Water quality issues.....Maybe

I need a little help and ideas.

A month ago, I got my Rummies, and went through them like water. Ended up with only 4 living out of a total of 10 purchased. I still have the 4, and have not been able to get more.

So I moved on to my next purchase of cardinals. I got 6, one died got another to replace it, and since Wed last week, I'm down to the last 2, and one of the two is almost dead. Two of the fishes I got developed cloudy eye/fungus over the eye. I started treatment of the entire tank with Kanaplex, and lost them anyways. The one dieing now shows no outward sign of why. Color us good, no fungus I can see. Only symptoms I see was refused food, rapid breathing, and now erratic swimming. It even stopped swimming with the other cardinal.

Now here is the situation. No matter what fish I introduced to the tank, I go through this cycle of death. I'm getting so frustrated, that I'm about to pull the plug. I went through this with guppies, the Rummies, and now the Cardinals. All fish but one guppy was bought at the same location, and I keep getting "Our fish are doing fine".

So I got to be missing something and need help finding it. My peramaters, stocking, etc is in my bio. The only thing not listed is my kh is 7dKH, and GH is 9dGH. This is the 29 gallon fish tank.

Please help me find the solution to this never ending cycle of death.

Thanks.

 

I'm not sure if this is right but on your profile it says your nitrates are 0, this would indicate that you are not cycled.

 

I use Matrix, which causes my nitrates to be 0

 

I use Matrix, which causes my nitrates to be 0

Don't use matrix. At least at this point.

You obviously want to see nitrates in the tank with 0 ammo and nitrites to ensure it's cycled.

IMO it should only be used if you have nitrates in your tap water. Scheduled water changes will keep the nitrate level where it needs to be.

 

May I ask what matrix is for? I am unfamiliar with it.

Could it also be a possibility that something contaminated your tanks's water somehow.

 

My tap water is crazy. Right now it's running almost 1ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 nitrate. Last month was .25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and almost 20 nitrate. I have to use Matrix. Ammonia and nitrite is cycled out in under 12 hours.

 

That's understandable then, but you still shouldn't be seeing 0 nitrates. Even with matrix you should be seeing something.

Can you test the water for ammo/nitrites right now?

 

Give results in 10.

 

Make sure you let the test tubes sit for a good 5 minutes after shaking before reading.

 

Before you ask, yes I pound the nitrate bottle #2 on the heal of my hand for 45 seconds and shake the test tube for over a minute. I have timers set.



My log sheet since mid may

 

It seems fine, I just don't like that nitrate reading. If you've got fish in, you've got ammo, and I see none - so it's being broken down. I just like that see those nitrates to be sure.

Can I see a picture of the tank by any chance?

List all medications used, filter media used, carbon -- anything you can.

 

Cardinal that is not doing well is in the Betta trap in the tank.

Filter is Marineland 280, with a month old cartridge and matrix is the media box. Carbon is out due to Kanaplex in tank. Bio wheel running as well. Substrate is pool filter sand and aragonite sand mixed due to kh issues. 2 big pieces of driftwood, a medium piece, and a bunch of small pieces. Light up air disk to aerate. Meds are Prime, Alkaline Buffer (due to kh issues), Kanaplex due to the fungus I saw on some of the Cardinals before they died. Ferts is Flourish twice a week, and Excel 4 times a week. Nothing else is added to the tanks.

Oh and water change and vacuuming is done on Sundays.

Stumped you too eh? I've been stumped my self, that's why I'm about to pull the plug on it.

 

I'm sure the problem arose before you added kanaplex, but it's always best to medicate in a QT tank. Some fish do not respond well to medications in the water.

What exactly are the issues with you KH and GH?

Messing with the pH or a swing in pH could be causing all the issues you're seeing.

Straight out of the tap you've got reading fairly consistent with what I'm seeing in the tank, despite you adding buffering products.

Try this - remove 90 percent of the water - remove the matrix. Add new carbon to get rid of the existing kanaplex. Does your water conditioner to detoxify any heavy metals and chloramines. Do not add anything to the water in terms of buffering capacity - let the pH settle to where it's going to be - usually after about 24 hours. Then test kH, gH, pH. If your kH is low, you can add a natural carbonate source like cuttlebone (cheap and extremely effective). Stay away from buffering products.

 

If you look at the top of the log you will see my kh is less then 17ppm right now. I use the buffer to stabilize it. The PH from the tap is 9.7, after aeration it drops is 7.8. I use only 1/2 teaspoon for my 5 gallon water change bucket to stabilize it to 80ppm, then let the aragonite sand do its job. The KH fluctuations is from less then 17 to 50 when I'm super lucky. GH is fluctuating too between 100 and 225 depending on season.

My water conditioner is Prime.

 

So you're having serious kH issues then. Even 80ppm is low and I guarantee the pH is swinging because of it. Add cuttlebone to the filter (a whole piece).

 

Like I stated before, I've been having problems with new fish introduction since the beginning. I went through 11 guppies and only got 3 to live. Went through 8 Rummies, and got only 4 to live, and now 7 cardinals, and 1 is doing good, the second is almost dead, and lost the rest. I can't seem to find what it is in my water that is causing this death cycle.

Water changes do not effect any of the existing fish in the tank.

I do 3 hour drip acclimation and then float the bag to make sure temp is the same.

 

As I said, it's a kH issue. I've tried to give you all the advice I can, whether you choose to take it or not is entirely up to you. At this point you don't seem to have much to lose.

 

But the pH and kh are stable with the aragonite sand in the tank, and pH does slowly increase. It's up to 8.0 now from 7.8 on Saturday. Kh is up from 80ppm to 125.

 

Is this the tank that previously was for salt water? Sorry to hear this tank is giving you such issues. When in doubt CindiL who is also already familiar with your water/kH issues.

 

Yeah it is the salt tank, but I had to buy a new tank, but using the old filter and heater.

Have been talking with CindI in PM's, and I don't think she even knows what's going on. She did say she does not think it's my tank, but why are the fish still alive at the shop but die in my tank?

I can't find anything in all my test, and checking out my water treatment plants. I'm looking everywhere I can and running out of ideas, that is why I'm asking on here. I believe I'm missing something.

 

Try this - remove 90 percent of the water - remove the matrix. Add new carbon to get rid of the existing kanaplex. Does your water conditioner to detoxify any heavy metals and chloramines. Do not add anything to the water in terms of buffering capacity - let the pH settle to where it's going to be - usually after about 24 hours. Then test kH, gH, pH. If your kH is low, you can add a natural carbonate source like cuttlebone (cheap and extremely effective). Stay away from buffering products.

Hi, We have worked through her issues in the past. She uses aragonite sand to buffer her water along with Seachem Alkaline buffer at water change time. There is nothing wrong with this product as it is just carbonate/bicarbonates and helps hold her ph with her water change. She has a lot of O2 in her tap water which is why her ph falls initially.

Also, regarding Matrix and the great thing about matrix is it can actually give you nitrates of 0. Some of us have been experimenting with this over in this thread:
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/review-of-nitrate-reducers.217267/. My nitrates are under 5 now or close to 0 while using it also.
Dragones5150918 nothing is apparent to me still and I'm sorry you've had these issues. Have you tried purchasing from another store?

If this was my tank, I'd probably try a different water source to rule out my own and to see if there is something in my water I cannot test. The only true way to find out if there is something in your water supply that prime is not taking care of (and there could be) would be to use a different water supply. Setup a QT tank with bottled spring water, check to make sure GH and KH are sufficient, buffer if necessary and see how fish from the same stock/store do in the bottled water. Put some in your main tank and some in the QT tank.

I don't know if you want to go through that or not but if they do ok in spring water then it might be worth your while to add on a filtration system for the tap you are using. I can't recall if you had a good filtration unit on the faucet? like a 5 in 1 that would remove the majority of toxins.

We do only test for the obvious but that doesn't mean there couldn't be something else.

 

Dragones5150918 nothing is apparent to me still and I'm sorry you've had these issues. Have you tried purchasing from another store?

If this was my tank, I'd probably try a different water source to rule out my own and to see if there is something in my water I cannot test. The only true way to find out if there is something in your water supply that prime is not taking care of (and there could be) would be to use a different water supply. Setup a QT tank with bottled spring water, check to make sure GH and KH are sufficient, buffer if necessary and see how fish from the same stock/store do in the bottled water. Put some in your main tank and some in the QT tank.

I don't know if you want to go through that or not but if they do ok in spring water then it might be worth your while to add on a filtration system for the tap you are using. I can't recall if you had a good filtration unit on the faucet? like a 5 in 1 that would remove the majority of toxins.

We do only test for the obvious but that doesn't mean there couldn't be something else.

The difference between my tank and the shops is they use RO/DI water in their system and the PH is 6.4, 0 nitrite and ammonia and 5 nitrate. I don't think I've tested their KH and GH. They did tell me the reason why they went to RO water was because the pH issues.

After helping Nan with her problem, I checked out my plants information on water quality, and I see nothing in those that can explain what is going on. That's where I found our city water PH is between 9.6 to 10.2. It just amazes me I loose 2.0 or more after aeration. My nitrate even matches their reports (pre Matrix in tank but when I test the tap they match). But unlike Nan, at water change it does not effect the fish. Not even the Bettas in the 1 gallon or the 2.5 gallon. So what ever it is in my tank, prime and my filter is not catching, and its either built up to toxic levels for fish, or I just keep getting bad fish since I go through this only at introduction of new fish.

I loose a fish a day until one or two make it to the end. The routine goes, and symptoms are hidding, not eating, rapid breathing, then about 6 hours later erratic swimming, and by the 24 hour mark or less death. Others are eating, but shortly after one dies another starts the same thing, until I go through my new stock. When I'm lucky, one or two make it to the end....Though it does not appear the cardinals are going to be that lucky. Just lost #6 this morning and down to 1 cardinal. Again no outward sign as to why. Did the same thing. Broke away from the school and went into hidding and stopped eating, and noticed it was breathing hard. Started the erratic swimming yesterday, and this morning dead. Yet 2 days ago it was eating and swimming just fine.

This is why I keep asking for help on this. I went through this with the guppies until only 3 made it. Went through this with the Rummies, until 4 made it, and now it's happening with the cardinals. All fish display the exact same pattern. When I went through the guppies it was during cycle and that's when I noticed international parasites and stopped my cycle and treated them. But it was still the exact same thing. One would break away go into hidding with rapid breathing, start swimming erratically, then die. But by the time I found the internal parasites, I all ready lost 2 fish. Oh, and I kept replacing the dead fish, so that's why the numbers don't add up sometimes.

About trying someplace else, I'm doing that. I just put an order in to a local box store, and next week I call to see if they are getting them. I'll be replacing what I've lost, and if it happens with their fish, I'll know for sure it's my tank, and the hunt will continue to find my nemesis.

In the mean time I'm asking for help to see if there is something I'm missing when it comes to this death trap I've created.

 

So you're not filtering your water then? is that correct? I know you were interested in the link I sent you for a counter top 5 stage filtration system awhile back.

I've been meaning to find her thread again and ask her if using her filtered water stopped her issues. Last I remember she was going to start over with the filtered water. Do you know how that went?

I know all the stores in my area use straight tap water except for rams. The problem with a store using RO water is it will be vastly different from your own, not only in terms of ph but also GH which could cause osmotic shock issues as well.

Honestly I would try it in this order:
Pick up a few fish from your local big box store today (I've had very few fish deaths ever from my local Petsmart but I know that each store is different). I'm sure they use tap water but you can ask them and double check the numbers. I would be very surprised if they were using RO in a system that size....

If they still die then do as I first suggested and setup a QT tank with spring or even RO water since you have the capability of re-mineralizing it with alkaline buffer. Do you have a calcium/magnesium addition like Replenish to add a little and get the GH up to what the fish you are adding would require. If you need help with that let me know since I use RO in my main aquarium.

 

No, I have not gotten the filtering system yet. Been busy with this death trap, kids, and work.

As for Nan's thread here it is.



I have not talked to her since.

Problem is, Petco doesn't have any fish I want to stock my tank with. This one has been having problems getting their fish order, so they hardly have anything. Not even guppies. They do have glo fish though. I was going to wait til this weekend to see if they got any stock in. If they did and have guppies, I'll grab one up. I really don't want to buy something I'm not planning on keeping.

Osmotic Shock eh? Now that is something I didn't think of. Isn't the symptoms the same as ammonia shock, but takes longer to see the symptoms? Or PH shock? And as the cells break down because of a drastic difference, cause one death a day?

 

Ok, thanks. Osmotic shock would look a lot like ph shock and the descriptions you've describe of their symptoms. I've read that what people often attribute to ph shock is actually osmotic shock from vastly different GH/KH (TDS) parameters between one aquarium and another. I think who makes it and who doesn't really comes down to their individual strengths, how much of a toll the original transfer to RO was and then back out of it. Most breeders do not use nor can afford to use and mineralize RO water for mass breeding. Just going into his water would make them weaker if then turned around and put back in normal water. And who knows what their original water was.....you see what I'm getting at. I guess without testing his water its all conjecture but a point I think worth thinking about. This is why it might be useful to try "regular" fish in "regular" water before trying other things that will take more time and effort

 

What do you suggest? They have no Cory catfish or GBR , so that is why I was going to wait til sat to see if I can get a guppy. If you remember, I did get a guppy from Petco and it went into my tank just fine with out problems in April, while I kept going through guppies from my shop with the RO water.

I was thinking the same thing now. Going from tap to transit water to RO to my tank. I think you might be right.

So I've been reading and a lot of stuff says use salt to ease the osmotic pressure on their system. What do you think about that? I'm just thinking right now, because if I have to use my original fish source to finish stocking, how I'm going to get past this problem.

I'm actually very interested in seeing what happens with the next guppy, unless you think one glo light won't be a problem solo in my tank.

 

I think if they're not salt sensitive fish, that salt can help ease osmotic pressure. A small amount, 1 level tbsp per 6 gallon would be .05%. Treatment for illness usually is from .1%-.3% so you can see this is a small amount, one I often recommend for betta's too if their fins need help in healing or for cuts/wounds.

You probably shouldn't get one glo light, you'd need to get a few at least to start out with.

I guess the first thing would be to figure out what his exact water parameters are coming out of those tanks. Is he re-mineralizing or is the Gh and Kh near 0? Its possible he just buffers and doesn't replenish the salts (GH).

Once you figure that out and you want to keep purchasing through him then you can figure out the best way to acclimate them, maybe starting them in similar water to his and then slowly, each day taking out 20-25% of his water and adding in yours. You'd have to do this in a separate QT tank (obviously) and would have to purchase RO water and go from there.

Seems like a pain though, if you can find another store you don't have to go through that with.

 

I'll pop over there in a bit. It's really hot here and I've been out in it all afternoon. I'll grab a sample from their tank and test it at home and let you know.

Fish I might have to get there are the next ones on my stock list. The sterbaI and gbr, not sure if I can get them from Petco or not. Can they handle a small salt treatment? Plus the Rummies and Cardinals? Since I got no place for a qt, I'm limited on doing everything in my main tank....unless I use the small 1 gallon hex I got....and 6 sterbaI won't make it in that.

I'll post my findings on the tank sample I will get.

 

Do you have room for a small 5 gallon tank? You could QT in that. I have used that amount of salt and up to .1% with no issues with both my Sterbai's and my Rams who would be the more sensitive of the bunch. It has never seemed to bother my tetra's either.

Just remember salt can only be removed via water changes. I usually mix it up with tank water then every 15 minutes or so pour a little in until it's all in after about an hour.

 

The moment you have been waiting for! Drum roll please..........



Kh changed on the first drop. Not yellow, but light lime green. Mine is 7dkh. GH is 7dgh. So my GH is 9dgh in the tank, so yes a bit harder water in that....but not a huge swing to cause problems that I know of.

What shocks me more is the nitrate! OMG!

So I'm back to square one. Grrrrr

 

What is their ph? 6.4? And yours is 7.8-8.0? That by itself is a HUGE difference. Also, those nitrates! Ouch!! going from high to low nitrates has been known to cause deaths also. And don't forget KH is calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate etc. I bet there is a large difference in the total TDS between the tanks.
All around the water is vastly different then yours.

Seems like you would need a longer acclimation time between their water and yours. More like 24 hours. You could use a bucket with heater and air stone if you don't have room for a small 5 gallon tank.

I'd still get some fish from petco if they have any that you want to keep. Ask them if they are using the local tap water too and see how they do.

 

Yeah, I see very little choice in this. If Petco fish do well I guess I'm just going to have to go there. I just wish I can get my hands on the shipping water. I know the ammonia will be high, but if their peramaters are close to mine, and they stop plunking the fish I order into their tanks, I'm sure the fish will make it.

I kind of have room for a 5 gallon but my husband cut me off on buying tanks until I use the 2 or 3 10 gallon tanks I have in the basement, and he knows I don't have any place to put them, so he caught me good. I do have 2 3 gallon buckets with lids, so I can use those for a short term qt, but no way to put a HOB filter on it. I do have an old sponge filter I use to use for my brine hatchery, do you think if I cleaned that up and run it in my 29 gallon til it's full of bb I can use it? Would the difference between the two waters effect the bb on the sponge? Or can I wrap the filter floss in my HOB that I've been seeding for a friend's tank, if I wrapped it around the sponge, will that be enough to keep the water during the 24 hour acclimation?

Sheesh, way to many variables here right now.

So this weekend I'll be going to Petco for a guppy and see if they were able to order the Cardinals and Rummies. And I guess I'll worry about the bucket idea later until I know more.

Thanks Cindi, you are the master guru on this junk!

 

So ALL their tanks are RO? We know they use some salts to increase their GH, too bad they don't use a buffer to get the ph and kh up. Its curious they don't buffer their water, I wonder if they run into problems also. I doubt you're the only one unless the majority of people in your area are using RO because of the tap issues.

You can get a rectangle 5 gallon tank for about $10-15 bucks. I bought one not long ago and put it on my office desk where I now have a bunch of shrimp and MTS. I have tons of babies, I love watching them throughout the day. I lost most of the adults over a few weeks I bought on-line but now have about 30 babies they left me. I counted in both yellow and red that are all doing well. I have a empty 10 gallon and a 20 gallon and have given away a lot of others over the last few years! My husbands given up on me lol!! Now my pond is coming today, can't wait to get it all together and get my goldfish out of the 30 gallon bin I have outside on the patio.

I think you could definitely use the sponge. Just leave it in your tank all the time and then when you get some new fish just plop it in there. They'll have a very small bio-load so even after a few days I would think would be sufficient the first time around.

The BB differences you asked about are interesting to me. I have found in taking a sponge out of my RO but re-mineralized inside aquarium and putting it outside in my hard well water, quite a temperature difference, .5 ph difference that the nitrosonomas did its job immediately and I've had 0 ammonia out there. The nitrospira I think not only multiply slower but are more sensitive in general and I've been reading around .25 for the last 10 days. Yesterday it got up to .40 so I did a 50% water change, which got it to .20 and put in about 1/3rd bottle of stability. This morning its down to .10. You may see nothing if you have them in there a week. You'll have to let me know, I'm curious.

I do think you can wrap the floss around the sponge and put it right in. When I started my shrimp tank and had my betta then I just dropped an old piece of sponge into the tank (it wouldn't fit into the filter) and that was enough.

There are a lot of variable but you think logically and just rule out one thing at a time starting with the easiest. Hopefully it will just be the easiest. Remember even when you buy fish from petco or petsmart you might lose one out of a new batch with no fault of your own so make sure to give it a good try with enough fish (over time). Sometimes it helps just to have people to bounce your ideas off of

Make sure to test Petco's water also I buy a lot of my fish from petsmart and another local store and they both use tap water but I recently tested the petsmart water I purchased some guppies in and found out they are using softened water! Their GH was 0 I was pretty shocked. I'm sure it makes tank maintenance much easier for them but I did a slower acclimation when I saw that.

 

So, this has been bugging me, so I ran to Petco to talk to their fish guy. Well, he of course didn't have all the answers to my questions, but he did tell me they are on a water filtering system. Not an RO/DI, just regular one for their tanks. He couldn't even tell me what the tank system peramaters were. Well sigh on that. So I looked at the fish and found they had guppies and decided to go ahead and get 4. Unfortunately once I'm fully stocked, those 4 will put me in over stock, but I figured they will die anyways in this death trap. Sad news though. One died in transit. Petco is 20 minutes from my place and with this heat we are having, my AC don't work well. So anyways, I put the 3 guppies to float and pulled out my test kits and here is the results. Drum roll please.........



Almost a mirror of my tank, so out comes the GH and KH tester. The KH from that system is 4dKH and GH is 6dGH. Mine is 7dKH and 9dGH. I could almost just drop them in if it wasn't for the GH and KH.

What do you think @CindiL? Think the difference in GH and KH is going to continue this death trap?

 

No, that is a small difference and the ph is very close and their nitrates look ok. I think if they do alright, that would lean towards the RO water at the other pet store being too different from your own. If they die, then I'd consider a 5 stage filter to remove "most" toxins. They do a good job.

Hope it goes well!

 

Well heck! Last night I put them in the tank after an hour and a half acclimation, and left the tank alone. I turned on the moon light (which is just a blue light bar) and all three mouths on the guppies lit up like a Christmas Trees. All three have mouth fungus. 2 have a really bad case of it, and one has a slight case of it. I thought "Thank goodness I have Kanaplex running in my tank all ready" and added another dose because I was all ready filtering it out with carbon.

This morning I wake up, and one of the two with a bad case of the mouth fungus is dead, the other two is skimming the top of the tank. No signs of rapid breathing, or any of the other signs I normally see when I introduce new fish. Just the usual problems I see with a bacterial/fungal problems.

So now what? How can I say this isn't osmotic shock or mouth rot affecting them? Granted the symptoms are different between the two, no rapid breathing, hidding, or erratic swimming. They are cruising the top with their mouth at the water line, swimming fine, but since it's not feeding time, I can't say they have eaten or not. I doubt they will at this point. They don't even look stressed, just sick, where the other fish I introduce always looks stressed out.

This is so annoying.

Scratch that. Now all 4 are dead. Grrrrrrrrrrr

 

I would immediately return them, you're right you cannot determine what is what in this case because clearly they came to you sick already. Sorry :console:

 

Well, I took them back and doubled checked the tank, and sure enough, they all have mouth rot. I pointed it out and he was shocked they all had it. I guess they don't inspect their tanks as deep as they thought the did, because I checked other fish on the same system and found fin rot too and lots of flashing. So their system is quarantined.

Well, because my Rummies and Cardinals are suppose to come in next week, I couldn't delay, so I grabbed 3 golden panda mollies in exchange for guppies. The guy assured me that I can bring them back any time in the next 30 days. I see no fungus or sores on the 3 males, and they are demanding to be let out, but they have to go through the acclimation because the KH and GH are still different. I hope I have not made a huge mistake in getting these guys, but hopefully everyone will behave for a week. I have my Betta trap back in the tank just encased.

 

Well, good news. All 3 mollies are still alive and kicking. By now I would have one dead, but so far only one is hidding. Though I have to admit he's been in hidding since release, and he did come out and eat with the other 2 for a short time......Then my phone rang and I moved and he's been in hidding since. So this is pure stress. I've been thinking about adding a little salt to ease his stress, then remembered why he's in my tank in the first place. Adding salt would effect any signs of osmotic shock. So I hope this guy can get passed the stress soon. The other two look great! No rapid breathing or erratic behavior showing so far.

Not going to count my chickens before they hatch though.

 

That is good news! I love mollies they can be total pigs though and used to shove my cories out of the way (and other fish). I finally started dropping food throughout the tank figuring they couldn't be everywhere at once.