling, you will have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and nitrates will be present.

 

Hi, welcome to fishlore.

I suspect that what may have happened here is, when you cycled the tank with fish food, you possibly didn't add enough fish food, or didn't add fish food frequently enough, to feed a growing bacteria colony. The fish food method can work, but it's hard to really control it, and if you don't have a liquid test kit, it's even harder to know how much ammonia the fish food is releasing into the water, if any. For this reason, people tend to prefer bottled ammonia over fish food for cycling. But now you have fish in the tank, and your cycle will continue as it should.

Keep using Prime, and keep up with your water changes. I think your tank is either going into a mini-cycle, or it never really completed the cycle in the first place and is cycling now that you've added fish.

Since you've already added the bacteria booster product, I would not keep adding that. You're only supposed to put that in the tank once. Continued use can be harmful to your fish. I know the bottle says to add it at every water change. Ignore that. They just want you keep buying more.

And don't mess with the spring water. It probably has a very different pH than what comes out of your tap, and the fluctuation back and forth between spring water pH (likely low) and tap water pH (likely high) could be harmful.

Thank you very much for the reply. I did not know the bacteria booster could be harmful to the fish. I will definitely stop using it. I also didn't think the Spring Water would have a different PH, but honestly, even before I added the Spring Water, my ph still hovered at 6.6 or even less.

 

To be fair, when used properly the bacteria booster is perfectly safe for fish. It's just continued, prolonged use is when it becomes hazardous.

 

Yes, it will get better! When you were using fish food to cycle the tank, did you see a rise in ammonia and then a rise in nitrites, then a rise in nitrates?

It sounds like you never cycled with the fish food or you somehow lost your cycle. If your tank was cycled you should most definitely see nitrates. Is the pH of your tap water 6.6? It's a little low and could be part of the reason it's taking longer to cycle.

The ph of my tap water (which I filter) is around 6.6 . I thought I had read somewhere that the lower ph was good for the ammonia, in the cycling process, that is why I didn't mess with it. Thank you so much for helping!

To be fair, when used properly the bacteria booster is perfectly safe for fish. It's just continued, prolonged use is when it becomes hazardous.

Ok, thanks, I may have been a little too zealous with it; thinking, "the more good bacteria I add, the faster it will cycle".

Did you ever see nitrite and nitrate during your fishless cycle? Should have had a nitrite spike after ammo started getting processed and then nitrate soon after. If those levels never rose you may have never been cycled.

What kind of filter and media is it?

Any thing else in the tank that could produce ammonia? Decaying plants?

Seems like you're doing the right stuff. But I'd do more frequent 50 percent changes to keep the ammo as low as possible and definitely always below 1ppm as Prime only helps up to that. Maybe every other day when you do your water change along with enough prime for a 5x dose, so 2 capfulls I believe.

The filter is an Aqueon QuietFlow 20 Internal Power filter; it has a sponge media that is placed in front of the actual filter, I only have fake plants, so there is no chance of anything else, that I know of, besides the fish that could be producing the ammonia. I will take your advice and do more frequent water changes. Should I also siphon the substrate (which is natural stone), or just siphon the water? Also, I did not know you could (or should) use more of the Prime than the bottle recommends, I thought it might mess things up. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to help me!

Welcome to FishLore!

The first thing I want to recommend is you read up on and fully understand the nitrogen cycle (blue words should be link to article explaining it). It will help you understand my loooog answer (but highly comprehensive, if I do say so myself...ouch, just hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back) below.

Okay, I think I may know what your problem is. At a pH below 7.0 ammonia starts turning into ammonium, and by the time the pH gets down to 6.0, all ammonia has turned into ammonium.

The good thing about ammonium is that it is far less toxic (some claim it is non-toxic) than ammonia. But the bad thing is that ammonium is a terrible food source for the ammonia converting bacteria. So with your pH it may become difficult to cycle your tank.

So with you pH at 6.6, lets just say that half of the ammonia in the tank is ammonia and half has turned into ammonium. In theory, you would think that you would be able to grow a bacteria colony that is converting the half that is ammonia into nitrites (and leaving the half that is ammonium behind) and then there is a bacteria colony converting those nitrites into nitrates.

But since your nitrate level is 0ppm, that tells me one of two things:
1) No ammonia has been converted or
2) Ammonia has been converted, but there is just so small of an amount and your water changes are keeping the nitrate level so low, it isn't registering on your test kit.

Hopefully, you are using a liquid based test kit such as the API Master Test Kit for freshwater. Test strips are notorious for being inaccurate.

One last thing is that assuming your test kit is accurate, if you wanted to, you could raise your pH to 7.0 or above, therefore insuring all ammonia stays as ammonia and your bacteria colony will process it. The best/safest way to raise your pH is by either adding crushed coral (you can put it in a media bag and stuff it into your filter if there is room, or you can put the bag of crushed coral directly into the tank, or you can just sprinkle it in with your substrate), or you can put a plain white, unflavored cuttle bone (you know, those things they sell in the bird section of the pet store) in your filter or directly in the tank.

Bet you didn't thing you question would have such a long answer...sorry.

Best of luck and feel free to ask any additional questions yo may have.

Thanks so much! Long answers are great, they help me to understand more things! I am using an API Test Kit, that has the Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and PH testing ability.
I did read somewhere that you can raise PH by using shells, like those you find at the beach, is that ok to use (because I have various sizes of those),

 

If you want to use shells you collected from the outdoors, boil them first. A lot of people use crushed coral substrate, or put some crushed coral inside their filter, to help raise the pH. Cuttlebone will help as well. Just put it inside your filter if you don't want to see it, or hide it behind something in the tank. There are also certain rocks that, when placed in your aquarium, will help raise the pH, but I don't know what type of rocks those are. I can't speak for the effectiveness of any of these, though, as my tap water has a pH around 8.0.

Also, a lower pH isn't necessarily "good for ammonia"... the thing is, when your pH drops below around 6 I believe, ammonia becomes ammonium, and ammonium is less harmful to fish than ammonia is. But, ammonium won't cycle a tank. Beneficial bacteria won't eat ammonium. You need ammonia for that.

 

But, ammonium won't cycle a tank. won't eat ammonium. You need ammonia for that.

Short answer: Yes, ammonium will have difficulty in cycling a tank. Keep the pH high (7.5-8.5) and avoid ammonia detoxifiers like Prime.

Long answer: There's some evidence that ammonia-oxidising bacteria, like Nitrosomonas spp., can oxidate ammonium ions. But it seems that this behaviour arises from their long-term adaptation in an acidic ecosystem.

 

The good news is that your water is soft, and tetras love soft, acidic water. The bad news is that it may have less buffering, which could cause all you numbers to fluctuate. You will have to find out KH and/or GH to find out if you need to work on the buffering. Here's a fishlore article on the subject: GH, KH, and pH

About the ammonia: have you done a reading of your tap water to see if anything registers? Sometimes, there can be positive readings depending on your municipal water's treatment system as well as fluctuations due to weather, etc.

Next, I highly recommend using Amquel Plus instead of Prime. Prime will detoxify for about 24 hours, but Amquel Plus seems to do so indefinitely. I made the switch after we had a nitrate issue in our municipal water due to drought a few years ago, and members here recommended Amquel Plus. It has worked very well for me ever since.

If you have ammonia showing up and do not use a product such as Amquel Plus to get rid of it (I would give a half dose directly into the tank water), then starving your fish is not helping things. I know some LFS have been recommending that, but it only makes sense for people who are overfeeding their fish (which some beginners do). If you're feeding them just enough for them to quickly eat in less than a minute, that's not the issue, and starving them on top of bad water is too stressful. In that case, you need to do a large enough water change, even as much as 90% if necessary, because you want 0 ammonia showing. You can also change the carbon media if you're using that. Whatever it takes--ammonia is too stressful for tetras.

Now, congratulations, because you have been working hard on this tank, and it will pay off. Once the water parameters are good, sit down with a beer or cup of herbal tea, whatever works for you, and relax while watching your happy fish

 

You can use shells, but boil first as mentioned above. But the thing with shells is that it takes longer for them to raise the pH. The crushed coral, cuttle bone or shells actually raise the KH (the carbonate hardness) as they slowly dissolve, since as the dissolve they release calcium into the water. Then the higher KH leads to a higher pH. The coral and cuttle bone work quicker, since they are actually crushed (I believe the cuttle may be pressed powder but I'm not 100% on that since I have never used one). The shell on the other hand will dissolve much more slowly.

 

If you want to use shells you collected from the outdoors, boil them first. A lot of people use crushed coral substrate, or put some crushed coral inside their filter, to help raise the pH. Cuttlebone will help as well. Just put it inside your filter if you don't want to see it, or hide it behind something in the tank. There are also certain rocks that, when placed in your aquarium, will help raise the pH, but I don't know what type of rocks those are. I can't speak for the effectiveness of any of these, though, as my tap water has a pH around 8.0.

Also, a lower pH isn't necessarily "good for ammonia"... the thing is, when your pH drops below around 6 I believe, ammonia becomes ammonium, and ammonium is less harmful to fish than ammonia is. But, ammonium won't cycle a tank. Beneficial bacteria won't eat ammonium. You need ammonia for that.

Ok, I had some sea shells here, so I boiled them, and added four small ones to the tank. This morning, the PH was at 7.8, which was a lot higher than the 6.6 it was before the shells. I immediate took out all but two small shells, and will do a water change in a little while.
I tested my filtered tap water and it was at .50; the unfiltered tap water tested at 1.0. Someone said that I should not use bought Spring Water because it might cause problems, but my dilemma is, if I use my filtered tap water, I am adding in a lot of ammonia, which I am trying to get rid of. So, what should I do?

The good news is that your water is soft, and tetras love soft, acidic water. The bad news is that it may have less buffering, which could cause all you numbers to fluctuate. You will have to find out KH and/or GH to find out if you need to work on the buffering. Here's a fishlore article on the subject: GH, KH, and pH

About the ammonia: have you done a reading of your tap water to see if anything registers? Sometimes, there can be positive readings depending on your municipal water's treatment system as well as fluctuations due to weather, etc.

Next, I highly recommend using Amquel Plus instead of Prime. Prime will detoxify for about 24 hours, but Amquel Plus seems to do so indefinitely. I made the switch after we had a nitrate issue in our municipal water due to drought a few years ago, and members here recommended Amquel Plus. It has worked very well for me ever since.

If you have ammonia showing up and do not use a product such as Amquel Plus to get rid of it (I would give a half dose directly into the tank water), then starving your fish is not helping things. I know some LFS have been recommending that, but it only makes sense for people who are overfeeding their fish (which some beginners do). If you're feeding them just enough for them to quickly eat in less than a minute, that's not the issue, and starving them on top of bad water is too stressful. In that case, you need to do a large enough water change, even as much as 90% if necessary, because you want 0 ammonia showing. You can also change the carbon media if you're using that. Whatever it takes--ammonia is too stressful for tetras.

Now, congratulations, because you have been working hard on this tank, and it will pay off. Once the water parameters are good, sit down with a beer or cup of herbal tea, whatever works for you, and relax while watching your happy fish

I ordered Amquel yesterday from Amazon, it should arrive today. My question is, you said "it seems to detoxify Ammonia indefinitely", how can I be sure it does, if my ammonia levels rise to an apparent unsafe level for the fish? Also, I guess I should wait until it arrives to do my water change, as I have been using Prime for that; but don't want to use Prime, if I intend to start using Amquel instead, ??

 

It's a very pleasant surprise to see that the shells raised your pH that quickly.

I used to use Amquel as my water conditioner, and apparently if you have water with a low KH & GH, prolonged use of Amquel can cause a pH crash. They now mention this on their website, but sadly didn't have the info available back when I was using it.

So to make a long story short, I ended up losing a tank full of fish due to a pH crash caused by Amquel. So I have since switched to Prime.

One other thing I wanted to mention is that Kardon recommends using Amquelalong with NovAqua. NovAqua removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals from the water, like all other water conditioners. Amquel on the other hand removes chlorine & chloramines and detoxes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but does not remove heavy metals. So if you do not use both, and your water contains heavy metals, your fish are in trouble.

 

It's a very pleasant surprise to see that the shells raised your pH that quickly.

I used to use Amquel as my water conditioner, and apparently if you have water with a low KH & GH, prolonged use of Amquel can cause a pH crash. They now mention this on their website, but sadly didn't have the info available back when I was using it.

So to make a long story short, I ended up losing a tank full of fish due to a pH crash caused by Amquel. So I have since switched to Prime.

One other thing I wanted to mention is that Kardon recommends using Amquelalong with NovAqua. NovAqua removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals from the water, like all other water conditioners. Amquel on the other hand removes chlorine & chloramines and detoxes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but does not remove heavy metals. So if you do not use both, and your water contains heavy metals, your fish are in trouble.

Ok, so the Amquel is going to be returned to Amazon... I don't want any PH crashes! I read a post on here regarding Prime, and it's ability to detoxify nitrates and nitrites. It is from the Seachem website.

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing ?

A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

The directions on a bottle of Prime also states that to detoxify nitrite in an emergency ... up to 5x the normal dose can be used. Interestingly, + if dosed by drops per gallon calls for 10 drops according to 's site. As previously mentioned ... Prime if dosed by drops per gallon is 2 drops. Thus, 5x the normal dose would be 10 drops per gallon.

Nowhere have I read/heard of Seachem stating approximately how much nitrite/nitrate Prime's standard dosage detoxes. Kordon however states that Amquel+ at standard dosage detoxes "at least 2.0 /L (=2.0 ppm) of , and at least 13 ppm (=13 mg/L) of nitrates." Keeping in mind standard dosage is (using drops per gallon in this case) 2 drops p/g (Prime) and 10 drops p/g (Amquel+)

So, my question is, would it be plausible to add 2 or 3 x the recommended dosage every other day to ensure the safety of my fish?
Thanks again for helping a fledgling aquarium owner out,

 

First off, I have to say that I am somewhat skeptical about Prime detoxing nitrites and nitrates. I would feel much more confident if their chemists said it did, rather than customers.

But that said, I do always recommend that anyone trying to cycle a tank with fish (and not using a bacteria additive) should test their water every 24 hours. If ammonia+nitrites are less than 1ppm dose tank with enough Prime to treat entire volume. If ammonia+nitrites are 1ppm or greater, perform a 50% water change using enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume.

So basically, I'm a believer in keeping ammonia+nitrites under 1ppm at all time and just using a standard dose of Prime. SeaChem never says how much ammonia/nitrite a larger dose will detox. If a standard dose will detox 1ppm, will a 2X dose detox 2ppm? I don't know the answer to that question, so I try to err on the side of caution.

 

First off, I have to say that I am somewhat skeptical about Prime detoxing nitrites and nitrates. I would feel much more confident if their chemists said it did, rather than customers.

This is generally how I feel as well about Seachem's claim that Prime detoxifies nitrites/nitrates. They're haven't released much information based on its mechanism of action because it's "proprietary".

I've read information posted in other forums from more enterprising aquarists (who're far, far more knowledgeable in chemistry/fish biology than I ever will be) that Seachem's claims are pretty implausible based on the ingredients in Prime. There's nothing in the bottle that's been documented by any scientific research to have any effects on nitrite or nitrate.

I have the inkling that it's just another "myth" promoted by a company's over-eager marketing department.

 

First off, I have to say that I am somewhat skeptical about Prime detoxing nitrites and nitrates. I would feel much more confident if their chemists said it did, rather than customers.

But that said, I do always recommend that anyone trying to cycle a tank with fish (and not using a bacteria additive) should test their water every 24 hours. If ammonia+nitrites are less than 1ppm dose tank with enough Prime to treat entire volume. If ammonia+nitrites are 1ppm or greater, perform a 50% water change using enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume.

So basically, I'm a believer in keeping ammonia+nitrites under 1ppm at all time and just using a standard dose of Prime. SeaChem never says how much ammonia/nitrite a larger dose will detox. If a standard dose will detox 1ppm, will a 2X dose detox 2ppm? I don't know the answer to that question, so I try to err on the side of caution.

I totally trust what you are recommending; and will do what you suggest, I test my water every day. I am still concerned that the water that I am putting in the tank has a higher ammonia level than that I am taking out; but I will also test the nitrite and nitrates when I change it to see if it affected those readings as well,
Thank you so much! I am feeling better about how my aquarium is coming along.. If I had known that the cycle had been broken somehow,, I would have never added my fish; they have grown so much in the two weeks I have had them and I would hate if anything happened to them because of my ignorance about how to successfully prepare their habitat,
Thanks again, and I wish you and yours a blessed day!

 

First off...Thank you for the kind words.

Does your tap water contain ammonia? (If you already stated that it does, I missed that...sorry)

If you have more ammonia in your tap than the ammonia level in your tank, you are correct, you wouldn't want to do a water change. But once the ammonia level in your tank is higher than the ammonia level in your tap water, you should do a water change, since it will lower the ammonia level in the tank some.

I'm happy to hear you feel better about the tank. And don't feel bad, you far from being the first member to have these same problems. I don't even want to go into how I started out!

Best of luck!

 

First off...Thank you for the kind words.

Does your tap water contain ammonia? (If you already stated that it does, I missed that...sorry)

If you have more ammonia in your tap than the ammonia level in your tank, you are correct, you wouldn't want to do a water change. But once the ammonia level in your tank is higher than the ammonia level in your tap water, you should do a water change, since it will lower the ammonia level in the tank some.

I'm happy to hear you feel better about the tank. And don't feel bad, you far from being the first member to have these same problems. I don't even want to go into how I started out!

Best of luck!

Hello Again!
Ok, did some testing of my filtered tap water (I have one of those filters you hook up to the faucet), The filtered ph was 6.4; the filtered ammonia was .50
Then I tested the water in the aquarium, The ph was 7.6; ammonia was .25, nitrite was 0; and nitrate was 3.0 (that is a guesstimate because the color was between two of the colors) That is the first time I have seen a rise in the nitrate, and I am thrilled! I added 1 cap of Prime and 1 cap of Stability. All four fish seem to be doing well; no signs of stress that I can see. They are active little buggers. Since the ammonia level in the aquarium water is lower than my filtered tap water, I am going to leave it alone, and not do any kind of water change at this point, I do test everyday, so hopefully things will stay the same or get better, BTW, the Prime bottle does say it detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Just wanted to let you know that. Thanks again!

This is generally how I feel as well about Seachem's claim that Prime detoxifies nitrites/nitrates. They're haven't released much information based on its mechanism of action because it's "proprietary".

I've read information posted in other forums from more enterprising aquarists (who're far, far more knowledgeable in chemistry/fish biology than I ever will be) that Seachem's claims are pretty implausible based on the ingredients in Prime. There's nothing in the bottle that's been documented by any scientific research to have any effects on nitrite or nitrate.
I have the inkling that it's just another "myth" promoted by a company's over-eager marketing department.

Thank you for the reply! I did notice when I used Prime today, that it says on the bottle that it does detoxify ammonia, nitrite and nitrate; don't know if it really does, but my fish seem to be doing ok, and I attribute that to using Prime every other day. So far, the fish, who have been in the tank for two weeks (that I now realized had it's cycle interrupted, or just never began cycling) seem to be happy, and are not showing any signs of stress. The tank was up and running for a month before I put in the four tetras. I was doing a fishless cycling, but apparently I wasn't using enough fish food, or something else I did interrupted the cycling. Thank you so much for your advice and information!

Hello Again!
Ok, did some testing of my filtered tap water (I have one of those filters you hook up to the faucet), The filtered ph was 6.4; the filtered ammonia was .50
Then I tested the water in the aquarium, The ph was 7.6; ammonia was .25, nitrite was 0; and nitrate was 3.0 (that is a guesstimate because the color was between two of the colors) That is the first time I have seen a rise in the nitrate, and I am thrilled! I added 1 cap of Prime and 1 cap of Stability. All four fish seem to be doing well; no signs of stress that I can see. They are active little buggers. Since the ammonia level in the aquarium water is lower than my filtered tap water, I am going to leave it alone, and not do any kind of water change at this point, I do test everyday, so hopefully things will stay the same or get better, BTW, the Prime bottle does say it detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Just wanted to let you know that. Thanks again!

Wanted to show you my babies,

 

Like I said, I know the bottle says it detoxes nitrites and nitrates, but I don't know that I believe it based on their explanation of how they know it detoxes nitrites and nitrates.

 

Like I said, I know the bottle says it detoxes nitrites and nitrates, but I don't know that I believe it based on their explanation of how they know it detoxes nitrites and nitrates.

I do understand what you are saying, and I guess there is no way to know that. I am going to continue to treat as I said, and I guess if the fish have lasted this long, hopefully, they will make the full journey! Thanks again!!

 

Just to be clear...I do take the leap of faith that Prime will detox nitrite and nitrates (and always recommend people with elevated nitrites use Prime), I'm just not sure it actually does.

Yeah, I'm conflicted.

 

Just to be clear...I do take the leap of faith that Prime will detox nitrite and nitrates (and always recommend people with elevated nitrites use Prime), I'm just not sure it actually does.

Yeah, I'm conflicted.

LOL, well, I guess that makes two of us who are conflicted! Not being a chemist, I guess I too, will have to concede that it may possibly work; we are betting our fishes' life on it! Thanks!

 

Just to be clear...I do take the leap of faith that Prime will detox nitrite and nitrates (and always recommend people with elevated nitrites use Prime), I'm just not sure it actually does.

Yeah, I'm conflicted.

And this is why I often say we just have to trust that Prime does what they claim it does. I am one that recommends Prime since I personally do use it. I do try to point out though that it isn't some kind of miracle in a bottle and does absolutely nothing to help grow the bacteria we are trying to grow. It is first and foremost a water conditioner but apparently does help when there is ammonia present.

Lately it seems a lot of folks think one HAS to have it to successfully cycle a tank. That is not the case. It really isn't even necessary if one is doing a fishless cycle. Any of the many water conditioners will work just as well.

I do highly recommend it for folks that are doing a fish in cycle though because it supposedly does help protect the fish when spikes in ammonia and/or nitrites happen. I say supposedly because there is no definitive Proof that it does what it says. All I can state for sure is that I didn't lose a single fish during the cycling process and most of them are still with me going on 3 years. That tells me that it does help.

BTW GoldieB I love the fish you chose to start with. I had 6 of them in my tank. Mine, labeled as Long Finned Black Skirt Tetras, look just like yours but have really long fins. Sadly I lost one recently and have no idea as to why.

 

I do believe that Prime will detox ammonia, since SeaChems chemists claim that it does, so I assume they can prove that. But when SeaChem says that Prime detoxes nitrites because a lot of users said that while having nitrite spikes, they lost less fish when using Primes, I'm skeptical. SeaChem admits that even their own chemist's were surprised by the feedback from users.

And it's kinda like what you are saying, there are so many people who think Prime is a miracle in a bottle...are these the people giving SeaChem feedback?

 

I do believe that Prime will detox ammonia, since SeaChems chemists claim that it does, so I assume they can prove that. But when SeaChem says that Prime detoxes nitrites because a lot of users said that while having nitrite spikes, they lost less fish when using Primes, I'm skeptical. SeaChem admits that even their own chemist's were surprised by the feedback from users.

And it's kinda like what you are saying, there are so many people who think Prime is a miracle in a bottle...are these the people giving SeaChem feedback?

Right. I trust it to bind ammonia. I am not so sure it does anything for nitrites and/or nitrates. I have a hard time mentioning it to folks because I am not personally convinced that it does exactly what a lot of folks claim it does and that is why I try to stress that it is first and foremost a water conditioner that also binds ammonia. I often try to leave out the part of binding the 2 n's because I don't know for sure it is true. Just because something is said often doesn't make it a fact.

 

And this is why I often say we just have to trust that Prime does what they claim it does. I am one that recommends Prime since I personally do use it. I do try to point out though that it isn't some kind of miracle in a bottle and does absolutely nothing to help grow the bacteria we are trying to grow. It is first and foremost a water conditioner but apparently does help when there is ammonia present.

Lately it seems a lot of folks think one HAS to have it to successfully cycle a tank. That is not the case. It really isn't even necessary if one is doing a fishless cycle. Any of the many water conditioners will work just as well.

I do highly recommend it for folks that are doing a fish in cycle though because it supposedly does help protect the fish when spikes in ammonia and/or nitrites happen. I say supposedly because there is no definitive Proof that it does what it says. All I can state for sure is that I didn't lose a single fish during the cycling process and most of them are still with me going on 3 years. That tells me that it does help.

BTW GoldieB I love the fish you chose to start with. I had 6 of them in my tank. Mine, labeled as Long Finned Black Skirt Tetras, look just like yours but have really long fins. Sadly I lost one recently and have no idea as to why.

Thank you for your reply to my quandary, I do love the four little fish; and if I had known my cycle had been lost, I would never have risked putting them in the aquarium. But, they seem to be doing very well, and are quite well trained when it comes to feeding time. I read somewhere that fish can get startled if you move in front of the aquarium, but I believe mine get quite happy when they see me coming to feed them.

I am happy to hear that you have had a of success with this kind of fish; I got them because they are supposed to be quite hardy; and also they remind me of minI angel fish. I know they are schooling fish, but one of them likes to hang out by itself, and the other three swim in unison. The fourth one always knows when it's time to eat, though! I am so sorry you lost one of your fish; we can only do the best we know how, as far as caring for the fish; and sometimes things are just out of our hands.

I am happy to hear that you support using Prime; so far, it seems to be doing a great job. My ammonia level this morning was 0.25ppm, and my nitrite was 0, and nitrate was 5.0. I know nitrates in certain concentration can cause stress and sometimes the fish will develop some diseases. As I understand it, Prime also detoxifies the nitrate, is that correct?

Thanks so much for your help!!

Thank you for your reply to my quandary, I do love the four little fish; and if I had known my cycle had been lost, I would never have risked putting them in the aquarium. But, they seem to be doing very well, and are quite well trained when it comes to feeding time. I read somewhere that fish can get startled if you move in front of the aquarium, but I believe mine get quite happy when they see me coming to feed them.

I am happy to hear that you have had a of success with this kind of fish; I got them because they are supposed to be quite hardy; and also they remind me of minI angel fish. I know they are schooling fish, but one of them likes to hang out by itself, and the other three swim in unison. The fourth one always knows when it's time to eat, though! I am so sorry you lost one of your fish; we can only do the best we know how, as far as caring for the fish; and sometimes things are just out of our hands.

I am happy to hear that you support using Prime; so far, it seems to be doing a great job. My ammonia level this morning was 0.25ppm, and my nitrite was 0, and nitrate was 5.0. I know nitrates in certain concentration can cause stress and sometimes the fish will develop some diseases. As I understand it, Prime also detoxifies the nitrate, is that correct?

Thanks so much for your help!!

OOOPs, just reread your post, and you stated that you were not sure that Prime detoxifies anything but the ammonia.

 

Good Morning GoldieB. I do know that it says on the prime bottle that it detoxifies nitrites and/or nitrates but they say on their site that this was unexpected and as far as I know it hasn't been scientifically proven. They added that statement after hearing from customers that it does it. To me that isn't proof that it does. I do trust that it does detoxify ammonia and removed chlorine. That is really all I expect it to do.

Nitrates in low amounts, 20 or lower, will be alright. I actually have a hard time keeping them that low in my big tank. So normally mine get up to at least 40 between water changes.

I agree, that was my thought too. MinI peaceful Angelfish

 

I have to say, it was a very disappointing day when I realized the reason my fish seem happy to see me isn't because they love me, but because I give them food...I feel so used!

It's great to hear your fish are eating well. You can always tell a fish is healthy if it always seems like it hasn't eaten in a year. It's when fish stop being interested in food that you know you have a problem.

 

Since you've already added the bacteria booster product, I would not keep adding that. You're only supposed to put that in the tank once. Continued use can be harmful to your fish. I know the bottle says to add it at every water change. Ignore that. They just want you keep buying more.

+1. In my personal experience, adding a bacteria booster prolonged my cycle. It was only after discontinuing its use that my cycle finally completed. I was adding it every other day at one point. A few days after I stopped, my nitrites dropped to zero.

 

+1. In my personal experience, adding a bacteria booster prolonged my cycle. It was only after discontinuing its use that my cycle finally completed. I was adding it every other day at one point. A few days after I stopped, my nitrites dropped to zero.

Some bacteria additives work better than others. So your results can vary based on what product you are using. I've had very good success with Tetra SafeStart for example.

 

Good Morning GoldieB. I do know that it says on the prime bottle that it detoxifies nitrites and/or nitrates but they say on their site that this was unexpected and as far as I know it hasn't been scientifically proven. They added that statement after hearing from customers that it does it. To me that isn't proof that it does. I do trust that it does detoxify ammonia and removed chlorine. That is really all I expect it to do.

Nitrates in low amounts, 20 or lower, will be alright. I actually have a hard time keeping them that low in my big tank. So normally mine get up to at least 40 between water changes.

I agree, that was my thought too. MinI peaceful Angelfish

My nitrates tested at about 30 today (hard to tell as the color was between the color examples). I thought that was a good sign; I had not seen the nitrates at anything but a 0 before this past Sunday. I thought that seeing the nitrates have a reading indicated that the biological material was finally doing it's job! Ammonia was .25 and the nitrites were 0. I don't want to change the water, as the ammonia in my filtered tap water is higher than it is in my aquarium. I need to find a reliable source for info on adding bought Spring Water. I did add about 5 gallons of that last week, and it really helped bring the ammonia levels down. Someone said that there might be other concerns with using the bought water, so I'm still researching it. I will continue to treat every other day with Prime and Stability. The fish are doing well, I'm the one stressing over their habitat; they seem fine with it! LOL
Thanks for the message!

I have to say, it was a very disappointing day when I realized the reason my fish seem happy to see me isn't because they love me, but because I give them food...I feel so used!

It's great to hear your fish are eating well. You can always tell a fish is healthy if it always seems like it hasn't eaten in a year. It's when fish stop being interested in food that you know you have a problem.

You gave me a good laugh stating you were not aware your fish only loved you because you fed them! One of the "fish experts" at Petco told me I should only feed my fish once every two days. When I looked at him like he had two heads, he told me that "a hungry fish is a happy fish". I'm no fish expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but my fish look pretty darn happy when they get fed! (by the way, the pet expert didn't look like he has missed too many meals himself )
Thanks for the advice and the laugh! Hope your day is going well!

+1. In my personal experience, adding a bacteria booster prolonged my cycle. It was only after discontinuing its use that my cycle finally completed. I was adding it every other day at one point. A few days after I stopped, my nitrites dropped to zero.

Hi, and thank you for your valued information, I stopped adding the bacteria booster several days ago, and I think you are right; I got my first indication that things were progressing when I got my first numbered reading on nitrates. Thanks, and I hope your day is going well!

 

My nitrates tested at about 30 today (hard to tell as the color was between the color examples). I thought that was a good sign; I had not seen the nitrates at anything but a 0 before this past Sunday. I thought that seeing the nitrates have a reading indicated that the biological material was finally doing it's job! Ammonia was .25 and the nitrites were 0. I don't want to change the water, as the ammonia in my filtered tap water is higher than it is in my aquarium. I need to find a reliable source for info on adding bought Spring Water. I did add about 5 gallons of that last week, and it really helped bring the ammonia levels down. Someone said that there might be other concerns with using the bought water, so I'm still researching it. I will continue to treat every other day with Prime and Stability. The fish are doing well, I'm the one stressing over their habitat; they seem fine with it! LOL
Thanks for the message!

Once your cycle is complete the ammonia in your source water isn't going to be a problem that can't be taken care of with prime and time. Prime will bind it and then your cycle will clear it up.

If I am remembering correctly your source water has 1.0 ammonia. If you do a 50% water change that dilutes it down to .5 Prime will easily take care of that amount. If you only do 25% water changes your original 1.0 will be diluted even more so the amount you will be adding will be negligible.

If it were me I would do a 25% water change to get the nitrates down. They aren't high enough yet to cause a problem for your little guys but lower would be better.

edited: I just re-read and saw that your filtered water only has .5 ammonia....even better and less of a problem. Have you tested your water before it goes through the filter? It is possible that you won't need to use filtered water for your water changes and at just .5 there is no need at all to use spring water once your cycle is complete. Our tanks do need some of the mineral present on most of our tap water. I don't know if filtering it removes the minerals or not but am curious about it.

 

Actually, that guy at PetSmart wasn't as wrong as you may think. Since fish are cold blooded they do not burn calories generating body heat. So they can go a lot longer and with less food than one might think. More people actually have more issues with there fish due to over feeding rather than under feeding. Many members her will fast their fish a day or two every week, claiming it is healthy for them. In fact, while cycling feeding every other day might not be a terrible idea, since more food equals more ammonia being produced.

But with that said, I do feed my fish once a day every day.

 

But with that said, I do feed my fish once a day every day.

Me too I might not have to fight my nitrates as much as I do if I skipped a day a week or just cut back on feeding but I just can't bring myself to deprive them of food even one day a week.

Most of my molly fry are just about grown now and I still feed them at least twice a day. I can put the tip of my finger in their tank and they all come running and start nibbling on my finger. When they do that I have to give them a bite to eat even if I have already fed them twice. I know they just like me cause I feed them but I still enjoy watching them eat.