Using existing water to expedite cycling process

there's been alot of issues (water becomes muddy green, fin rot,etc) with my main tank lately so i decided to empty entire tank and did a full clean including cleaning the filters media. i understand this will kill all my existing BB and that's OK. I'm willing to undergo a fishless tank re-cycling again.

a few days ago i started adding some fish flakes/pellets. i checked this morning to see if ammonia has been release into the water due to decaying of foods. so far, it appears the ammonia level is 0. i added additional food and will check in the next 48-72hrs.

meanwhile those 3 goldfish were transferred to a small quarantine tank, which i do frequent WC. During this water change, which has 1.0 ppm ammonia, could i add this 'dirty' water to main tank to expedite the cycling process?

thanks

 

I'm not an expert but I have some follow up questions and possible advice....
When you did a full cleaning and you cleaned the filter media, did you clean the filter media with tap water? Tank water? It sounds like depending on what you did to clean you might not have killed all the BB and your tank might still be cycled.
I almost never replace my filter media. I usually just clean it with the tank water and put it back. As long as it stays wet (even if you used tap water) you most likely didn't kill off all your bacteria.
Check your nitrates and nitrites. That should give you a better idea of the tank is still full of BB.

there's been alot of issues (water becomes muddy green, fin rot,etc) with my main tank lately so i decided to empty entire tank and did a full clean including cleaning the filters media. i understand this will kill all my existing BB and that's OK. I'm willing to undergo a fishless tank re-cycling again.

a few days ago i started adding some fish flakes/pellets. i checked this morning to see if ammonia has been release into the water due to decaying of foods. so far, it appears the ammonia level is 0. i added additional food and will check in the next 48-72hrs.

meanwhile those 3 goldfish were transferred to a small quarantine tank, which i do frequent WC. During this water change, which has 1.0 ppm ammonia, could i add this 'dirty' water to main tank to expedite the cycling process?

thanks

I'm also thinking that if your QT tank ammonia is spiking and you are doing frequent water changes, why not just put the goldfish back in your display tank and do a fish in cycle? It sounds like there is a good chance you didn't lose all your BB when you cleaned. The BB don't usually reside in the water so like I said before, depending on how you cleaned your filter/substrate etc. The display might still have a lot of the BB still.

 

It won't hurt. It'll give the ammonia a bump. Using fish food is inexact and hard to gauge.

 

I'm not an expert but I have some follow up questions and possible advice....
When you did a full cleaning and you cleaned the filter media, did you clean the filter media with tap water? Tank water? It sounds like depending on what you did to clean you might not have killed all the BB and your tank might still be cycled.
I almost never replace my filter media. I usually just clean it with the tank water and put it back. As long as it stays wet (even if you used tap water) you most likely didn't kill off all your bacteria.
Check your nitrates and nitrites. That should give you a better idea of the tank is still full of BB.

I'm also thinking that if your QT tank ammonia is spiking and you are doing frequent water changes, why not just put the goldfish back in your display tank and do a fish in cycle? It sounds like there is a good chance you didn't lose all your BB when you cleaned. The BB don't usually reside in the water so like I said before, depending on how you cleaned your filter/substrate etc. The display might still have a lot of the BB still.

i did cleaned/rinsed with tap water so most likely everything good is killed.
the intention was to eliminate all the bad/toxic things inside the tank that could possibly cause issues.

the last/first time i did fish-in cycle (newbie at the time). they struggled, got several diseases, a few didn't make it.

also, this is a bare bottom tank so no gravel.

 

Don't bother with the fishless cycle. Just move your goldfish back to their large tank and do a fish-in cycle.

You're already subjecting them to a fish-in cycle in the small qt tank. They would be much better off going through a fish-in cycle in a larger tank.

 

i did cleaned/rinsed with tap water so most likely everything good is killed.
the intention was to eliminate all the bad/toxic things inside the tank that could possibly cause issues.

the last/first time i did fish-in cycle (newbie at the time). they struggled, got several diseases, a few didn't make it.

also, this is a bare bottom tank so no gravel.

I bet you still have some BB even with the cleaning you did. Probably killed a lot but not all.
I've always used gravel or sand in my tanks. I'm wondering if your fish would do better long term with a substrate? I can't say for sure (I'm not really familiar with the ins and outs of a bare bottom tank) but I'm thinking maybe long term you might have less problems if you used some gravel or sand? Just thinking it may help with the problems you have had. I could be wrong though...

 

Don't bother with the fishless cycle. Just move your goldfish back to their large tank and do a fish-in cycle.

You're already subjecting them to a fish-in cycle in the small qt tank. They would be much better off going through a fish-in cycle in a larger tank.

only problem is the main tank is 40G and requires much more effort to change 30-40% every few days vs. 30% on a 10G.

I bet you still have some BB even with the cleaning you did. Probably killed a lot but not all.
I've always used gravel or sand in my tanks. I'm wondering if your fish would do better long term with a substrate? I can't say for sure (I'm not really familiar with the ins and outs of a bare bottom tank) but I'm thinking maybe long term you might have less problems if you used some gravel or sand? Just thinking it may help with the problems you have had. I could be wrong though...

originally i had rocks and decorations in my main but i was discovering alot of food leftovers, poo and other things depositing underneath the rocks causing the water to be cloudy/dirty constantly. and it was harder to clean with the rocks so i decided just remove rocks/decors.

i'm trying to find the root cause of my goldfish constant fin rots. everytime i moved them to the qt tank, add meds/salt they get better. then when i put them back in main tank, fin rots recurs again. so decided to remove all water, cleaned out all filter media, everything, deep clean and start fresh (where am at now).

 

I think you are fooling yourself about the amount of water you need to change. It might seem like the 10g will take less water. But that's not the case.

In the end, the total volume of water that you change should work out pretty close to the same. Your fish will produce about the same amount of ammonia in either case. And it will take about the same amount of water to keep that ammonia diluted to safe levels.

The 40g might take 4 times more water per water change, but the 10g will require a water change 4 times more frequently. At the end of the week you will have moved the same amount of water. But you will have changed the water in the 10g every day, and only twice in the 40g.

And despite the fact that you are changing the same total amount of water, things will go wrong 4 times faster, and your margin for error will be 4 times smaller.

You can certainly do it your way. But I think you're doing it the hard way.

 

only problem is the main tank is 40G and requires much more effort to change 30-40% every few days vs. 30% on a 10G.

originally i had rocks and decorations in my main but i was discovering alot of food leftovers, poo and other things depositing underneath the rocks causing the water to be cloudy/dirty constantly. and it was harder to clean with the rocks so i decided just remove rocks/decors.

i'm trying to find the root cause of my goldfish constant fin rots. everytime i moved them to the qt tank, add meds/salt they get better. then when i put them back in main tank, fin rots recurs again. so decided to remove all water, cleaned out all filter media, everything, deep clean and start fresh (where am at now).

I'm new and doing a fish in cycle with 3 tanks... I think I have MTS. But that aside I've been using Seachem Prime(I recommend getting Seachem Safe as it is the powdered form and will last much longer and it's cheaper.) and have yet to lose fish since starting it as long as I dose it every 24 hours. The fish don't exhibit and signs of stress or disease., but then again I may be lucky. They eat play and don't have any signs of disease. I also use Stability but the effectiveness of that seems miniscule. Like almost undetectable. My Ammonia, Nitrite are pretty high at any given time, anywhere from 1.0-2.0 and .25-2.0 respectively. Without Prime these fish would no doubt be dead or dying. But I does Prime every day to make sure it's detoxifies the bad stuff but is still available for use by the BB. I only do water changes when I see Nitrates which a couple of my tanks are nearing the end of the cycle. It's been 2 weeks.

If they're getting diseased then the water is probably not agreeing with them and they're getting weaker from the stress. I agree with.

I think you are fooling yourself about the amount of water you need to change. It might seem like the 10g will take less water. But that's not the case.

In the end, the total volume of water that you change should work out pretty close to the same. Your fish will produce about the same amount of ammonia in either case. And it will take about the same amount of water to keep that ammonia diluted to safe levels.

The 40g might take 4 times more water per water change, but the 10g will require a water change 4 times more frequently. At the end of the week you will have moved the same amount of water. But you will have changed the water in the 10g every day, and only twice in the 40g.

And despite the fact that you are changing the same total amount of water, things will go wrong 4 times faster, and your margin for error will be 4 times smaller.

You can certainly do it your way. But I think you're doing it the hard way.

You will need to get rid of ammonia at the same rate anyhow but being in a smaller tank you will have to opt for more frequent changes and tests to keep up with the big bioload for messy goldfish. That also will delay your BB build up. Frequent water changes seem to slow the cycle process since you are literally removing food for the BB and letting it build back up just to change out the water again. I'm not sure how much slower but it stands to reason if you let it build up then the bacteria will build up enough to buffer against production and hit equilibrium, which is the whole point of the cycling. Hence, using Prime or Safe make sense when you are fish in cycling. I'd just get one of those aqueon bacteria balls as well. That product actually works really fast. I saw Nitrites within days of using that with ammonia already present. Of course you don't need to buy those things, they just make it stress free for you and the fish for a cost. Hope you have good luck though!

 

I'm new and doing a fish in cycle with 3 tanks... I think I have MTS. But that aside I've been using Seachem Prime(I recommend getting Seachem Safe as it is the powdered form and will last much longer and it's cheaper.) and have yet to lose fish since starting it as long as I dose it every 24 hours. The fish don't exhibit and signs of stress or disease., but then again I may be lucky. They eat play and don't have any signs of disease. I also use Stability but the effectiveness of that seems miniscule. Like almost undetectable. My Ammonia, Nitrite are pretty high at any given time, anywhere from 1.0-2.0 and .25-2.0 respectively. Without Prime these fish would no doubt be dead or dying. But I does Prime every day to make sure it's detoxifies the bad stuff but is still available for use by the BB. I only do water changes when I see Nitrates which a couple of my tanks are nearing the end of the cycle. It's been 2 weeks.

If they're getting diseased then the water is probably not agreeing with them and they're getting weaker from the stress. I agree with.

You will need to get rid of ammonia at the same rate anyhow but being in a smaller tank you will have to opt for more frequent changes and tests to keep up with the big bioload for messy goldfish. That also will delay your BB build up. Frequent water changes seem to slow the cycle process since you are literally removing food for the BB and letting it build back up just to change out the water again. I'm not sure how much slower but it stands to reason if you let it build up then the bacteria will build up enough to buffer against production and hit equilibrium, which is the whole point of the cycling. Hence, using Prime or Safe make sense when you are fish in cycling. I'd just get one of those aqueon bacteria balls as well. That product actually works really fast. I saw Nitrites within days of using that with ammonia already present. Of course you don't need to buy those things, they just make it stress free for you and the fish for a cost. Hope you have good luck though!

You are pretty lucky I would say. Prime will only help if ammonia and nitrites are a combined 1ppm. So .50 each. 1-2 ammonia is not a good thing and shouldn't be left at that without changing water. Prime really shouldn't be used in place of a water change. Ammonia and Nitrites should only get as high as .50 when doing a fish in cycle.

Testing for Nitrates to do a water change is a recipe for disaster. Testing for ammonia and nitrites is a much better way for help your fish. Nitrates dont even need to be tested during a cycle IMO. It is pretty much irrelevant until the ammonia and nitrites start dropping to zero. When you are changing water for high levels they will be low anyway.

 

I'm new and doing a fish in cycle with 3 tanks... I think I have MTS. But that aside I've been using Seachem Prime(I recommend getting Seachem Safe as it is the powdered form and will last much longer and it's cheaper.) and have yet to lose fish since starting it as long as I dose it every 24 hours. The fish don't exhibit and signs of stress or disease., but then again I may be lucky. They eat play and don't have any signs of disease. I also use Stability but the effectiveness of that seems miniscule. Like almost undetectable. My Ammonia, Nitrite are pretty high at any given time, anywhere from 1.0-2.0 and .25-2.0 respectively. Without Prime these fish would no doubt be dead or dying. But I does Prime every day to make sure it's detoxifies the bad stuff but is still available for use by the BB. I only do water changes when I see Nitrates which a couple of my tanks are nearing the end of the cycle. It's been 2 weeks.

If they're getting diseased then the water is probably not agreeing with them and they're getting weaker from the stress. I agree with.

You will need to get rid of ammonia at the same rate anyhow but being in a smaller tank you will have to opt for more frequent changes and tests to keep up with the big bioload for messy goldfish. That also will delay your BB build up. Frequent water changes seem to slow the cycle process since you are literally removing food for the BB and letting it build back up just to change out the water again. I'm not sure how much slower but it stands to reason if you let it build up then the bacteria will build up enough to buffer against production and hit equilibrium, which is the whole point of the cycling. Hence, using Prime or Safe make sense when you are fish in cycling. I'd just get one of those aqueon bacteria balls as well. That product actually works really fast. I saw Nitrites within days of using that with ammonia already present. Of course you don't need to buy those things, they just make it stress free for you and the fish for a cost. Hope you have good luck though!

Prime is an awesome product, but it shouldn’t be used in lieu of water changes.

 

Prime is an awesome product, but it shouldn’t be used in lieu of water changes.

I do! I do them every couple days. I test everyday to make sure the parameters aren't overtaking the Prime dosing. But I try to change at around 2ppm ammonia or nitrate so the cycle can complete. Or if nitrates are close to 40. Ammonia is almost 0 and nitrites are dropping... I can't wait till it's over.

So I thought it was good up to 5 times the normal dose? Or am I reading that wrong?

 

I do! I do them every couple days.

My Ammonia, Nitrite are pretty high at any given time, anywhere from 1.0-2.0 and .25-2.0 respectively. Without Prime these fish would no doubt be dead or dying.

Based on the ammonia and nitrite levels in your post above, changing water every couple days isn’t enough IMO.

My recommendation for fish-in cycles (using Prime) is generally to change enough water to keep the combined level of ammonia and nitrites at or below 0.50 ppm.

What is your pH level?

So I thought it was good up to 5 times the normal dose? Or am I reading that wrong?

From Seachem’s website. . . “To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used.
https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000125454-Info-Seachem-Prime-dosing-instructions

Notice the word emergency?

 

But I try to change at around 2ppm ammonia or nitrate so the cycle can complete.

I believe this is for a fishless cycle. Not for a tank with fish in it. That is dangerously high. .50 ammonia .50 nitrite is highest for a fish in cycle with the Prime.

 

Based on the ammonia and nitrite levels in your post above, changing water every couple days isn’t enough IMO.

My recommendation for fish-in cycles (using Prime) is generally to change enough water to keep the combined level of ammonia and nitrites at or below 0.50 ppm.

Just out of curiosity, what is your pH level?


From Seachem’s website. . . “To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used.
https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000125454-Info-Seachem-Prime-dosing-instructions

Notice the word emergency?

I have extremely soft water and that combined with the driftwood I have in there has my pH sitting around 6.8-6.6 depending on how long it's been in there. I know lower pH buffers the ammonia into ammonium but I'm not sure what the exact science and buffer capacity the lower pH can add. That could be a factor. The Nitrites I've had spike even to 5 for a day, which I promptly do a 50-60% water change and dose prime for the nitrites and ammonia in the tank. It sucks that API test only shows total Ammonia/ammonium but it's still a good benchmark.
Also, just discovered this. Here is a calculator for your actual ammonia/ammonium. Great resource and also .05 is when ammonia is harmful. From what mine says I only have .0029 ppt ammonia the rest of the 2.0ppm being ammonium. Salinity of most tap will be .5 ppm. My temperatures stay around 78-80F
Free Ammonia Calculator

I do believe doing a fish in cycle is an emergency. I'd rather they sit in inert nitrites and ammonia than go through the stress of massive water changes daily. Also giving the bacteria time to eat up all the food in the water and quickly establish that buffer the cycle is for the bioload in the tank. I figure doing it this way, especially with a resource like Prime or Safe, you could technically keep the food up for BB and cycle faster. Removing the water and food for the BB would slow the process down I feel since more food = more growth in any situation. Which again, means more unnecessary stress in water changes and water parameter changes for the fish who don't feel the affects of the elevated Nitrites and Ammonia. Not to mention the water itself. Water isn't freeeeee! Again I'm trusting Prime to work as advertised and I am monitoring all my fish almost hourly.

If I were doing this without Prime I wouldn't dream of the levels staying this way and do the recommended water changes every day 50% to keep levels down enough without over stressing the fish having water parameters fluctuate every day. Mollies poop a lot.

I believe this is for a fishless cycle. Not for a tank with fish in it. That is dangerously high. .50 ammonia .50 nitrite is highest for a fish in cycle with the Prime.

I have not notice any odd behavior in my fish. Yet. No illnesses, no sick fish. All seem healthy and showing normal behavior. So either I'm lucky, Seachem Prime works, or I'm in for a world of fishies dying soon. My 20 gallon today had .25 Ammonia/Ammonium 2.0 Nitrite and 40 Nitrate. Had to change water today. Much of this is an experiment/desperation in how to keep these fish alive healthiest. They are little lives, I'd like to be treated that way if the situation were reversed. Someone to try and figure out the best way to keep them alive without stressing them the **** out in a life they didn't ask for. Which as a new fish keeper I didn't know it would be this complicated lol.

 

I have extremely soft water and that combined with the driftwood I have in there has my pH sitting around 6.8-6.6 depending on how long it's been in there. I know lower pH buffers the ammonia into ammonium but I'm not sure what the exact science and buffer capacity the lower pH can add. That could be a factor.

I don’t disagree. . . Ammonia is less toxic at lower pH levels. But you didn’t mention the impact of pH on ammonia toxicity in your original post to this thread. . . The experience you shared in that post as “working” for you could be a disaster for a tank with higher pH.

Another factor or question you seem to be overlooking or at least didn’t mention in any of your posts. . . How do lower pH levels impact the toxicity of nitrite? Like ammonia, the toxicity of nitrite is related to or dependent on pH. Two forms of nitrite are present in water: the nitrite ion (NO2) and the more toxic nitrous acid (HNO2). The amount of each of these that will be present is pH dependent. . . As the pH decreases, the HNO2 form prevails and is more toxic.

I could go on with other factors that I think you’re overlooking, but my point is that following the approach you shared in your original post could be a recipe for disaster for many new fish keepers IMO.

I do believe doing a fish in cycle is an emergency. I'd rather they sit in inert nitrites and ammonia than go through the stress of massive water changes daily. Also giving the bacteria time to eat up all the food in the water and quickly establish that buffer the cycle is for the bioload in the tank. I figure doing it this way, especially with a resource like Prime or Safe, you could technically keep the food up for BB and cycle faster. Removing the water and food for the BB would slow the process down I feel since more food = more growth in any situation. Which again, means more unnecessary stress in water changes and water parameter changes for the fish who don't feel the affects of the elevated Nitrites and Ammonia.

Sorry, but again I disagree with several of your comments. . .
1. I don’t think a fish-in cycle is an emergency nor do I think a typical fish-in cycle falls within the scope of Seachem’s definition of emergency.
2. Because the vast majority of beneficial bacteria live in areas of the tank other than the water column, water changes will not affect the cycling process. And I don’t consider water changes to be an “unnecessary stress”, especially when ammonia and nitrites are present.
3. Leaving uneaten food in your tank will not speed up the cycling process. As a matter of fact, it could have the opposite effect.
4. Fish don’t feel the effects of elevated nitrites and ammonia. I’m not sure what to say about this other than I disagree.

I couldn’t agree more with your comment that water isn’t “freeee”. I change water like a madman and my water bill would likely make you cringe. But I chose this hobby and I’ll continue to do what you’d likely consider massive water changes. Had I wanted to avoid them or have a lower water bill, I would have gotten a gerbil instead of fish.

I could go on, but I won’t. Let me end by saying that I’ll continue to believe that Seachem knows more about Prime than I do and has a reason for using the word emergency in the dosing instructions. So I’ll stick with recommending single doses of Prime and frequent water changes for fish-in cycles.

 

Another factor or question you seem to be overlooking or at least didn’t mention in any of your posts. . . How do lower pH levels impact the toxicity of nitrite? Like ammonia, the toxicity of nitrite is related to or dependent on pH. Two forms of nitrite are present in water: the nitrite ion (NO2) and the more toxic nitrous acid (HNO2). The amount of each of these that will be present is pH dependent. . . As the pH decreases, the HNO2 form prevails and is more toxic.

I had no idea. I found a study also that pH in the low 6s can inhibit Nitrifying bacteria! Also decreases the bacterias efficiency as the pH gets to low or high.
The Influence of pH on the Nitrification Rate - Nitrogen Removal
Hmm I may have to change my approach based on what you are saying if the pH is getting too low. I may have to buffer the low pH. The cycle is almost done in my desktank. Ammonia is almost 0 and Nitrites are below .25 and Nitrates are climbing. The 20 gallon I have has almost 0 Ammonia and Nitrite at 2.0ppm and Nitrates at 20ppm.

3. Leaving uneaten food in your tank will not speed up the cycling process. As a matter of fact, it could have the opposite effect.

I didn't mean actual food lol. I meant the Nitrites and Ammonia. AKA Food for the BB.

4. Fish don’t feel the effects of elevated nitrites and ammonia. I’m not sure what to say about this other than I disagree.

And to this point, I'm not sure who would think the fish would not feel the affects of elevated ammonia or nitrites, but if they did they should get out of the hobby. I meant using the Prime to detox the compounds. The prime is supposed to make the Nitrogenous waste inert until the BB eat the stuff.

I could go on with other factors that I think you’re overlooking, but my point is that following the approach you shared in your original post could be a recipe for disaster for many new fish keepers IMO.

I'd love to hear them because I am willing to learn. But I would never recommend people do what I'm doing. I have specific things working for me and I chose to do things this way as it made the most logical sense to me. I have soft water only made softer with driftwood. I'm keeping hardier fish like betta, loaches, catfish, pleco, guppy. Molly would be the fish i couldn't keep as I'm planted and the molly at the lfs near me seem to get them from breeders with brackish conditions. But this hobby is almost never ending in what works and what doesn't as the variables can change from day to day. But that being said, 5 times the dose is an emergency. I've never had to dose that much. I've maybe doubled the dose at most. This works for me. What I am doing is walking a tight rope. That works for me and my experiences are from toeing this line due to my inexperience. But I am constantly learning and trying new things that work for me.

I could go on with other factors that I think you’re overlooking, but my point is that following the approach you shared in your original post could be a recipe for disaster for many new fish keepers IMO.

I am most definitely overlooking many things. As I have said I am new to the hobby but I also think new fish keepers WILL run into disasters because there is such a wide amount of knowledge they need to take in in such a short time as the toxins accumulate and the fishies looked so pretty in the store and the lfs staff are so nonchalant about the sale of these fish. A lucky few may slide through due to a lot of factors like stock and fast cycling without their knowledge and hardy fish breeds.

I don't appreciate the condescending tone of your post. I can only accumulate experience through what I read and what I do. So far what I am doing and what I am seeing is working. Now that may differ from your experience and may spell disaster for others, I am not advocating for this method as it's intense and requires so much balancing and monitoring. But like my experiences, you can only give me what you have experienced. I don't doubt that your method works for you and would in general for new fish keepers. But again, that is not something I want to do for my tanks.
I can't preface all my posts with everything I am doing as it's a lot. I don't believe I see other posters do this.
I suggest you not disregard new keepers or differing methods to things that may not have worked for you or you heard not work. Because like you I am using Seachems recommendations and other successful fish keepers recommendations. This is working for me. So you can disagree but you don't have to be sorry. There is nothing to be sorry about.
To me, keeping my fish alive and stress free is an emergency as I am keeping fish to see them happy and alive. My fish don't seem to enjoy the water changes and changes in parameters. So for them it is stressful. They do well in my tank with the method I am using. You are overlooking my fish stock and personalities. I'd rather not waste tons of water if I don't have too. So I disagree with constant water changes.
So I will continue to do what I am doing until I am shown evidence for otherwise. Dosing prime/safe to account for Nitrite and Ammonia/ammonium until I do a water change before the emergency dose or Nitrates rise.
But thank you for your input.

Apologies to OP for semi hijacking the thread. But the above is still helpful for experience and information to your post.