Very odd fishless cycle parameters

Hello everyone! It's been a long time since I've posted or read anything on this forum. I got out of the hobby when I had kids, but now that they have shown interest, I've decided to get back in. I've kept Apistos, Discus, and many other freshwater fish over my ~15 years of experience in the hobby. We are starting with a 20 gallon tank. We're not 100% sure on the fish we will stock, but right now the front runners are a pair of Apistos. I have cycled many tanks using the fishless method without issue.

Day 1 - Now on to the cycle. We setup the tank with heater (Eheim), gravel (Estes natural look), fake plants, filter (AquaClear 20), piece of spider wood, and light. The filter and heater have been operating nonstop since then. The temp of the aquarium is 80F. We discussed the Nitrogen cycle at length (they are quite anxious to get fish in the tank) and added Seachem Prime, Dr Tim's ammonium chloride, and Fritz Zyme 7 Nitrifying Bacteria to the tank. After a few hours I tested the water for ammonia and it was at ~2-3 ppm as indicated by an API freshwater test (We have the freshwater master kit).

Day 2 - In the A.M., ~12 hours after adding ammonia, the kids wanted to test. I had never used a nitrifying bacteria before, but knew that it didn't work that fast. However, they were enthusiastic about something I am enthusiastic about, so I said let's do it. Tested the ammonia...0 ppm. Retested....0 ppm. Yellow as can be. No hint of green. 0 ppm after five minutes for each test. My 8yr old daughter "WE HAVE TO TEST FOR NITRITES!" I got half excited too, but knew there was no way. Tested Nitrite...0 ppm. Tested Nitrates...0 ppm. I then thought that maybe I didn't put enough ammonia in on the first go, so I added more. After an hour of it circulating in the tank, I tested for Ammonia...3 ppm.

Day 3 - Water was starting to get cloudy. I read about bacteria blooms and even though I have never experienced it before, I decided that was the reason for the cloudiness. Tested Ammonia...1 ppm. Nitrites...0 ppm. Nitrates...0ppm. I was very confused at this point. Added more ammonia to get to 4 ppm.

Day 4 - Water was very cloudy at this point. Tested Ammonia...2 ppm. Nitrites...0 ppm. Nitrates...0ppm. At this point I decided to do more research on what could be happening. I read a lot about Ammonia vs Ammonium and how pH affects those things or how those things affect pH. I then tested my tap water. Ammonia...0 ppm. Nitrites...0 ppm. Nitrates...0ppm. pH...8.0. So then I tested the aquarium pH...7.4. Huh? I then decided to discuss with my wife who is pretty sharp and had to take many biology/chemistry/science courses in pursuit to becoming a doctor. She suggested that it is possible that the additional ammonia is being converted to ammonium and lowering the pH. Then I read on a forum that Prime does exactly that, but only for a limited amount of time. I added more ammonia to get it to ~5-6 ppm.

Day 5 - This morning I tested the tank. Ammonia...5-6 ppm. Nitrites...0 ppm. Nitrates...0ppm. pH...7.4. Water still very cloudy.

At this point I am wondering if I should abandon the cycle and start over or if I should persist and see what happens. I am seeking any advice/knowledge on something I am missing, but I also have a few questions.

1. Seachem Prime label says it detoxifies Ammonia. Did Prime convert ammonia to ammonium and cause the weird ammonia levels? If so, is my water about to convert a ton of ammonium into ammonia when the Prime wears off? Will that destroy my cycle?

2. Can this phenomenon happen naturally? Can water take on ammonia and convert ALL of it to ammonium up until a certain point?

3. I read on PlantedTank.net that the API freshwater test kit is a Salicylate test and therefore the test would register both ammonia and ammonium. Huh? Then where did all that ammonia go on days 2-4?

Thanks in advance!

 

1. No, Prime does not really interfere with ammonia readings in either direction, at least significantly. The API test kit measures total ammonia, which includes both free ammonia and ammonium.

2. It is a pH-dependent process, and yes at lower pH it can be almost all ammonium. But again, the API test kit measures total ammonia.

3. I wish I can say it is by the effect of the nitrifiers you introduced with FritzZyme 7. I did cycle my most recent tank in four days using the concentrated version after all. But alas, the zero nitrate says otherwise. Try to redo the nitrate test kit but shake the tubes and bottles super vigorously. Basically it’s 1. add 5ml to test tube, 2. shake bottle #1 vigorously, 3. add 10 drops of bottle #1, 4. shake super duper vigorously, 5. shake bottle #2 vigorously, 6. add 10 drops of bottle #2, 7. shake super duper vigorously, 8. wait five minutes. I hope you get a very decent nitrate reading, but the cloudiness is implying rather that you have non-nitrifying heterotrophs (the ‘wrong type of bacteria’) growing en masse.

Ammonia can be consumed in numerous ways, the ‘beneficial bacteria’ that we want to establish when cycling use it as an energy source. They, along with other microorganisms, also use ammonia as a nitrogen source for growth. In the latter case, that is what causes cells to divide and so on, thus why consumption of ammonia for growth by the ‘wrong bacteria’ results in a bacteria bloom. It is not necessarily good or bad per se.

 

Is it heavily planted? That may explain nitrates. Otherwise try shaking your liquid for 1 minute before doing a test. And grab a sample of water mid way down the tank....

weird

EDIT: I once used one if those bacteria balls in my tank as it said it would help cycle a new tank..... and it eliminated ammonia. Didn't have any lasting impact of the quality of actually cycling the tank but in the short-term it eliminated ammonia. I figured it was because there are so many strains of bacteria that there is bound to be a brand our there that work great in a short period of time but isn't actually a quality addition to cycling a tank.

I ended up going with stability, took me a month to fully cycle.

 

1. No, Prime does not really interfere with ammonia readings in either direction, at least significantly. The API test kit measures total ammonia, which includes both free ammonia and ammonium.

2. It is a pH-dependent process, and yes at lower pH it can be almost all ammonium. But again, the API test kit measures total ammonia.

3. I wish I can say it is by the effect of the nitrifiers you introduced with FritzZyme 7. I did cycle my most recent tank in four days using the concentrated version after all. But alas, the zero nitrate says otherwise. Try to redo the nitrate test kit but shake the tubes and bottles super vigorously. Basically it’s 1. add 5ml to test tube, 2. shake bottle #1 vigorously, 3. add 10 drops of bottle #1, 4. shake super duper vigorously, 5. shake bottle #2 vigorously, 6. add 10 drops of bottle #2, 7. shake super duper vigorously, 8. wait five minutes. I hope you get a very decent nitrate reading, but the cloudiness is implying rather that you have non-nitrifying heterotrophs (the ‘wrong type of bacteria’) growing en masse.

Ammonia can be consumed in numerous ways, the ‘beneficial bacteria’ that we want to establish when cycling use it as an energy source. They, along with other microorganisms, also use ammonia as a nitrogen source for growth. In the latter case, that is what causes cells to divide and so on, thus why consumption of ammonia for growth by the ‘wrong bacteria’ results in a bacteria bloom. It is not necessarily good or bad per se.

Thanks so much!

So the non-nitrifying heterotrophs are/were consuming the ammonia?

If so, do I need to do water changes to get them out of the water or will they eventually die off and be replaced with nitrifying bacteria?

 

My opinion, likely it's an operator error on the testing. the prime will lock up the ammonia for 48 hours, but it won't remove it, it should still test being there. if you get a funny reading, slow down, follow the directions and do it again.

the ammonia you put in there is still in there, unless it's been converted to nitrites, which would show up on a nitrite test if it was.

it takes 30+ days to full cycle. I don't trust the bacteria in a bottle stuff to speed anything up, and have never used it.

if a fishless cycle, there's no need for the prime except for chlorine removal and any dechlorinator method would work., there's no need to bind the ammonia because there's no fish to get hurt by it.

Most folks cycling would keep ammonia at 1ppm-2ppm tops. when you get up to 3ppm+ you can get cycle lock (stall) and nothing will happen at all. too much ammonia is a bad thing also it doesn't go faster at all.

You know you put the ammonia in there, it's still in there it didn't magically disappear and it didn't become nitrites.
I think you need to do a water change to reduce the ammonia below 2ppm and stay below 2ppm and probably try to be a little more patient.

LOL. I wish you the best of luck, seriously I do, but it takes time and patience, there really isn't a shortcut unless you are starting with a live bacteria colony off of another tanks filter.

pH drop, like a substrate causing it to lower, can convert Ammonia to Ammonium temporarily, still though the test should test for total ammonia, you would still see it on the test. whether is ammonia or ammonium.

the Estes gravel is supposed to be pH neutral. The Spiderwood, depending on tanin release and source and if recently cut and new surface exposed, can drop pH a bit.

 

Thanks so much!

So the non-nitrifying heterotrophs are/were consuming the ammonia?

If so, do I need to do water changes to get them out of the water or will they eventually die off and be replaced with nitrifying bacteria?

Here is exactly what I did. Throughout all this I added bottled bacterial from stability every day until cycle was complete. 2x for the first week.

Water change 50%

Added in a frozen shrimp for 48hrs.

After 48hrs I was up in ammonia so I removed the thawed shrimp and did a water change as required for the next couple days in order to keep ammonia at 2ppm... then I just let it sit, tested daily and around 2 weeks Ammonia started to drop daily while nitrites rose slowly. It stalled for almost 1 week but after 2 weeks 0, .25 nitrite and I barely had nitrates. Nitrates eventually went to 0 because I maintained a heavily planted tank and aquaponic set up.

This is my first tank and first experience cycling one.

Best of luck

 

My opinion, likely it's an operator error on the testing. the prime will lock up the ammonia for 48 hours, but it won't remove it, it should still test being there. if you get a funny reading, slow down, follow the directions and do it again.

the ammonia you put in there is still in there, unless it's been converted to nitrites, which would show up on a nitrite test if it was.

it takes 30+ days to full cycle. I don't trust the bacteria in a bottle stuff to speed anything up, and have never used it.

if a fishless cycle, there's no need for the prime except for chlorine removal and any dechlorinator method would work., there's no need to bind the ammonia because there's no fish to get hurt by it.

Most folks cycling would keep ammonia at 1ppm-2ppm tops. when you get up to 3ppm+ you can get cycle lock (stall) and nothing will happen at all. too much ammonia is a bad thing also it doesn't go faster at all.

You know you put the ammonia in there, it's still in there it didn't magically disappear and it didn't become nitrites.
I think you need to do a water change to reduce the ammonia below 2ppm and stay below 2ppm and probably try to be a little more patient.

LOL. I wish you the best of luck, seriously I do, but it takes time and patience, there really isn't a shortcut unless you are starting with a live bacteria colony off of another tanks filter.

pH drop, like a substrate causing it to lower, can convert Ammonia to Ammonium temporarily, still though the test should test for total ammonia, you would still see it on the test. whether is ammonia or ammonium.

It's not operator error. I've done these tests for many years and cycled many tanks. It could be a bad test kit.

Some responses I'm getting seem to suggest that something can make the ammonia magically disappear and not become nitrite. Which is essentially why I came to the forum. That is the question I am trying to answer. Can ammonia drop to 0 with no nitrites or nitrates showing up?

 

My opinion, likely it's an operator error on the testing. the prime will lock up the ammonia for 48 hours, but it won't remove it, it should still test being there. if you get a funny reading, slow down, follow the directions and do it again.

the ammonia you put in there is still in there, unless it's been converted to nitrites, which would show up on a nitrite test if it was.

it takes 30+ days to full cycle. I don't trust the bacteria in a bottle stuff to speed anything up, and have never used it.

if a fishless cycle, there's no need for the prime except for chlorine removal and any dechlorinator method would work., there's no need to bind the ammonia because there's no fish to get hurt by it.

Most folks cycling would keep ammonia at 1ppm-2ppm tops. when you get up to 3ppm+ you can get cycle lock (stall) and nothing will happen at all. too much ammonia is a bad thing also it doesn't go faster at all.

You know you put the ammonia in there, it's still in there it didn't magically disappear and it didn't become nitrites.
I think you need to do a water change to reduce the ammonia below 2ppm and stay below 2ppm and probably try to be a little more patient.

LOL. I wish you the best of luck, seriously I do, but it takes time and patience, there really isn't a shortcut unless you are starting with a live bacteria colony off of another tanks filter.

pH drop, like a substrate causing it to lower, can convert Ammonia to Ammonium temporarily, still though the test should test for total ammonia, you would still see it on the test. whether is ammonia or ammonium.

It's not operator error. I've done these tests for many years and cycled many tanks. It could be a bad test kit.

Some responses I'm getting seem to suggest that something can make the ammonia magically disappear and not become nitrite. Which is essentially why I came to the forum. That is the question I am trying to answer. Can ammonia drop to 0 with no nitrites or nitrates showing up?

I had a confusing first cycle as my ammonia seemed to have disappeared after adding in the bacteria balls. My tank is literally freshly cycled and has had fish in it for 2 weeks now.

With the litreral hundreds of different strains if nitrfying bacteria out there not all brands are equal. If at first something seems off change the approach is all I can suggest.

Take what people say with a grain of salt. I had people tell me my water parameters were not in check because I had ich. I do 2 water changes a week and vacuum gravel outside of these changes. So there is a good chance it's not operator error and an external factor needs to be addressed (I had ich from something i added to the tank, it cleared up in under 1 week) . It's just easier for someone to chime in and tell you you don't know how to do it right. Hahaha.

Best of luck.

 

It's not operator error. I've done these tests for many years and cycled many tanks. It could be a bad test kit.

Some responses I'm getting seem to suggest that something can make the ammonia magically disappear and not become nitrite. Which is essentially why I came to the forum. That is the question I am trying to answer. Can ammonia drop to 0 with no nitrites or nitrates showing up?

You know.... there is a slight chance the bacteria in the bottle actually works, and it was in the process of converting the ammonia to nitrites, but hadn't finished the conversion. Sometimes the processes happen simultaneously where you have ammonia down, Nitrites up, sometimes, one disappears and takes more time for it to reappear as nitrate.

I don't use the bacterial boosters, and I'm skeptical of those products, but who knows, maybe it works. and the bacteria was working on the first dose of ammonia and it wasn't present in the ppm of the water, being converted to nitrites, but not a nitrite yet either and that's how it disappeared?

I do think it's possible for Ammonia to be in process of conversion, but not nitrite yet, and be neither ammonia or nitrite for a period of time, it doesn't have to happen simultaneously, or in a trickle, especially when using bacteria starters.

At least in theory I think the possibility exists and sounds plausible.

 

You know.... there is a slight chance the bacteria in the bottle actually works, and it was in the process of converting the ammonia to nitrites, but hadn't finished the conversion. Sometimes the processes happen simultaneously where you have ammonia down, Nitrites up, sometimes, one disappears and takes more time for it to reappear as nitrate.

I don't use the bacterial boosters, and I'm skeptical of those products, but who knows, maybe it works. and the bacteria was working on the first dose of ammonia and it wasn't present in the ppm of the water, being converted to nitrites, but not a nitrite yet either and that's how it disappeared?

I do think it's possible for Ammonia to be in process of conversion, but not nitrite yet, and be neither ammonia or nitrite for a period of time, it doesn't have to happen simultaneously, or in a trickle, especially when using bacteria starters.

At least in theory I think the possibility exists and sounds plausible.

I did a lot of reading on this and there are a lot of different strains of nitryfing bacteria. Some will work rapidly and die off. Giving the illusion of a 1 day cycle. They work great to address poor maintenance and ammonia spikes but not very practical for cycling. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing which type of strain your using other than trial and error or accurate manufacturer data....kind of like how there are hundreds of strains of yeast for different applications. The same principles apply to nitryfing bacteria.

 

Trust your tests. They are correct. You are learning through testing what many of us know, and you will find it all throughout the aquarium world that people have come to the same conclusions. Many threads on Fish Lore describe the exact same thing you are seeing. What I propose is this:

- Bacteria in a bottle do reduce ammonia levels almost immediately.

- Bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrate, and then also consume the nitrate. Lot's of tanks of Fishlore have 0 ppm nitrates. Your bottled bacteria is capable of this as you see.

- You still have to grow the bacteria that will live in your aquarium. This takes time and often results in a bacteria bloom that you can see. This will happen if you use the bacteria in a bottle or not. The timelines are highly variable. It happens in an unpredictable way. So the tests are very noisy, and it is hard to get a high enough signal to noise ratio to really tell what is happening. This is life.

- So in a fishless cycle there may not be any point to using the bacteria to reduce ammonia since there is no fish in there to protect. The cycle will establish on its own timeline any ways with the bacteria local to your environment.

- Prime is a dechlorinator. Same chemical as other dechlorinators. It has no measurable effect on ammonia and does not claim to. The manufacturer explicitly says it does not convert ammonia into ammonium and chemical tests show that to be true. The claim is that Prime somehow protects the fish from ammonia, but this has not been shown. I have seen lots of fish die as people think Prime is protecting them. In fact it does nothing to protect the fish and should not be used in this way. In the mean time, a water change to reduce ammonia levels, or use of the bacteria in a bottle does protect the fish.

Trust your experiment. You guys are doing real science!

 

Thanks so much!

So the non-nitrifying heterotrophs are/were consuming the ammonia?

Most likely. They can consume ammonia very quickly, provided they also have organic substrates to feed on - which wood can very easily provide. This seems to happen pretty often in such cases.

If so, do I need to do water changes to get them out of the water or will they eventually die off and be replaced with nitrifying bacteria?

Unless there is an absence of organic matter, the heterotrophs will not die off. This is not really a situation that can easily be handled though. I don't actually have a personal answer to this yet, because to avoid the situation I always cycle a tank without any organic matter (whether it is dead like driftwood or alive like plants), and only use pure ammonia to ensure the nitrifiers are established. I guess what I'd do then is take the spiderwood out, do a big water change, then go from there - and then once cycled add the spiderwood back in, but it does sound like a pain lol.

I do think it's possible for Ammonia to be in process of conversion, but not nitrite yet, and be neither ammonia or nitrite for a period of time, it doesn't have to happen simultaneously, or in a trickle, especially when using bacteria starters.

This is technically possible, but highly unlikely. Ammonia does convert to nitrite in technically a two step process, first forming hydroxylamine, then nitrite (or three steps potentially in some cases, with nitric oxide between hydroxylamine and nitrite, it's complicated, not important). However in practice it is essentially a single step process, at least when it comes to our viewing of the process. With the amount of ammonia oxidized here, it would practically be impossible to not see nitrite if nitrification was occurring.

I did a lot of reading on this and there are a lot of different strains of nitryfing bacteria. Some will work rapidly and die off. Giving the illusion of a 1 day cycle. They work great to address poor maintenance and ammonia spikes but not very practical for cycling. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing which type of strain your using other than trial and error.

What people are talking about here is that the bacteria are actually not nitrifying bacteria, but rather non-nitrifying heterotrophs, which quickly uses up ammonia as a nitrogen source but then starves. Nitrifying bacteria do not consume ammonia and then die off, there is no biological reason for that to happen.

 

Most likely. They can consume ammonia very quickly, provided they also have organic substrates to feed on - which wood can very easily provide. This seems to happen pretty often in such cases.

Unless there is an absence of organic matter, the heterotrophs will not die off. This is not really a situation that can easily be handled though. I don't actually have a personal answer to this yet, because to avoid the situation I always cycle a tank without any organic matter (whether it is dead like driftwood or alive like plants), and only use pure ammonia to ensure the nitrifiers are established. I guess what I'd do then is take the spiderwood out, do a big water change, then go from there - and then once cycled add the spiderwood back in, but it does sound like a pain lol.

This is technically possible, but highly unlikely. Ammonia does convert to nitrite in technically a two step process, first forming hydroxylamine, then nitrite (or three steps potentially in some cases, with nitric oxide between hydroxylamine and nitrite, it's complicated, not important). However in practice it is essentially a single step process, at least when it comes to our viewing of the process. With the amount of ammonia oxidized here, it would practically be impossible to not see nitrite if nitrification was occurring.

What people are talking about here is that the bacteria are actually not nitrifying bacteria, but rather non-nitrifying heterotrophs, which quickly uses up ammonia as a nitrogen source but then starves. Nitrifying bacteria do not consume ammonia and then die off, there is no biological reason for that to happen.

Thanks for clarification on this.

 

I’m by no means an expert, but I can tell you what I think based on the two tanks that I’ve cycled.

typically, the cycling process is going to take weeks, if not over a month to complete. Since you don’t have any real plants, and the bacteria colony has not had enough time to establish itself within the filter, something else must be taking away the ammonia. I also used fritz denitrifying bacteria before, and it took several weeks to get established even still.

how much of the Prime did you use? It does in fact detoxify ammonia, so that is what is affecting your levels, I am guessing. One full cap is enough to detoxify 50 gallons of water, since you are using a 20 gallon it is possible you added enough prime to constantly wipe out the new ammonia you have been introducing.

 

I really appreciate all the responses!

I think I'll do the following:

1. Remove the driftwood.
2. Do a large water change.
3. Add ammonia slowly until I get to 2 ppm.
4. Monitor ammonia daily.
5. Make sure I follow up here with what I find.

Thanks again!

 

Since its been a while since you cycled a tank, there is this cool thing that happens after the tank gets really cloudy. It suddenly gets crystal clear! I love that part. Hope you guys get to see that.

 

Update

Day 5: I performed a 90% water change and removed the boxwood. Then added ammonia to get to ~5-6 ppm.

Day 6: Ammonia ~5-6ppm. Nitrites 0ppm Nitrates 0ppm. Added 1/2 dose Fritz Zyme 7. Water stayed clear.

Day 7: Ammonia ~4-5ppm. Nitrites maybe .10ppm Nitrates 0ppm. Water stayed clear.

Day 8: Ammonia ~4ppm. Nitrites .25ppm Nitrates 5ppm (See photo). Water stayed clear.

I think I'm on the right track now. I just have to stay patient. Thanks again!

 

how much of the Prime did you use? It does in fact detoxify ammonia, so that is what is affecting your levels, I am guessing. One full cap is enough to detoxify 50 gallons of water, since you are using a 20 gallon it is possible you added enough prime to constantly wipe out the new ammonia you have been introducing.

It will not effect the ammonia readings. It does not "wipe out" Ammonia. The ammonia test reading will be the same whether you use Prime or not.

 

It will not effect the ammonia readings. It does not "wipe out" Ammonia. The ammonia test reading will be the same whether you use Prime or not.

As far as I know, it will absolutely *affect* ammonia readings. Those liquid kits are measuring “free” ammonia, not bound ammonia, like you would have after using products like Prime.

It will not effect the ammonia readings. It does not "wipe out" Ammonia. The ammonia test reading will be the same whether you use Prime or not.

 

As far as I know, it will absolutely *affect* ammonia readings. Those liquid kits are measuring “free” ammonia, not bound ammonia, like you would have after using products like Prime.

It does not affect ammonia readings. People have measured ammonia with these (API) test kits before and after and there are no material difference.

And FishDin is also correct in that it does not wipe out the ammonia either, it is still biologically available for the nitrifiers to utilize.

 

Update

Day 5: I performed a 90% water change and removed the boxwood. Then added ammonia to get to ~5-6 ppm.

Day 6: Ammonia ~5-6ppm. Nitrites 0ppm Nitrates 0ppm. Added 1/2 dose Fritz Zyme 7. Water stayed clear.

Day 7: Ammonia ~4-5ppm. Nitrites maybe .10ppm Nitrates 0ppm. Water stayed clear.

Day 8: Ammonia ~4ppm. Nitrites .25ppm Nitrates 5ppm (See photo). Water stayed clear.

I think I'm on the right track now. I just have to stay patient. Thanks again!

For me, at some point it stalled for about a week. If this happens to you just sit tight and wait. It will take care of itself.

Happy to see it's going good for you.

 

Day 9: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Is that normal? Nitrates still at 5-10ppm

Day 10: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Nitrates still at 5-10ppm. Ammonia is approaching 1ppm. If it goes to 0, do I need to add more? (See pictures)

 

it takes 30+ days to full cycle. I don't trust the bacteria in a bottle stuff to speed anything up, and have never used it.

To be honest, my cycle was completed within a week without any bottle bacteria or anything. It doesn't necessarily always have to take more than 30 days, although it's more common than not. Then again, this thread has shown that having organic matter like driftwood and plants can lead to different results, which I did have.

Day 9: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Is that normal?

Day 10: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Nitrates still at 5-10ppm. Ammonia is approaching 1ppm. If it goes to 0, do I need to add more? (See pictures)

For Day 9: in my experience (only 1 cycle) nitrite tends to fall slower than ammonia.

Day 10: I'd only add the ammonia once both ammonia and nitrite fall to 0. That way you get an accurate estimate of how quickly 1/2ppm ammonia can be converted.

 

Day 9: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Is that normal? Nitrates still at 5-10ppm

Day 10: Ammonia still falling slowly. Nitrites rising even slower. Nitrates still at 5-10ppm. Ammonia is approaching 1ppm. If it goes to 0, do I need to add more? (See pictures)

For me things started slow then all of a sudden bam no ammonia, some nitrites and some nitrates. Took a couple weeks and then it started cycling again and finished cycling.

 

What an unfortunate roller coaster this has been. Feel free to move this to another section or should I start a new thread?

Finished the cycle this past Friday. 1ppm Ammonia converted to nitrites and then to Nitrates in 24 hrs. Everyone was excited. Did a large water change to remove some nitrates. Grabbed 9 fish and 7 small shrimp on Saturday afternoon. As of 7am on Monday all the fish were dead. Not a single shrimp has died. I have never lost a fish during acclimation. Ever. I drove 3 hours to grab discuss from a breeder and then drove back and didn't lose a single fish. There is a possibility I introduced a contaminant by adding a DIY 3D background, but not all the pieces are adding up. I'll lay out the details here and hear what everyone has to say.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 20g
What type of water are you using in your tank? (tap, well, RO/DI, other): Tap
When did you start cycling the tank? Tank is cycled
What type of filtration are you running on this tank? (sponge, HOB, canister, other): HOB Aqua clear 30
If canister or HOB list all the media you are running in it. (manufactured cartridges, sponge, etc.): Sponge, Ceramic rings, bioballs
Do you have good water agitation/surface movement?: Yes, there is also a bubbler
What is the water temperature?: 78F
What is(was) the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts): 7 Green Jade shrimp, 2 Apistos (Dwarf Cockatoo), 2 L129 Plecos, 7 chili rasboras.
How often do you feed them and how much?: I tried a little food after 24 hours.
Are they showing signs of distress? (fish hiding, staying at the top, looking pale, torn fins, etc): After putting the fish in my tank the rasboras looked rough after only one night (~12 hours). Staying toward the top, not much movement, heavy labored breathing. After 24hrs the Apistos started to do the same. Swimming very still at either the bottom or the top of the tank. Plecos looked fine, but how can you really tell. This morning, after a little over 36 hours in the tank, all the fish were dead.
Do you have live plants in the tank?: No. Fake plants.
Gravel: Estes Spectrastone natural look.
Heater: Eheim Thermocontrol 75W
Are you using a dechlorinater and if so, which one?: Tetra Aquasafe
Are you using bottled bacteria and if so, which one?: I used Fritz Zyme 7 to start the cylce.
Did you add seeded media from a previously cycled tank?: No

*Parameters - Very Important
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Tank water: (Results were obtained the morning we found all fish dead)
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5-10ppm
pH: 7.8
Temp: 78F

Tap water:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
pH: 8.0

Elmers Aquarium Center: (I asked one of the reps in the store)
pH: 7.6
Temp: 78F

As I stated in an earlier post, I have some experience in the hobby. I have successfully kept Discus, Tetras, Corys, Shrimp, Pea puffer, Apistos, Octos, and probably some I'm missing. I had a ton of enthusiasm to get back into the hobby and the kids were excited too, but after this, I was ready to put the tank on craigslist. I felt/feel pretty embarrassed. After talking it through with the kiddos, they are interested in giving it another go. I have a few theories based on my research and I wanted to present them. Remember to consider that I haven't lost a single shrimp to date (54ish hours). They actually look healthy. Good coloring, eating, active. They are throwing me off a bit.

1. We built a DIY 3D background. We sculpted styrofoam and then painted with drylock original. The background is secured to the back of the tank with RTV 108 silicone. The last coat of drylok went on 12 days before we filled the tank and the RTV cured for 11 days before we filled tank. It is my understanding that the RTV100 series is used throughout the aquarium hobby and is proven to be safe. I have read accounts of people adding water and fish in as little as 24hours after using RTV100 series. Same, but to a lesser extent with drylok. I cam across many instances of people using this for 3d background with no effect on the livestock. I am going to remove the background because that just makes too much sense, but I am not convinced this is the issue.
-Is drylok the issue?
-Could it be a bad batch of silicone?
-What contaminant from this could wipe out the fish that quick, but not the shrimp?

2. Oxygen deprivation. Even though I think I have enough surface agitation and I have a bubbler, it could be this. The symptoms match and it might not impact the shrimp as much.
-Could it be that I have too little oxygen for the fish but enough for the Shrimp?
-How can I test this?

3. Osmotic shock. When I researched situations like my own, this term kept coming up along with pH shock. I do not think I had pH shock because the store rep was confident and clear that their pH is 7.6. My Tank is 7.8. The basic principle of osmotic shock seems to be that my water hardness could be so different from Elmer's that when I put the fish in the tank, the fish's bodies are either flooded with water (My water is softer than Elmer's) or minerals (My water is harder than Elmer's).
-Anyone have any knowledge of this? Or experience with it?
-I'm going to test the water hardness tonight and ask Elmer's what their hardness is.

4.Elmer's stock is bad. At first I thought this, but have since ruled it out. I've made numerous trips to Elmer's as we were cycling the tank and never once did I have an issue with the way the tanks looked. Healthy colorful fish. Clean tanks. Tons of staff. Elmer's has a great reputation in the Pittsburgh area.

Any and all help/advice is welcome.

Thanks in advance!

 

you'd need a GH and KH test kit to find out if it's applicable to osmotic shock or not. Osmotic Shock in aquariums is uncommon and not likely to be the cause of your fish dying. It occurs within a few hours and the fish usually die within 24 hours. Bacteria also grow faster in soft water and chemicals are more toxic to fish kept in soft water.

Maybe a combination of something in the background and soft water?

for sure it's a shock thats doing it to the fish, shirmp have amazing immune systems and are bottom feeders Which and what.... not sure without either more testing, or experimentation by trying to adjust a parameter to see if it corrects the issue. but testing would help to rule out non-issues.

You could try another fish store and see what happens with new fish to rule out Elmer's stock being the culprit. But I feel like you'd get the same result. kind of odd it's killing the fish but not the shrimp for sure. ...

 

Please check the oxygen level of your source water. Some folks have very low oxygen from the tap.
You can check with this test: sera oxygen-Test (O2) | sera

You may have done a large water change with low oxygen tap water, it is possible that the fish suffocated. It takes at least 24 hours of agitation to bring the 02 levels up. I had this problem from my well water until I figured it out. If I changed 80% of the water with tap (well) water the fish die.

Some municipal water sources are low in oxygen because of where they get their source water. Oxygen is not usually tested on a standard drinking water test.

So I aerate the water in large 50 gallon drums for the fish.

Suffocation causes many fish to go to the surface and try to drink the top layer of water. They breath hard. They become lethargic, and die. If too much damage is done, they will die even if the 02 levels are brought back up.

 

Please check the oxygen level of your source water. Some folks have very low oxygen from the tap.
You can check with this test: sera oxygen-Test (O2) | sera

You may have done a large water change with low oxygen tap water, it is possible that the fish suffocated. It takes at least 24 hours of agitation to bring the 02 levels up. I had this problem from my well water until I figured it out. If I changed 80% of the water with tap (well) water the fish die.

Some municipal water sources are low in oxygen because of where they get their source water. Oxygen is not usually tested on a standard drinking water test.

So I aerate the water in large 50 gallon drums for the fish.

Suffocation causes many fish to go to the surface and try to drink the top layer of water. They breath hard. They become lethargic, and die. If too much damage is done, they will die even if the 02 levels are brought back up.

Wow. So two major updates.

1. Picked up a dissolved oxygen test kit. DO test kit.

7 ppm in the tank I put the shrimp in.
Filled up a bucket and let the gases settle from the tap
Tested....10 ppm
added api dechlorinator. Tested....5 ppm..huh?
added 3 more doses of dechlorinator. Tested. 0ppm.
I repeated multiple times and repeated multiple times with a different bucket of tap water. All results stayed the same.

Is my dechlorinator temporarily deoxygenating my tank?

2. Went to elmers to discuss my issue and noticed a medical cross sticker on the pleco tank. They had ick really bad.

I have no clue what do. Lol

 

Wow. So two major updates.

1. Picked up a dissolved oxygen test kit. DO test kit.

7 ppm in the tank I put the shrimp in.
Filled up a bucket and let the gases settle from the tap
Tested....10 ppm
added api dechlorinator. Tested....5 ppm..huh?
added 3 more doses of dechlorinator. Tested. 0ppm.
I repeated multiple times and repeated multiple times with a different bucket of tap water. All results stayed the same.

Is my dechlorinator temporarily deoxygenating my tank?

2. Went to elmers to discuss my issue and noticed a medical cross sticker on the pleco tank. They had ick really bad.

I have no clue what do. Lol

Yes. Dechorinator does that. It's important to follow accurate dosing of declorinators so the effect is minimal. As I understand it all "reducing agents" can lower o2 levels by binding with the dissolved oxygen when there's either too much added, or when there's simply more of it than is needed. As I understand it though if the recommended dosing as indicated for the reducing agent is followed it's SUPPOSED to be minimal effect, like 0.5ppm depletion for 15 minutes or so which shouldn't bother fish. 8-10ppm is fine, it's when you get below 5 the fish have a hard time. 7 is survivable.
Smaller things use less oxygen than bigger so shrimp could hang below 5 while fish might struggle gasp and die.

Try dosing and then testing after 15 minutes and 30 minutes if the number comes back up. If that doesn't help you might have to age out chlorine from your water instead , it takes 24 hours of standing for water to dechlorinate but if chlorine levels are higher,, it can take longer.... or go as far as Frank the Fish Guy has to and aerate the water before using it in the tanks.

 

Your API dechlorinate is sodium thiosulfate: https://apifishcare.com/pdfs/API TAP WATER CONDITIONER_1625170479.pdf

OK, here is the way this works. When you add dechlorinator to your tap water, it will reduce the chlorine. But any excess dechlorinator will reduce oxygen as you have seen. You have to know how much dechlorinator to add to your water so that you are not adding extra.

https://www.chemscan.com/chlorination-de-chlorinataion.html

You can get a free chlorine test to find out how much chlorine is in your water. Then slowly add the dechlor until you read zero chlorine. Now you know how much dechlorinator to add to reduce only chlorine.

So there really is no way they can tell you how much dechlorinator to add since it depends on how much chlorine is in your water. This creates a lot of confusion when folks try to test how much dechlorinator is 'safe'. It depends on the water being tested.

In aquaculture, when water is dechlorinated, it is always followed by aeration before being used for fish.

 

Thanks to Frank the Fish guy and Sparky Jones. Good information that was new to me.

So when Seachem says it's ok to dose up to 5 times normal dosage, they really don't know.

If O2 is depleted by adding dechlorinator will it remain that way or will the O2 level return to normal if the water is left to sit or is agitated?

 

Depends how much dechlor you added. If there is still some dechlorinator in the water that is waiting for something to reduce, then the new oxygen will still get reduced until you use up the dechlorinator. But the oxygen will keep coming in and eventually use up all the excess dechlorinator. There is no set time on how long this will take since it depends on how much was added.

So with good aeration the oxygen will eventually come back. It may take 24-48 hours? It is not a rapid process. My barrels take 24 hours to go from 4 ppm to 8 ppm.

But oxygen can be added chemically immediately.

For emergencies there is this: https://www.sera.de/en/product/freshwater-aquarium/sera-o2-plus/