What is going ON?

Discussion in 'Freshwater Fish Disease' started by poeticinjustices, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. poeticinjustices

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Something is really, really wrong in the ranchu QT.

    Yesterday, Sayuri had a bright red blood spot on her belly like where one of her pelvic fins adjoined. I attributed to breeding injury and was going to get a breeder net this morning to put the male in.

    This morning, the red spot is bigger, the beginning of the fin is red as well. There is also now blood in her left pectoral and a small mark on her back. The bleeding in the fins is not streaking, they look like they're filling with blood. And the spot on her belly in about 1cm in diameter now.

    The only thing I can think this sounds like is septicemia but the spot on her belly looks kind of raw and she's totally fine behaviorally - eating, active, interacting with me. Is it really possible that a fish will have septicemia this severely with no other behavioral signs?

    The only issue that has been ongoing in the QT is a very small nitrite reading. It's less than .25ppm, the result isn't even purple, just a darker blue, and I've been battling it with water changes and Prime.

    I'm going this morning to get another QT to put her in and I guess start medication because I'm not sure what else this could be. I'm just looking to find out if septicemia can really present like this with no other behavioral symptoms? And what would cause her to come down with this when the water quality has been good and I've been managing the nitrite reading?
  2. Tonia

    ToniaWell Known MemberMember

    I truly hope that your goldie is not fighting a battle against septicemia, PI. I've not had to treat this problem myself, but I would definitely start her on a full dose of antibiotics for her tank size and add some salt to the water to help balance her internal fluid levels. From what I've read, triple strength antibiotic foods are also recommended.

    If this is what is wrong with her, I would fight it aggressively because you keep incredibly clean tanks and take amazingly good care of your fish. For her to have developed this disease while in your care means that the pathogen would have to be very strong.

    I am so sorry that you are facing these problems right after a short vacation.
  3. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    I am certain it's septicemia at this point. I can only guess the stress of my leaving is what made her vulnerable.

    I am waiting outside Petco right now to begin another QT. I will dose the tank and feed it to her. I have kanaplex, wish I had Oxonolic acid powder.

    She looks really bad. But her behavior is supremely perfect. She eats and is totally active. I am hoping that's counts for enough that she will be able to fight it with meds. But I got a good look at her and it is everywhere.

    But I am starting to feel a bit like between her and V there is something I am missing here. Jesus. When it rains it pours.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fish Lore Aquarium Fish Forum mobile app

  4. hollie1505

    hollie1505Well Known MemberMember

    Oh @poeticinjustices you poor thing. And poor Sayuri :(

    I have no advice for you but I know she is in good hands. I know you will do everything in your power to recover and protect her and I really do have all my fingers crossed for you.

    I promise you, one day, this will all be a distant memory and you will find that these journeys have made you the fish keeper you are. Unfortunately, the best way to learn is to experience.

    Sending luck and love across the pond.

    Stay positive, stay strong and stay loving.x

  5. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Thank you. It just really feels like I must be doing something catastrophically wrong to have all this happening.

    She is in a 10g QT right now. I feel so terrible separating her. She is acting okay. I medicated the water and fed her medicated food and she ate fine. But I can tell she doesn't like being alone.

    Forget ich, forget fungus and all the other beginners diseases. I get antibiotic resistant tail rot and freaking SEPTICEMIA. Are you kidding me?

    I mean this has to be my fault. It has to be something I am doing wrong that I can fix. But I have no idea what.

    Meanwhile you want to know who is doing great? My pet store goldfish who survived a cycle from you know where. Of course now that I have said that something is going to happen in that tank too.

    What I don't understand is how she could look so awful but act so fine? You'd think freaking blood poisoning would slow her down but it has not.

    God I just hope she pulls through.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fish Lore Aquarium Fish Forum mobile app
  6. hollie1505

    hollie1505Well Known MemberMember

    I disagree.

    I live by the saying "Everything happens for a reason".

    You were meant to own these fish and meant to help them. I honestly believe they were sent to you because someone, somewhere knew you had the heart to take care of them and not give in. That you had it in you to fight for these fish.

    This isn't your fault. Bad things happen. It teaches us to be the people we are today. You are strong and loving and these fish need you. Have faith in your knowledge and trust your instincts. Above all else, do not blame yourself.

    If she is acting fine, you are obviously doing something right. Believe in yourself.

    You are in my thoughts today.x
  7. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Thanks Hollie. It just looks so bad. It seems like it's everywhere. I honestly have no idea how she was still swimming.

    Ugh now i have to maintain an uncycled QT. I mean how do I even do that?

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  8. petaddiction

    petaddictionWell Known MemberMember

    Oh, I'm so sorry. :(
    I can honestly say that I do not believe that you nor your fish deserve all this trouble. I also agree with Holly, though, and live by the saying "Everything happens for a reason". I know you were the one who ended up with these fish because you can take care of them. Someone is watching over you and believed that you could and you will be able to take care of them. Don't even say that you are doing something wrong, causes these diseases. You are the best mommy any of them could ask for. I am so grateful that out of all people they came to you. You will try your best to help them which is all they need.
    I am so truly sorry for all of this, but you will be okay. I promise. A little faith in their recovery can go a long way. I know everything will work out. No matter how long your fishies live, they will have lived the best life anyone could have given them with their circumstances. I believe these fishies have come to you for a reason, and with all your knowledge it will be fine. This experience will only help you grow in this hobby. I know it seems thought right now. But you'll be okay. :)
  9. Micaela13

    Micaela13Well Known MemberMember

    I'm so sorry Poe :( you have been through a lot and it just doesn't seem to end. You take such good care of your animals and still bad things happen. I truely am sorry. But the good pet owner you are I'm sure you will figure it out. Just remember don't stress so much that you go crazy on meds. I don't want you to overwhelm yourself and over do it. Good luck Poe, it looks like you need it <3

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Fish Lore Aquarium Fish Forum mobile app
  10. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Okay everyone, I've just come on really quickly to let you all know where I am at because you have been so wonderful and supportive.

    As you know, I started treatment yesterday in a QT tank. I am treating both in the water column and in food because Sayuri has a lot of wen that makes eating challenging and I want to make sure she gets the medication. Before the day was through, she had developed popeye as well and every single fin was rapidly filling with blood. I do not know how it's possible she has remained active throughout this, but she has.

    This morning, she looks better. The aeromonas ulcer on her back in gone and the large, bright red, solid bloodstain on her belly has become more patchy. I believe the blood in her fins is also receding. Please do not get excited for me yet - she still looks really bad. The popeye is present still and there's still a lot of blood and god knows what kind of damage that has done to her internally. She is fighting on, so am I. I'm hoping improvement will continue.

    Last night, I also started seeing the faintest indication it is happening in Hershey as well and MAYBE Chise but I was not at all sure about her so I started feeding medication to Hershey and Chise. This morning, what I saw yesterday in Hershey appears to be gone. He is aggressively chasing Chise, pecking at her vent and making it red (again), so I'm getting him a mesh breeder basket today. I certainly hope the red vent is just from the pecking, it was last time and he's exhibiting the same behavior, but everyone is on medicated food at this point (food only in the 20g to protect the biofilter, SeaChem states it does not affect the filter bed but V's tank will tell you differently).

    I am doing the absolute best I can. Clean water, good diet, garlic and medication. I swear this is like being trapped in a nightmare I cannot wake up from. Sayuri is just one of the sweetest, most gentle fish (I was so excited to introduce her to Motley) and to watch her go through this is just...awful. Though she's no where near out of the woods yet, there is some improvement here. I keep her right beside where I sit in the living room and last night I slept down here with them. So I'm not at all getting my hopes up, but I'm not giving up either. For whatever reason, she has not shown any real behavioral signs of illness. She does appear a bit stressed in QT alone, seems to be breathing a little rapidly, but as I type this she is also swimming around and looking for food.

    So, that's where it's at right now. No stinking clue how this happened. It has to be connected to my leaving. Maybe she got a microabrasion while in the dark and she was stressed and that made her vulnerable. I don't know. Hopefully she will continue to improve. Please keep your fingers, toes and eyes crossed for her.
  11. hollie1505

    hollie1505Well Known MemberMember

    God bless you poeticinjustices. You really are an incredible lady. You have the luckiest fish in the world, because they have you and I know not many would fight as you are for them.

    I'm glad Sayuri seems to be perking up (TOUCH WOOD!!) and I hope this continues for you both, you deserve some good news. Good on you for being vigilant enough to spot symptoms beginning to appear on Hershey and Chise, I hope you've managed to catch it quick.

    My thoughts are with you as you go through all this awful stuff. There will be a day when this nightmare is over and you can wholly enjoy your fishy friends. Going through all of this with them will make you a better fish keeper even though it is so awful.

    I have all my extremities crossed for you. Wishing you all the luck in the world. Lots of love.xx
  12. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Thank you hollie1505 but unfortunately I spoke too soon.

    As of this afternoon, Hershey is also fully septic. He does not look as bad as Sayuri does but he seems to be handling it much worse. Clamped and bottom sitting. Still eating but when he swims he does so erratically. It looks like he is flashing but not actually rubbing on anything. I know that flashing is a side-effect of the kanamycin and I just hope that this is all that's going on.

    Sayuri's condition remains improved. She still looks bad - popeye, some remaining blood and she looks sort of extra slimy. But there is less blood on her body and in her fins and her will to live is just extraordinary - she's active. My dog keeps checking on her, it makes me cry every time.

    Now - what to do with Chise? I've begun treating in the tank with meds. It seems the biofilter is already impacted but I will be able to manage it with Prime and water changes between doses. All of my buckets arrived today so I have 30g of prepared water on hand at all times. Thank you, Rivieraneo, for recommending a place where I can buy cycled filters when this is all said and done. Chise does not really seem impacted, but I'm not sure. Sometimes I think her pectoral fins look darker and of course the red vent but that already appears to be lessening.

    So what do I do? Do I move Sayuri into the 20g, treat her with Hershey and Chise goes into the 10g alone? I fear that moving Sayuri will stress her and same with Chise. I could move Chise into the 29g with the others but there appears to be a contagious element here and I'm certain I would never recover if I infected my one, healthy tank. She's already been exposed to the medication so there's also that I should probably see it through. Or do I go buy another 10g and filter and put Hershey in that one? I'm lost.

    And I'm just so heartbroken to see them like this. It has to be connected to my leaving and the faint nitrite reading. Chise is the ranchu I picked out but I love all 3 of them as if I chose them personally. And I'm sick to my stomach at the thought of losing them. I wish I could understand WHY this is happening to them and find some way to fix the issue. I hurt for them when I look them.
  13. Prep8611Valued MemberMember

    Do you have any pics of everything going on, not that it will improve anything your doing but may help people with diagnosis in the future.

    Sent from my iPhone using Fish Lore Aquarium Fish Forum
  14. HappyKnitter

    HappyKnitterValued MemberMember

    I would not put anybody into your healthy tank. You treat your new guys with the meds. This would be a lesson to anybody , quarantining your fish is important. This is one lesson I learned the hard way.
  15. hollie1505

    hollie1505Well Known MemberMember

    Keep your chin up girl! You got this!

    Poor little guys, let's hope it's the side effects of the medication. Fingers crossed.

    I would treat them all. They have all been together and been exposed to whatever it is together. I think it's worth treating them all at the same time but I personally, would leave them where they are.

    However, you have to do what you feel is right. Only you can make the decision on how to treat them and in what tank and if you are more comfortable with them having their own tanks, then do it. If you feel they should all be together, do it. You have to take care of yourself too and whatever you can do to put your mind at ease, do.

    Lots of luck.x
  16. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Thanks everyone.

    This morning,Sayuri's improvement is continued. Maybe not as drastic as it was yesterday, but continued nonetheless. Her slime coat looks better, I believe the bloody patches on body and fins are further reduced. Popeye is still present but it MIGHT be less? Like the fluid around the eye is still there but maybe not as puffy. I'm not a 100% sure that isn't just wishful thinking but still she's improved. She remains active and eating. The only thing I haven't noticed is waste in the tank but I did notice on the filter intake this kind of sludgy looking stuff. When V ate the Repashy, it changed the consistency of his poop. My thinking is that it is doing the same for Sayuri.

    Hershey is up off of the bottom, swimming normally. I think I see improvement in the blood but it's harder to tell because he was not as severely impacted as Sayuri. Over the last few days, before this started, I noticed his color changing. He seemed to be lightening all over to almost a yellowish gold rather than bronze. I thought it's normal, and he's still that color now, but now I wonder if it's not connected.

    Chise continues to show no symptoms. Knock on wood she does not.

    I have elected to treat everyone where they are. Sayuri in the 10g and Hershey and Chise in the original 20g. I would like to put them all back together since both tanks have sick fish in them and they are so bonded however doing it this way gives me a greater volume of water for waste dilution. I am currently using TSS at the healthy maintenance dose on the bottle. I don't know if it's helping or not, but I figure the worst it can do is not work.

    As of this morning, everyone is still fighting. Here's hoping it continues.
    Prep8611 - I don't have any especially good photos. The reasons being that 1 - they are still active and 2 - I don't have lights on these tanks. I tried to take a light I had laying around but when I turned it on it spooked them so much so that I had to turn it off immediately. I see your point though, and I will try to get some photos. It does look pretty textbook at this point, though it didn't when Sayuri had the enormous, bright bloody patch on her belly. If you compare to a Google image search of septicemia or popeye, that's pretty much it. But I will try to get some photos so that maybe this experience will help someone else down the line.
  17. Castiel*

    Castiel*Well Known MemberMember

    Sorry to hear about your sick fishies! I always hate it when my fish get sick, I constantly worry about them getting something I cannot treat or don't know how to treat them especially with all the money we invest into our lifestyle! Keep your head up! They WILL get better!
  18. OP

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    Thank you. I am just beyond horrified that this is even happening in my tanks despite my very best efforts to keep everyone safe. I am utterly blown away by it. Two fish with blood poisoning? Of all things. Plus with everything that's been going on in my betta tank I feel like maybe someone to playing a cruel joke or my tap water is just infested with ridiculous levels of pathogenic bacteria.

    Anyway, I got in touch with an aquatic vet. He also said that increasing tank temp and hyper salination of the tank is able to help treat septicemia.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fish Lore Aquarium Fish Forum mobile app
  19. Castiel*

    Castiel*Well Known MemberMember

    Yes, you just gotta keep your head up! They will get better! Remember if you increase the tank temperature make sure you keep a air stone or powerhead in there to keep oxygen levels up for them!

    Sorry to hear your Betta tank is having problems too. Could it be a possible cross contamination of the two tanks? Or do you use separate equipment for your QT tank and your other tanks.
  20. blusshed

    blusshedWell Known MemberMember

    Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to see that you are now battling such a horrible thing with your Goldies, on top of poor V.

    You are so incredibly educated when it comes to fish, and you work extremely hard, it's definitely not you. Just a cloud of bad luck is upon you. I do hope that your cuties pull through for you! It's tough... Especially since fish are more our responsibility to diagnose AND treat, unlike a dog, cat, etc that you can rush to the vet.

    Definitely keeping you in my thoughts through your battles!

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