What caused new teacup stingray's early death?

OK, so I come before everyone humble and wanting to make sure I understand everything that I may have done wrong before I get our next stingray. We got a new stingray... a teacup stingray, which at the moment is only a couple inches wide. It began in a 55 gallon, to be re-homed in the very near future when we get the new tank setup. Unfortunately, it died only 5 days after taking it home, but because this wasn't put into a dedicated stingray tank, or by itself, I have several things I suspect/question.

Environment:
* The tank had an angel, a couple discus, 3 rams, a couple corys, and a couple hillstream loaches.
* Water parameters were otherwise normal... ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=20-30, and I had done a typical weekly 10-15% water change just this Sunday.
* substrate was a fine sand-like substrate (not actual aquarium or pool filter sand)
* water had a low freshwater salt content
* decorations were some fake plants and fake driftwood...though I removed most of the driftwood for him to open up the floor space. Left only one piece on either end of the tank.

Suspected problems:
1. The LFS said he was slow to eat when they first got him, but did eat eventually -- cleared the bottom of their tank of bloodworms. Looks like he didnt eat a thing the 5 days since I had him. Wouldnt eat other dried shrimp pellets I fed the other fish, frozen mysis shrimp, or frozen bloodworms. I also bought 2 small feeder minnows and a few ghost shrimp to try. He seemed to ignore them. Last night, the night before he died, I fed bloodworms and it appeared the other fish took them all, though he MIGHT have eaten one or two while I was watching (but I couldnt tell for sure)...

2. The LFS tested my water for salt and the salt level was lower than what they said was the max rays could tolerate, but I still wonder if it still might have been sensitive.

3. Yesterday before the ray died Ifound one of my hillstream loaches dead. Today, the day he died, the other hillstream was dead. All fish looked at the ray, but mostly left him alone except for the hillstream loaches. One of them at least I saw a few times charge the ray and land on his head/disc. Didnt happen all the time... only saw it a couple times, but wondering if they got in a spat and the ray stung him? While also stressing the ray out or harming him if they sucked on him?

4. When I removed the ray from the tank I noticed he had blood coming from his bottom area where the tail meets the disc. Not sure if that was blood loss due to his death/illness, or if another fish picked at him after he died, etc.

We are not going to get another ray in this tank, but will plan to just get a new tank for them, but just trying to figure out what on my environmetn went wrong so we don't make the same mistake twice...

I really think the dead hillstreams is very suspicious but I couldnt see anything indicating how they died..and I know new stingrays aren't the easiest of aquarium pets to deal with....

Any ideas/input, would be greatly appreciated....
thanks!!!!

 

BDpups might be able to help

 

kcthefishman

How long did the store that you got it from have it? Did you actually see it eat there? Or did they just tell you it did?

They are also extremely sensitive to water parameters. Putting it in a small tank with other fish is a not a good idea. A 55 is too small for a juvI in a bare bottom by itself in my opinion. Any uneaten food and waste will cause the nitrate to rise. Unless you get the waste out almost immediately, it's not good for the ray. This is why even small ones like reticulated rays need to be kept in very large tanks.

Hillstreams need to be kept in special tanks. If they don't have cool water with lots of oxygen and a very fast flow, think white water rapids, then they will not last long. The hillstream dying could have fouled the water and killed the ray.

There is also no reason to have any salt in the tank with anything you have. Again, rays are sensitive.

I hope I don't sound like I'm being a jerk or coming down on you. It's just not many people know how hard reticulated stingrays are to keep. They are not a beginner ray at all. They are difficult to feed, and extremely sensitive. Even though they are fairly small for fresh water rays, they need to be kept in no smaller than a 8' x 30" tank.

In the future, if you want to dedicate yourself to keeping rays, get a 8' x 3' tank and find a motoro. They are not super sensitive, and will eat anything. These are what you should start with. An easy beginner ray. If this is not something you can do, then rays aren't something you should keep.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been keeping fish?

 

Thanks.. no I appreciate the feedback. They said this type of ray could be kept in a 75 gal tank, but ideally higher. He told me that not all 'teacup' reticulated ray species were the same and for the size this one would reach that should be fine. I know that's not the common thinking about the "teacup" rays in general based on what I have seen online...

To answer your questions:
* No, I didnt see it eat... he told me it ate the night before. Not to sound naive, but I trust him at this point -- I would be SHOCKED to no end if he lied. And he did tell me that this is the first time he carried a ray at his store...but he had experience with them. The average pet store doesn't ask or care what you're doing with what you buy...this man wants to know all about things like that when you do. I can see this is a passion of his... Long ago I stopped going to the petsmarts and petcos except for some very few supplies I can't get at the LFS (or dog food).

* He had the ray for no more than a week before I got it from them

* I have been keeping fish for just a few months now...very green. I went from a 5 gallon first tank total rookie (bought for my son),and knowing NOTHING, to a 55 gallon, and learning things like this every day.

I am convinced by what you said that regardless of the size of the current tank as a juvenile, I think this ray died because of nitrates, and that was because of the other fish, waste etc. A week ago or so I had also turned up the substrate a lot while moving decorations, and I had read that might be a problem for some fish, with some substrates? Or maybe that was a saltwater issue? IDK None of the other fish had a problem then when the water was clouded...but again, maybe it was a matter of time...

I still think the death of my hillstreams AT THIS TIME seems very strangely coincidental...but I realize they may have been on borrowed time, since the current I had in the tank was the 2 AC70 filters only, and I was keeping the temp at around 80+ for the discus.... and if the rays are that sensitive... it could have been the issue. I didnt allow the fish to stay in the tank long.... I removed them the day they died, at least.

thanks for your advice.. very much appreciated.. and no, an 8'x3' would not be something I could put anywhere... so as disappointing as that would be, especially for my wife, then I guess that's the deal if that's the only way to ensure survival. I would think something smaller, but still high enough gallon volume would suffice? I have read of 125-150g being an acceptable size... a 6' (x18" or 24") tank is what we were considering...

 

I would think something smaller, but still high enough gallon volume would suffice? I have read of 125-150g being an acceptable size... a 6' (x18" or 24") tank is what we were considering...

A 125 or 180 just doesn't give one enough space for the life of the ray. I've kept them for quite a few years and those work for temporary homes, but not permanent.

I always suggest to buy the biggest tank you have room for and can afford. Then stock it with fish that will fit in it for life.

 

Whenever I get fish from a lfs and it dies in my tank it's usually a ph issue. Many fish can't adjust to changes in ph and die within a week. Not sure if that's your issue but your water params look good. On an expensive fish like a ray let the store keep them for a few weeks before you buy. Let them take the risks, not you.

 

@

PH problems in fish are usually when you are taking a fish from high PH and putting it in water with low PH. This does not happen very often.

The problem with this ray probably had more to do with it being in too small of tank, there being dead fish in the tank with it, so the water parameters were not good,and it not eating.

 

bdpups, " ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=20-30, and I had done a typical weekly 10-15% water change just this Sunday." What water params are bad? Also a tank being too small won't cause an immediate death, usually fish will suffer a slow death if the tank doesn't suite them or their not eating.. A quick death is usually sickness or bad water params.

 

Thanks again for the additional input...
BDpups I have an update on this....not that this necessarily sheds too much more light, but it may. My tank just went through an epidemic of sorts apparently. As of my original post I lost only 2 hillstream loaches. Since then my tank has lost more fish...the 3 blue rams and the cory cats. I also noticed I somehow forgot to mention my pictus catfish in my original post (not sure how I forgot him!). The pictus is still alive and well. My bottom feeder stocking was too heavy, as the pictus could eat as much as the corys and rams combined, so now that's reduced.

Again the water parameters are about the same...changing about 20% water the last few weeks. I had brought the dead ray to my LFS guy to look at, and then after telling him about the dying fish, he said now he's concerned the ray brought something in (parasites). Nothing external, or visible like ICH, but maybe internal. He usually keeps fish for a week with salt in the water to remove parasites, but with rays you can't do that. I have since bumped up the level of salt in my water again, now that the ray is gone, for the anti-parasite treatment and other benefits.

What I am hoping and PRAYING is that my 2 snakeskin discus stay well...and I am concerned because I know they are susceptible to disease/parasites like rams are. The discus are my "prize" fish, and are what I actually want to become the main attraction for this tank (I plan to keep the water temp and parameters most suitable to discus, and add a few more variety to complete the tank 'shoal'.

 

bdpups, " ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=20-30, and I had done a typical weekly 10-15% water change just this Sunday." What water params are bad? Also a tank being too small won't cause an immediate death, usually fish will suffer a slow death if the tank doesn't suite them or their not eating.. A quick death is usually sickness or bad water params.

The nitrate is the problem. Reticulated stingrays are not your average fish. And being in a confined space will stress them and will very well cause a quick death. And there was dead fish in the tank. Causing more water parameter issues.And it was not eating.