Volume/stocking/cycle questions while my 28g is cycling...

Hello! I moved this from the Beginner forum after no replies.

I have jumped from a fairly primitive low-tech planted 5 gallon to a 28g with improved substrate, more plants, better lighting, without CO2. While I'm waiting for the tank to cycle I have some questions.

28g bow front
60lb eco complete substrate (3 bags)
9lb rock hardscape (1 gallon volume)
driftwood (don't remember checking the volume displacement)
plastic egg crate (lighting grid) structure for hills
moderately planted, but waiting for more plants...will be heavily planted

Dosed Seachem Stability, but I know it won't do any good without a source of ammonia.

When I added water (3 gallon increments) I might have lost count; but I think I reached 20 gallons of water. This included an estimated 1 gallon total for the water in the 3 eco complete bags. I can't seem to find what the volume of 20lb eco complete is. Is it really possible that I lost 8 gallons of volume to my hardscape and substrate?

When keeping my stocking numbers in check, do I use the overall tank volume as a guide, or the actual amount of water in the tank?

I used only 2 gallons of water from my established 5 gallon tank, hoping to carry over something beneficial; but it was ONLY 2 gallons. I have a pre-filter sponge in the old tank I considered moving into the new one simply to establish the bacteria, but I don't currently have an ammonia source for cycling (one betta from the 5 gallon isn't going to cut it). I have not yet put the filter sponge into the new tank. I plan to pick up some pure ammonia from the hardware store tomorrow.

The tank has been up and filter running for about 30 hours. Do I reach a point when it becomes too late to add ammonia to cycle?

When I get the ammonia, how do I calculate how much to add? Tank volume or water volume?

How often do I add more ammonia, and for how long?

I was planning to wait until after Labor Day to add fish/inverts because there won't be anyone to maintain and check on the new tank over the long weekend. However, if I stop adding ammonia for the long weekend, will the cycle stall? Am I better off adding fish before the weekend, when I can't check on them? Or having someone come in and drop ammonia in the uninhabited tank?

When I do get to the point of stocking the tank, how does this sound:
12-15 rummy nose tetras
15 RCS
5 Amano shrimp
maybe a handful of CRS
2 mystery snails
2 nerite snails

If I reduce the tetras, could I add a couple BosemanI Rainbows? Or perhaps I'd be better off with dwarf rainbows because they are smaller?

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for the help!

 

Bump. I moved this here, but mods can move it wherever it's most appropriate. Thanks.

 

HI
this one got missed somehow.
I'll try and answer the questions for you.

So yeah, its possible you only have 20 gallon volume of water now. Most tanks are smaller in volume then their name suggests except for the 30 and 40 gallon breeders which actually are large.

Nope, its never too late to add in your ammonia so you can do that this week. You'll want to calculate it by water volume. Only dose it up to 2.0. Are you going to use a bacterial additive to jump start it or move your sponge filter? Will your betta be left with another filter if you take it?

You wait for the ammonia to drop to 0-.25 before adding more. By that time you should be seeing nitrites and/or nitrates too. Re-dose to 2.0. You are officially cycled when you dose ammonia and 24 hours later both ammonia and nitrites are 0. A "normal" cycle can take anywhere from 4-10 weeks but if you use a bacterial additive you can do it in about 2-3 weeks.

Your cycle won't faill over three days, just dose the ammonia before you go away.

I think your stock looks good but I'm not a stocking expert like others. I think I'd forego the amano shrimp though as they will eat a lot of the food you intend for the cherries and the cherries will multiply rapidly as it is

 

Thank you for the response! I was starting to think I really can't find the right place to post this.

I can probably move either the filter media OR the prefilter sponge from the betta tank, right? The betta tank has both at the moment. I also have Stability. Does it help to use BOTH the seeded media and bottled bacteria, Or does that matter?

How do I find out how much ammonia to use? If I dose a "little bit," how long do I need to let it flow before a test will show the accurate amount? Do I just keep adding/testing until it gets to the right number? Are we talking a few drops, or a teaspoon+?

I didn't realize the amanos would overshadow the RCS. I figured with heavy plants there would always be something for everyone, so I'll have to rethink that one.

 

Here is a dosing calculator, I came up with about 1/3rd of a tsp if the ammonia is a 10% solution.
https://www.fishlore.com/ConversionCalculator.htm#form20a


Oh, I see what you mean. I would just take the prefilter sponge and also use stability. I usually tell people to use 1/3rd of the bottle every other day for a week until gone when using stability in a fishless cycle with ammonia. You could even put the whole thing in at once but I kind of like adding a bit more every couple of days.
el337 or TexasDomer are usually around and can give their opinions on your stocking

 

Thanks! I hope I figured out the ammonia correctly. I couldn't see a solution % on the bottle, so I just siphoned 2 gallons from the tank, added 4 drops at a time to figure out how much would get me to 2.0 (it took 1mL). Then I just added 1mL for every 2 gallons left in the tank, so 9 mL for the remaining 18 gal in the tank. I'll test it again once I turn the filter back on. That would be 10mL for the entire water volume.

 

Oh dear, how could I have put that much in? How weak is my ammonia?!? Now I'm really concerned I went way overboard. Granted, there are just plants in there, but what if my calculations are way off?

 

Do you have the API Master Liquid Test kit? You'll need it to cycle. You can test your ammonia now in the tank and see where it's at.

 

I just tested it again (API liquid kit) and the whole tank is at 2.0. I was worried after I saw what the calculator gave me for a 10% solution (it said about 1-2 mL...so I figured I went way too far). Thankfully it wasn't. My ammonia must be a really low percentage solution. It tested 2.0, perfect. I moved the filter intake sponge from the betta tank over to the new tank and added Stability. I'm a little concerned about all the brown gunk in the filter sponge. I think much of it was some fungus that came after the driftwood was added to the betta tank about 4 weeks ago. That won't negatively impact the new tank, will it?

 

I don't think it will.

You can use this thread as a cycling log if you want and I'll keep an eye on how it's going.

 

I wouldn't add the CRS (they need particular water parameters and pristine water), but otherwise sounds good! Amano shrimp are fine to have with RCS. Amanos are better algae eaters.

 

I tested the ammonia this afternoon and it seemed like it has changed a little. It could be around 1.5 (color was between 1.0 and 2.0). I added a capful of Stability for the 3rd day in a row...except I keep forgetting to shake well first.

Do I need ammonia to get all the way to 0 before adding again? If I dose ammonia up to 2.0 again on Thursday, do I need someone to add stability or any more ammonia before I get home Monday? I'm not planning to have our house sitter test any water, but she'll add something if needed.

 

Also, how many fish/shrimp can I add at once after the cycle completes? Do I need to QT? I'm trying to figure out how I can reasonably create a QT without setting up a third tank. I could move all the betta tank inhabitants (betta, 3 amanos, 1 nerite) to the new tank once it cycles. This was already my plan anyhow, simply so I could rebuild the decor/plants/substrate for the betta tank. Hubby will think I'm crazy if I buy a 10 gallon simply to QT (or to upgrade betta & friends to make the 5 gallon QT).

Maybe I get the shrimp for the new tank first...then after a week or so transfer all the betta tank inhabitants over "temporarily" to the new tank. QT the tetras in the 5 gallon and then "swap" them with the betta when the time comes? This would really only allow me to QT a small school of tetras when my ultimate goal was a dozen individuals. But from what I've read, I shouldn't add more than a few fish at a time to the new tank....right? Once the betta is back in the 5 gallon I'm not sure how to QT more tetras or any other fish. Do I need to QT snails? shrimp?

Is there a way to do this without a third tank?

 

Yes. Increase your ammonia to 3 instead of 2. Careful because once you hit 4 it becomes toxic to bb. Once you set an increase in ammonia (this signifies a fish load) you can actually add a larger number of inhabitants initially.

Ideally what you really want to do is cycle. Add shrimp. Let it build up for 3-6 months. Once a colony sets you can add fish. But it seems like you want a speed cycle and stock

 

Also, how many fish/shrimp can I add at once after the cycle completes? Do I need to QT? I'm trying to figure out how I can reasonably create a QT without setting up a third tank. I could move all the betta tank inhabitants (betta, 3 amanos, 1 nerite) to the new tank once it cycles. This was already my plan anyhow, simply so I could rebuild the decor/plants/substrate for the betta tank. Hubby will think I'm crazy if I buy a 10 gallon simply to QT (or to upgrade betta & friends to make the 5 gallon QT).

Once you're cycled in the 28g, do a 90% water change, run the filters for a few hours before adding any new inhabitants. How long will it take you to upgrade the 5g? If you're going to buy everything first, then just move the betta and inhabitants to the 28g while you fix up the 5 gallon then move them back the same day when finished. You could move his sponge over too.

Once they're back into their own tank then you can stock the 28g. How many you can add depends on how much ammonia you're processing in 24 hours. I think if you are processing 2-2.5ppm in 24 hours then you can add in everyone at once I think. When people are processing 4ppm in 24 hours that is for stocking a whole tank with cichlids etc so I think you would be fine personally. You don't need to QT them as they are the first inhabitants to the tank. I've never had disease issues with snails or shrimp but if you are purchasing from the same store they are on a shared water system and would already have been introduced to the bacteria from other fish.
Hope that made sense. It is a good idea to have a small extra tank either way in the future, even if its a 5 gallon because at some point one of your fish may become sick and you might want to treat him separately. On the other hand, if you only have tetras and one becomes sick, odds are good you'd want to treat the whole tank either way. Just throwing some thoughts out there.

For this weekend, if its still over 1.0 tomorrow, I would just let it do its thing while you're gone. The bacteria won't die in a day or two and it will take at least a couple days for it to hit 0, and you'll be back on Monday.

Ideally what you really want to do is cycle. Add shrimp. Let it build up for 3-6 months. Once a colony sets you can add fish. But it seems like you want a speed cycle and stock

No reason to wait if she has already built it up with ammonia

 

Tested same time today. Ammonia 1.0
Headed the right direction. Do I dose ammonia tomorrow?

 

Do you have any nitrites?

 

Test today, 21 hours later:

Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite 0

 

Hmm, at the rate its going down I would just leave it till Monday. Do you have any nitrates yet? (not accounted for in tap water if you have those too).

 

I didn't test for nitrates since there were no nitrites. :/ Unfortunately I've run out of time. I'll check back in this thread and if you think I should add any ammonia I'll have my house sitter do it I guess, even if it's just a few drops.

 

I think it will be fine. Just test nitrites and nitrates before you re-dose on Monday .
Sometimes you start seeing both at the same time.

 

Tonight 9/5
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate somewhere above 0 and below 5

several of the newest plants -- blyxa japonica, placed on 9/1 -- were "uprooted" (loose term since they barely had roots when they arrived) and tossed about by the current over the weekend, so the tank was a mess with plant leaves, some were "melting." Not sure how the leaf decay affects any of these numbers naturally, if at all.

What's next?

 

Did you redose ammonia? I would dose it tonight. You can get some plant anchors that you wrap around the stems before putting them into the substrate. It weighs them down and keeps them in place.

 

Yes, I dosed ammonia to 1.0 last night. I wasn't sure how high I should get it. I'll look for weights today. I have some that came on plants I bought, but there aren't enough. I also turned the flow down on the filter.

 

So I have to restate that I dosed ammonia Monday night, but I didn't actually test it. I just added half as much as it took to get 2.0, so I assumed that it would be 1.0. Still not sure if that is correct thinking, but it made sense in my head.

Wednesday test:
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate ~5 (not quite dark enough to be 5...so I'll say 4).

 

Ok, wait for ammonia to drop to 0-.25 before re-dosing it

 

Do I put in the same amount I used Monday night (5mL) or the amount I used to get ammonia levels to 2.0 (10mL)?

 

Depends on where your nitrites are at, test them too and we'll go from there.

 

Thursday 9/8
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 5

Dose ammonia today? How much? If I'm getting nitrates now, how do I determine if the cycle is "complete"? Do I need to cycle a certain amount of ammonia in a certain amount of time? Or does the presence of nitrates alone signify the presence of all necessary bacteria for the cycle?

 

Yes, dose ammonia today to 1.0-2.0.

No, nitrates alone doesn't indicate it, the cycle is complete when you dose ammonia and 24 hours later you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and some nitrates

 

I think It's getting closer. I added more ammonia on 9/8 than I added at the previous dosing (6mL vs. 5mL). I didn't test after adding the ammonia, so I don't know exactly what the ammonia level was once I added it. I added 6mL of ammonia, which should have put it over 1 and below 2. I'll test next time I add it to make sure.

24 hours later (9/9):
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 5

So it seemed to drop the numbers much more quickly than the first and second times I dosed ammonia. I expect when I test tonight the ammonia might be back to 0-0.25, so I'll dose ammonia again and check the level.

 

almost 24 hours later - 9/10
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 5-10 (color in between)

I have not yet dosed ammonia again. Should I do that tonight, or wait until tomorrow? Dose again to 1-2 ppm? (I will test when I add this time)

 

Hi, sorry I wasn't on last night. Yep go ahead and dose this morning if you haven't yet.

 

Ok, I dosed ammonia yesterday morning to 1.0

24 hours later:
Ammonia below 0.25
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 10-20

I will dose ammonia again today. Once it's cycled, how large of a water change should I do before adding fish/inverts?

 

I'd say a good 90%

 

Oh, ok, I've never done a change quite that large. Thanks for the info.

I did end up getting a 3rd tank for QT (either now or in the future), but do you think it would be better to use the 5 gallon or 10 gallon as the QT tank? If I upgrade the 5 gallon betta tank to the 10g, then I'll have the 5 gallon for QT; or I can just keep betta in the 5 gallon and use the 10 gallon for QT when needed. I'd put the betta in the 10 gallon no problem, but I'm not sure if I have a good long term place for it (it would overlap a direct-sun window by 30% of the tank width). The 5 gallon is currently in front of the same window, but there isn't an overlap, so the amount of direct sun to the tank is minimal. Even if the window spot doesn't work out, I have some other places I can put the 5 gallon that won't work for the 10g. :-\ I'd love to have more space for inverts with the betta, but it would be a moot point if the QT should definitely be bigger than 5 gallon anyhow.

 

You can leave the betta in his 5 gallon if that works out better for room and then just get out the 10 gallon when you need to QT. When you QT just pull some media from your main tank for an instant cycle

I should modify my prior statement. If nitrates are only 10 then a 50% change will be fine. Just aI'm to get them down below 10 before adding your fish.

 

Sure. I would guess that by the time it's finished cycling the nitrates will be over 20. The color was so close to both 10 and 20 on the chart I couldn't tell which one it was. I dosed more ammonia a little while ago and haven't tested yet to see where I got it...my guess is ammonia is a little over 1.0.

 

18 hours:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5

24 hours:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0

I didnt test Nitrate because I alredy knew it was there, over 20 by now.
I changed 90% of the water and will test it all again tomorrow before adding livestock.