Vet Says To Use Untreated Tap Water?

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AvalancheDave

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Tetracycline is a poor choice, especially in a bath, as it will bind calcium, magnesium, and other ions. It is sometimes used in fish farms because FDA regulations severely restrict the chemicals they can use in food fish. And even then, they administer TC in the feed where calcium binding is less problematic (though a low calcium diet is still recommended).

CIR 84/FA084: Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture

Oxytetracycline and related antibiotics are considered broad-spectrum antibiotics (effective against a wide variety of bacteria), and they work well when mixed with food. However, bath treatments may not be as effective for all species. One study (Nusbaum and Shotts 1981) demonstrated that channel catfish absorbed approximately 15-17% of the oxytetracycline added to water with hardness of 20 mg/L and pH of 6.7. However, at least two freshwater fish species (yellow perch and hybrid tilapia) did not have the expected levels of this antibiotic in their blood when exposed experimentally to oxytetracycline as a bath treatment for up to 8 hours (K. Hughes, unpublished data; S.A. Smith, Virginia Tech, pers. comm. 2002; and R.P.E. Yanong, University of Florida, unpublished data). In addition, calcium and magnesium bind to tetracycline and oxytetracycline, rendering them inactive. This means that with increasing water hardness (i.e., increases in calcium and magnesium levels), it is necessary to increase the dosages of these drugs in bath treatments. Tetracyclines are ineffective when used as a bath treatment for saltwater fish.
 
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jojomo91

jojomo91

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Wow this thread got very technical.

Let me explain further what's going on here.

I purchased 8 Red Eye and 8 Bleeding Heart. They all stayed in QT for 2 weeks in a 29g. They all were treated with the recommendation Cory from Aquarium Coop told me about. 1 dose Ich X and 1 dose EM. I realize this is somewhat controversial and I don't wish to have a debate over that. After 2 weeks I put them all in my 210. Now, I saw a few of the BHs had torn fins prior to adding them to my tank, but I assumed it would improve with good conditions. After a few days in the 210 I noticed one of the BHs had a white bump near its eye. I took all 8 BHs out and put them back in the QT. I treated with Furan 2 twice, and Fungus Cure twice. I notice a bit of improvement after the first treatment of FC but none further. I consulted a vet online and she recommended this treatment of Oxytetracycline, 10 doses, 12 hours apart, 50-75% WC before each one. I want to help these little guys out and have them be okay. We aren't sure exactly what the bump is but this is what was recommended.

I intend to try this treatment. I just need to know if any water conditioning product will protect my fish from my tap water and not affect the meds.
 

OnTheFly

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This isn't much help, but I would be inclined to test it on one fish in a separate container and 0bserve the fish a few hours. If you have a gross amount of chlorine in your tap it won't take long top tell. Just mix it n the same proportion you intend to WC. If you have a water filter in your home put a fresh carbon filter in it. Charcoal will remove some chlorine. Not in the tank of course as that will remove the meds.
 
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jojomo91

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I really need to find a safe product to add that will detoxify or at least protect the fish from the 1ppm ammonia I'm detecting in my tap whilst not affecting the Oxy treatment. Ammolock? Not sure. Also, what if my API kit is detecting this ammonia but it's really chloromines? I have no way to tell. I'm supposed to start treatment tomorrow...
 

AvalancheDave

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Every aquarium dechlorination product is a reducing agent. They all work the same way.

Why do you want to use tetracycline? It's an old antibiotic that many bacteria are resistant to. It also has a lot of problems due to binding calcium and magnesium (and there's plenty in most tap water).

When I've taken my fish to the vet, they've never prescribed tetracycline. It was TMP-sulfa or a late generation cephalosporin administer intraperitoneally.
 

misfittoy

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I really need to find a safe product to add that will detoxify or at least protect the fish from the 1ppm ammonia I'm detecting in my tap whilst not affecting the Oxy treatment. Ammolock? Not sure. Also, what if my API kit is detecting this ammonia but it's really chloromines? I have no way to tell. I'm supposed to start treatment tomorrow...
You should call the numbers on the back of the bottles and ask the manufacturers whether or not their products can be used with the med. Someone always answers those lines directly, it's amazing old school customer service.
 
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This vet is all I have to rely on. I've tried all my over the counter options as I said. I don't know what else to treat with.

It's been extremely stressful on me. I really don't know what to do.

Also from what I'm reading API Tap Water Condtioner does nothing to ammonia, whereas Ammo Lock only helps with ammonia but not chlorine or chloromines.
 

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Good lord, folks. He has consulted an aquatic vet and the treatment he's trying was the vet's recommendation. Stop telling him to try other things; that isn't helpful at this point.

@jojomo91 can you move a few pieces of cycled media to your QT tank filter? If you can, do, because that will help with the ammonia in the water better than any water treatment. If I recall correctly, Prime only detoxes ammonia for 48 hours anyway. After that I remember Seachem stating the ammonia can become toxic again if it's not processed by the BB in your filter. So this is all a moot point if you can't get cycled media in your QT tank.

You may also want to try adding something like Stability (which can be used with water changes). The bacteria in Stability will help with getting a healthy BB colony going in your QT tank.

Another option (and I believe you may have already said you won't be doing this, but just in case) is to cut your tap water with RO water from a vending machine (usually about 5 gallons for a dollar) to reduce ammonia and chloramines in the water.
 
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So I am currently running carbon in the filter to remove color from a Fungus Cure treatment. Then I will test the water to see if there is any BB present. Issue here is the 50-75% daily WC which will introduce more ammonia / chloromines. Who knows. I don't know anywhere around here to get RO water. And funny thing, last year I bought some Poland Spring distilled water, ammonia test show some present, like .5 or more. Was strange.

This is such a headache
 

California L33

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Good lord, folks. He has consulted an aquatic vet and the treatment he's trying was the vet's recommendation. Stop telling him to try other things; that isn't helpful at this point.

@jojomo91 can you move a few pieces of cycled media to your QT tank filter? If you can, do, because that will help with the ammonia in the water better than any water treatment. If I recall correctly, Prime only detoxes ammonia for 48 hours anyway. After that I remember Seachem stating the ammonia can become toxic again if it's not processed by the BB in your filter. So this is all a moot point if you can't get cycled media in your QT tank.

You may also want to try adding something like Stability (which can be used with water changes). The bacteria in Stability will help with getting a healthy BB colony going in your QT tank.

Another option (and I believe you may have already said you won't be doing this, but just in case) is to cut your tap water with RO water from a vending machine (usually about 5 gallons for a dollar) to reduce ammonia and chloramines in the water.
It's true that all the varying opinions can be counterproductive and confusing and stressful to the OP, and I don't think anyone offering them has been to veterinary school, but if your vet advised you to put a fish in 2ppm ammonia would you do so without even questioning it? Vets are people. People make mistakes. And we're not certain this is a vet who specializes in fish, or is even aware that the OP's water has so much ammonia in it. There may be very good reasons for the advice offered, but vets need to communicate the reasons for treatments that go counter to general care- just like if you went to the doctor and said doctor advised you to start huffing ammonia you might ask why that's a good option. It might be very sound medical advice, but if it gives the impression of being more harmful than beneficial you'd probably want the reasons clearly explained.
 

OnTheFly

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The OPs concerns seem very legitimate, and I would be asking the Vet to answer them in some detail whether it annoys him/her or not. If the Vet is not aware of the OPs water then that problem should be corrected. At the end of the day it seems obvious the OP does not trust the medical advice of the Vet, or an internet debate would not have been initiated. That's not a pleasant situation when you pay for professional services.
 

Redrum

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Yeah I'm really unsure what to do. I suppose do what the vet says!
As stated above you could bucket water and let it set and also put an air stone in it for quicker removal of chlorine. i would be willing to bet you could clear a small amount of water within 12 hours of high air infusion... say 2.5 gallons of water.
 

jmaldo

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Just been lurking here, figured I might learn something. Boy did I. @jojomo91 You asked a legitimate question and have your "Wet Pets" health as the #1 priority. It appears you are getting conflicting advise and this has turned into a debate, which is not helping your situation. My head is spinning for you. Curious how this turns out. Hang in there and Good Luck.
 

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I read a little of this thread and wonder why OP hasn't contacted the vet again to address his concerns about ammonia in the tap water, etc. If I were unclear about instructions from my vet,I would question her until she'd be tired of me

Besides, vets do make mistakes. A vet I went to once recommended to use a flea dip for a tiny kitten I found (only 3 months and older) . If I had done that, the kitten would not be alive anymore.
 

junebug

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It's true that all the varying opinions can be counterproductive and confusing and stressful to the OP, and I don't think anyone offering them has been to veterinary school, but if your vet advised you to put a fish in 2ppm ammonia would you do so without even questioning it? Vets are people. People make mistakes. And we're not certain this is a vet who specializes in fish, or is even aware that the OP's water has so much ammonia in it. There may be very good reasons for the advice offered, but vets need to communicate the reasons for treatments that go counter to general care- just like if you went to the doctor and said doctor advised you to start huffing ammonia you might ask why that's a good option. It might be very sound medical advice, but if it gives the impression of being more harmful than beneficial you'd probably want the reasons clearly explained.
The issue I'm seeing is folks here telling the OP to try other medication. We aren't vets. The OP has also stated that the vet was an aquatics vet if I'm not mistaken, and that the oxytetracycline is the recommended treatment for the symptoms he described. I'm not saying that vets are perfect. But folks arguing over what medication to use really isn't helping the OP. He has already decided to treat with Oxytetracycline.

The simple solution is to treat the fish in a smaller tank and use RO water for water changes. Barring that, the best option is to ensure the tank is cycled so that the ammonia can be processed quickly.
 

wolfdog01

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Tried reading all of the thread but it has a lot of science in it lol. I think the OP mentioned something about a white bump on a fish? I don't know how much help I can offer but my betta had a pimple like bump right behind his eye at one point. It just showed up. I did daily water changes, added a little salt after a week, and it turned kinda red around the area but then is popped. The white piece dangled off his face for a day or two before falling off and he healed up fine. Again, not sure if that's what you're concerned about on the fish but I saw something about a bump behind the eye.
Good luck! You have a lot of info on this thread, I'd probably talk to the vet about it again, just to double check.
 

AvalancheDave

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A fifty to seventy-five percent water change with chloraminated tap water without dechlorinator is going to be harmful. I would seriously doubt the competency of a vet who makes such a recommendation.

P.S. You can often get RO/DI water from LFS that sells saltwater fish as RO/DI water is what they use to reconstitute sea water.
 
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