Video of what TB looks like

Discussion in 'Freshwater Fish Disease' started by endlercollector, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. endlercollector

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember


    I just got back from vacation and immediately discovered a bad case of tuberculosis in the second and third generation female Endler tank. You can see her very clearly in the video with the classic curved spine and gaunt chest. There was another girl with a bizarre S curve to her spine but with a still around belly we also put down. Two others have some scoliosis but are swimming too well to be caught. These girls range in age from eight months to a year and have had some other issues that I believe to be 2 other mycobacteria.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  2. poeticinjustices

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    So sad, EC :(

    But also really important. Thank you for sharing that.
  3. Tonia

    ToniaWell Known MemberMember

    So sorry to hear about your endler girls, EC. Thank you for sharing the video as it may help others to diagnose their fish if this disease hits them.

  4. Micaela13

    Micaela13Well Known MemberMember

    yea that video im sure will help a lot of people. sorry about your endler girls tho :( i know its tuff seeing them like that
  5. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    The last 48 hours have been so intense, but at least the surviving 200+ Endler's are still happy to see me. As long as I keep feeding them, they couldn't care less about mycobacteria!

  6. junebug

    junebugFishlore LegendMember

    That is exactly what my swordtails looked like :( Poor things.
  7. DoubleDutch

    DoubleDutchFishlore LegendMember

    Grrrr that's too bad. I am curious to know how you know this is TB. Wouldn't the whole stock go the same way if so? Regards Aad
  8. poeticinjustices

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

    DoubleDutch - EC I hope you don't mind me answering for you, I know you're super busy right now, and please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I think I've learned from your threads. Not necessarily being the answer. Sometimes fish live out their lives never actually showing symptoms of actual myco. A major stressor or a secondary infection that is treated with medication allows the mycos the opportunity to come to the surface. Once mycos is confirmed in a fish tank resident, however, it's necessary to keep the surviving fish in permanent quarantine if you so choose not to euthanize everyone who isn't yet showing symptoms.

    This is really the last thread I should be reading right now lol. There's been so many cases of mycos popping up lately I decided to research its prevalence and presentation in fancy goldfish communities. And I've subsequently gone down a very dark rabbit hole.

    This is just horrific and, again EC, I am sorry you're going through this :(
  9. DoubleDutch

    DoubleDutchFishlore LegendMember

    Isn't there also a disease that only affects guppys? Tried to find it, but didn't find it yet.
  10. poeticinjustices

    poeticinjusticesWell Known MemberMember

  11. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    @ poeticinjustices
    Thanks, it's true, I have been really overwhelmed. Good job with the explanation, and this is exactly what happens with human TB, too. BTW, my grandmother was a TB carrier who did not get the disease, but my grandfather died of it. Three of my uncles recovered from it, but that was back in the days when the drugs still worked.

    @ DoubleDutch
    I suspect that what they called guppy disease and neon tetra disease are actually multiple and simultaneous illnesses that are popping up in fish that are being bred, shipped, and sold in overcrowded conditions. It is very likely that they have various mycobacterial infections (many exist besides the most infamous TB), and so they just have no immunity. The slightest stress and the usual viruses will make in keel over, and they will not handle medications for parasites as well as healthier fish would. Drugs are very harsh on anyone's system, but so much worse for someone who is in bad shape already.

    At any rate, the good news is that, yes, it is possible for some fish to live with multiple mycobacterial infections. I will write about that tomorrow. Ah, mañana...
  12. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    Endercollector, not to discount your research but couldn't these symptoms (sunken belly, crooked spine) also indicate blood parasites or the bacteria that causes wasting disease?

    Were labs tests done? I'm just trying to understand how this diagnosis came about.

    This is all to say in the past I have lost a couple fish to similar symptoms (crooked spine, sunken belly) but it has never wiped out my stock or come to the point where I felt I had to put the rest of my fish down because of it.

    Again, with respect, I'd hate for members to see this video and jump right to the conclusion that their fish have TB.
  13. DoubleDutch

    DoubleDutchFishlore LegendMember

    Ahhh found it (doesn't looks like this BTW)


    NTD isn't a bacterial issue btw.

    Regards Aad
  14. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    You're correct, Lucy, people should not jump to the conclusion immediately that their fish have TB after only a look at this video. They also have to fill in many blanks about their tanks history. I happen to know that this is TB and that there are various other mycobacteria going on in my tanks due to my fishes' origin at the lab and what has been going on there. I am also basing my diagnosis on past bouts going back for years.

    I am going to be writing about the other mycobacteria in another thread as it is possible to live with them if one is prepared.
  15. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    Been there, had that. My first Endler collection was wiped out that way--treated for Tetrahymena , but it turned out to be columnaris.

    NTD is about poor breeding in combination with bacterial issues. The problem is that many of the neons available in the US come from Thailand. They are bred in overcrowded conditions and get a lot of antibiotics. The ones who survive the trip to the US were the healthiest ones, but the stress of the journey and their already severely compromised, so they respond poorly to treatment and die quickly.

    I was elated when I first found out on Fishlore from other members that wild-caught and U.S. bred neons are much healthier. To me, this means that it's not "neon tetra" disease, as that is like blaming the species, but rather money. This situation is simply about trying to make money off of fish that are sold 20 for $10 (10, originally, but then there are 10 replacements from the store after the first set all die). The real money, however, isn't in the fish at all but rather in the equipment and meds. The fish themselves are merely like the $1 sodas that get people in the door, so that they'll buy the burgers and the fries, too...
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  16. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    Neon Tetra Disease is parasitic.

  17. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    Parasites, yes,, and the fish are weak and do not do well with drug treatment due to the underlying bacterial issues involved in their breeding conditions. We cannot separate bacteria from anything else because all living things are full of them.

    This reminds me of the time I had to go see an ophthalmologist, and I told him that I was having problems due to my allergies. He told me he was not interested in my nose. I had to go see two more doctors before someone gave me the script that a nurse practitioner could've written for the appropriate eyedrops. Over compartmentalization is not good for us when trying to figure out what is wrong with the patient. Sometimes, smart people forget to step back and look at the bigger picture.
  18. m50Valued MemberMember

    I have 24 guppy fry that are a month old now. Now they are getting more colours I believe they had an endler for a father, mother was guppy.

    2 were half the size of the rest at 1 month old, about half an inch. 1 of these had a spine that was what I consider bent. Not wanting it to breed it got culled.

    The 1 left is still tiny, all normal sized ones are doing fine. No natural deaths out of 24 fry.

    Any enlightening you can do to this?

    I believe they are endler x guppies because: they show normal guppy tails but the 2 large male have just started getting red, black, metallic blue and green spots, lines and patches on body.
    We got the mother from p@h already pregnant and only females were in the tank, but did get some endlers from same shop at same time.

    Now seeing the above video I see the small guppy we have is very thin and maybe slightly curved spine.
    The mother guppy died after giving birth she had a prolapse.

    Many thanks
  19. OP

    endlercollectorFishlore VIPMember

    @ m50
    There are a lot of possible explanations, most of them well within the range of normal although you want always to practice basic safety and cleanliness. You could start your own thread about your fish, post some photos, and tag me, so that you can get more help with this. The guppy forum would be a good place, and you can put in extra tags at the bottom such as Endler's and Endler's hybrid.
  20. Rivieraneo

    RivieraneoModeratorModerator Member

    endlercollector, junebug, please educate me a little as I have been doing reading on the subject of the different strains of myco to a point where my head hurts :( . Below are two quotes from Walstads article:

    From the article:

    Having done some research on the subject, the most common visible occurrence which I would conclude an absolute diagnosis of a fish with myco is the presence of granulomas. Most studies i read showed that fish who died from myco and showed no exterior signs of granulomas did have them in their insides (kidneys, liver,) but those which exhibited no external signs were very few. The labs who conducted these studies (studies noted in Walstads article) all had very specific procedures they followed which involved taking samples, acid staining and incubating samples of potentially infected fish to provide an absolute diagnosis of myco.

    I know some of the observations that have been noted recently to look for when identifying a fish with a myco infection are a curved spine and gaunt chest, though Waldstads article states that these visual symptoms only occurred in one of her fish and the most common symptom of myco being skin granulomas. Also, some of the laboratories who conducted these studies used fish who were euthanized due to "suspected" myco. The lab regardless of the suspicion, conducted their own tests for an absolute diagnosis via microscope.

    Recent threads where myco has been suspected, i have failed to observe any granulomas, so im confused.

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