Vet Says To Use Untreated Tap Water?


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jojomo91

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Yeah it is! Gotcha. Thanks everyone for your input, appreciated.
 

NightShade

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I couldn't agree more with @Susiefoo, and with what a few others have posted, but since you can't use bottled, I would post on the seachem website, number one, and number two... you could just pre fill buckets: treat with low dose of Prime, let sit for 24-48 hrs before use. You may need a lot of buckets though.
 

Jocelyn Adelman

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Real quick...

Did you consult an aquatic vet? Was it in person or over the phone? Are they local to your area?


What is it that you are using the oxytetracycline for? (Diagnosis?)

Edit
Also if you have a decent LFS nearby (not a big chain store) you can also call them and see if they have any info....
Wonder if something like ammo lock will work for the ammonia and be safe with the meds???.
 

andychrissytank

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Oxytetracycline.
The vet is correct: do not use prime
Prime binds to ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates for up to 48 hours remember? That would be NH3+, NO2-, and NO3-.
Oxytetracycline is C22H24N2O9 with a half life of 8 hours (meaning after 8 hours it basically cuts to 50% effectiveness).
Seachem doesn't specifically tell us what Prime is made of directly, last I checked, but the vet is worried about the N2O9 decomposing and being neutralized
You can leave the water overnight like some people recommend for the chlorine to decompose before use
 

jojomo91

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The vet is correct: do not use prime
Prime binds to ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates for up to 48 hours remember? That would be NH3+, NO2-, and NO3-.
Oxytetracycline is C22H24N2O9 with a half life of 8 hours (meaning after 8 hours it basically cuts to 50% effectiveness).
Seachem doesn't specifically tell us what Prime is made of directly, last I checked, but the vet is worried about the N2O9 decomposing and being neutralized
You can leave the water overnight like some people recommend for the chlorine to decompose before use
Would another water dechlorinator be okay to use then? Tetra Aquasafe or API Tap Water Conditioner?
 

jojomo91

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This was over phone, but okay. I'm gonna order one of those.
 

California L33

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The vet is correct: do not use prime
Prime binds to ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates for up to 48 hours remember? That would be NH3+, NO2-, and NO3-.
Oxytetracycline is C22H24N2O9 with a half life of 8 hours (meaning after 8 hours it basically cuts to 50% effectiveness).
Seachem doesn't specifically tell us what Prime is made of directly, last I checked, but the vet is worried about the N2O9 decomposing and being neutralized
You can leave the water overnight like some people recommend for the chlorine to decompose before use
In case you missed it, the OP has a water supply with 1-2 ppm ammonia.

The OP also doesn't know if the local water supply uses chlorine (which will evaporate quickly) or chloramine (which won't.)
 

andychrissytank

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In case you missed it, the OP has a water supply with 1-2 ppm ammonia.
They will all just bond away and the alleged chloramine will be reduced to Cl2 gas since that's the only oddball molecule here; all the others are really good friends and will have no problem bonding off (Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen). In a sense the oxy will take care of some of the ammonia, aided by OPs filter, which is probably why the vet or whoever recommended it. The worst possible outcome is creating hydrazine but I don't think that is very likely
 

NightShade

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In case you missed it, the OP has a water supply with 1-2 ppm ammonia.

The OP also doesn't know if the local water supply uses chlorine (which will evaporate quickly) or chloramine (which won't.)
Ok, but if the op uses a dechlorinator, **and has a well cycled tank**, then maybe the bacteria could take care of it?

Oor... do 25% bottled, with 25% tap??

Edit: ooh... @andychrissytank has a MUCH BETTER comment lol!

Edit again for spelling lol
 
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junebug

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It might be worth checking to see if Ammo-lock has the same reaction as Prime with Oxytetracycline.

That said, ammonia does gas off. It might also be worth leaving your water out in buckets with aeration.
 

jojomo91

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I should clarify I was using api meds in this temp hospital tank and I have no readings on my filters efficiency to process ammonia at the moment.
 

California L33

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They will all just bond away and the alleged chloramine will be reduced to Cl2 gas since that's the only oddball molecule here; all the others are really good friends and will have no problem bonding off (Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen). In a sense the oxy will take care of some of the ammonia, aided by OPs filter, which is probably why the vet or whoever recommended it. The worst possible outcome is creating hydrazine but I don't think that is very likely
I'm not a chemist, and I know you can't believe everything you read on Wikipedia, but... "Chloramine, like chlorine, can be removed by boiling and aging. However, time required to remove chloramine is much longer than that of chlorine. The time required to remove half of the chloramine (half-life) from 10 US gallons (38 l; 8.3 imp gal) of water by boiling is 26.6 hours, whereas the half-life of free chlorine in boiling 10 gallons of water is only 1.8 hours." The reason municipalities are switching to it is precisely because it's harder to get rid of than chlorine.
 

andychrissytank

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I'm not a chemist, and I know you can't believe everything you read on Wikipedia, but... "Chloramine, like chlorine, can be removed by boiling and aging. However, time required to remove chloramine is much longer than that of chlorine. The time required to remove half of the chloramine (half-life) from 10 US gallons (38 l; 8.3 imp gal) of water by boiling is 26.6 hours, whereas the half-life of free chlorine in boiling 10 gallons of water is only 1.8 hours." The reason municipalities are switching to it is precisely because it's harder to get rid of than chlorine.
Correct that's totally true. But you have to remember that chloramine is NH2Cl.
NH3 + NH2Cl + H2O -> N2H4 + Cl + OH or ammonia + chloramine + water produces hydrazine + hydroxide + chlorine gas (it's naturally diatomic and will become Cl2). However, this equation does have some negative coef's (OH-) which is why I said that the hydrazine was unlikely to form since the OH's would just steal some hydrogens to become happy water which is far easier to produce. I'm not gonna bother touching that oxytetracycline since we'd be here for hours balancing it
 

JamieXPXP

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i kinda feel like im back in school lol
 

California L33

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I'm not gonna bother touching that oxytetracycline since we'd be here for hours balancing it
Well, most science-y stuff is incredibly interesting, but I'm sure what the OP wants to address is precisely the oxytetracyline issue . Will he do more harm to his fish by putting it in a tank with untreated water and the antibiotic or by treating the water and potentially affecting the medicine's ability to do its job?

Wait a moment. Seachem says Prime loses its effectiveness 24-48 hours after application. Presumably the chlorine/chloramine doesn't re-appear. Perhaps the best approach would be to treat the water then wait 48 hours.
 

andychrissytank

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Well, most science-y stuff is incredibly interesting, but I'm sure what the OP wants to address is precisely the oxytetracyline issue . Will he do more harm to his fish by putting it in a tank with untreated water and the antibiotic or by treating the water and potentially affecting the medicine's ability to do its job?

Wait a moment. Seachem says Prime loses its effectiveness 24-48 hours after application. Presumably the chlorine/chloramine doesn't re-appear. Perhaps the best approach would be to treat the water then wait 48 hours.
I meant balancing it with the other equation
C22H24N2O9 +NH3 + NH2Cl + H2O -> Cl2 + some stuff I'm too lazy to figure out right now.
No harm will come to the fish being in chlor(am)ine and ammonia to answer your question. Treating the water will reduce the capability of the oxy to work. Waiting 48 hours is not going to work either since during the 48 its going to release all of its binding and the water will be the same as if it was left untreated. OP's filter would have had to been cycled already in the tank to process it all so quickly and even then, any amount of nitrates will not harm the fish either. We can't assume/presume the chlor(am)ine doesn't reappear because it can't just magically disappear- what you start out it is what you end up with. If OP absolutely wants me to balance the equation for him, I will certainly try, but we can all just visualize what will happen based on what we all already know about how these things react
 

Cheesearmada

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Chlorine and Chloramines can also kill your cycle if I remember properly?
 
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