Urgent Help Needed, Sick Fish

Neppley

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 50 gallon
How long has the tank been running? Over 3 months
Does it have a filter? Yes three sponge filters
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 78 degrees Fahrenheit
What is the entire stocking of this tank? 8 Bosmanni Rainbowfish (Please list all fish and inverts.)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? 20 percent water change every other day
How much of the water do you change? 20 percent
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? I vacuum the substrate

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? Api master test kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:0 ppm
Nitrite:0 ppm
Nitrate:0 ppm
pH: 7.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Small bits of frozen and live food, most of the fish won't eat
How much do you feed your fish? Very small amounts because the fish won't eat
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Hikari
Do you feed frozen? Yes, frozen and live
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 3 to 4 weeks
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? A week or two ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Covered I white spots, darkening of color, fungus on back, very weak fish
Have you started any treatment for the illness? Yes, ichx
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Yes, fish's head turns black or brown, scales whiten or turn gray, fish are more aggressive

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now) I got these fish from a reputable breeder as my last batch had suddenly died also. The symptoms progress, covered with white spots, fungal infection, reddening under gills, black head, and then death. The disease does not leave with ich treatment either. I will give a pic of dead and currently alive fish. See how much the color changes with disease progression?
 

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ChrissFishes01

I would personally treat with salt, rather aggressively. You'd have to remove your live plants to do so, but it'll treat most external ailments.

I'd start with 1 tbsp of salt per 2 gallons of water, and increase it to 1 tbsp of salt per 1 gallon of water after a few days if needed.
 

FishDin

Sounds like your fish are under a lot of stress. One thing I noticed is that you have zero nitrates. That doesn't happen in a cycled tank. You had nitrates when you cycled it I assume.

Your tank is only 3 months old and you've had 2 groups of fish die in that time. This suggests the tank was never properly cycled (just guessing here).

How did you cyckle the tank? What was the ammonia source? How long did it take?
 

A201

Looks like a bacteral infection to me. The fungus is likely a secondary infection. Fungus feeds on the dead tissue destroyed by the bacteria.
Either the Rainbows are already infected when purchased or there exists an underlying negative factor in your tank that is weakening the Rainbows to the point of susceptibility.
Bacteral infections are notoriously difficult to cure.
I no longer recommend traditional antibiotics as many countries have banned them for aquarium use.
Petco sells Microbe Lift Artemiss, which is a botanical product w/ antibiotic properties. You might give that product a try.
 

Neppley

Sounds like your fish are under a lot of stress. One thing I noticed is that you have zero nitrates. That doesn't happen in a cycled tank. You had nitrates when you cycled it I assume.

Your tank is only 3 months old and you've had 2 groups of fish die in that time. This suggests the tank was never properly cycled (just guessing here).

How did you cyckle the tank? What was the ammonia source? How long did it take?
Sorry but to be honest this assumption is completely wrong, I cycled my tank for over 2 months, the other group of fish that died were the same species. I am doing 20 percent every other day, going to up it to 20 percent every day, thats why there is no nitrates. The ammonia source was a couple pinches of fish food when I first cycled it. I even double checked it with plants. So yes it was properly cycled. I have over 50 tanks currently cycled, so no it wasn't the problem of having one tank. Thanks for your concern, but I do not appreciate when people come to conclusions of how I keep my fish. If you wish to give me advice on what to treat my fish with, I would like that.
 

SparkyJones

Sorry but to be honest this assumption is completely wrong, I cycled my tank for over 2 months, the other group of fish that died were the same species. I am doing 20 percent every other day, going to up it to 20 percent every day, thats why there is no nitrates. The ammonia source was a couple pinches of fish food when I first cycled it. I even double checked it with plants. So yes it was properly cycled. I have over 50 tanks currently cycled, so no it wasn't the problem of having one tank. Thanks for your concern, but I do not appreciate when people come to conclusions of how I keep my fish. If you wish to give me advice on what to treat my fish with, I would like that.
if you have 50 tanks why would you spend 2 months cycling a tank when you could just use cycled media from any of the 50 tanks you have cycled and save yourself about 61 days of time......
Anyways, this is a sick fish.

836069-a4e8b746139c168a48a2ffdde6f71ebb.jpg
from what I can see, looks like Ich, and looks like a bacterial infection also.
Can you rule out aeromonas, pseudonomas, flexibacter columnaris, and finally mycobacterium?

I wouldn't necessarily count on using a Ich treatment once, to eradicate the ich problem some people have to run tow treatments back to back to back in order for it to get rid of it.

I'd suggest trying a gram positive and a gram negative antibiotic, (broad spectrum if available) and continuing the ich treatment. as you said this has been going on for a week or two, so there really isn't time to try one or the other, and this will also likely kill your cycle, but keep doing the water changes and medicating as directed to with the antibiotic you end up using. There looks lie Ich in the picture, but the rest of it is internal and external bacterial infection. and rather than guess at it being gram positive or gram negative and possible be wrong, just treat for both for a chance to save the fish, they won't last much longer untreated.

it probably started with the first batch and bacteria/ich in the tank and stress in adjusting for the fish, and now it's just in the tank, probably just as much of it in your sponge filters as nitrifying bacteria at this point and each dead fish is going to be putting more of it into the tank.

And if the antibiotics kill the cycle off, hey, you have 50 tanks to jump start this one off of again and have an instant cycle, so should be a problem.

this is why you quarantine new fish so this doesn't get all over your tanks and fishroom. if you lose 8 fish in one tank or 50 fish in one tank, it's a lot better than hundreds of fish in 50 tanks.

if you lose these fish, a full teardown and sanitize is in order, AND this time, seriously man, just jump start it off of media from another cycled tank, don't kill yourself cycling! :)
 

MacZ

this is why you quarantine new fish so this doesn't get all over your tanks and fishroom. if you lose 8 fish in one tank or 50 fish in one tank, it's a lot better than hundreds of fish in 50 tanks.

if you lose these fish, a full teardown and sanitize is in order, AND this time, seriously man, just jump stat it off of media from another cycled tank, don't kill yourself cycling! :)
I agree, although I'd say: Put the fish that are left down if another round of parasite medication still won't do it. I think they are beyond saving.

I would for sure not buy from that source anymore.
 

Neppley

Ok great thanks for the help. Would melafix work?
 

MacZ

Ok great thanks for the help. Would melafix work?
No. It's just a snake oil.
 

Neppley

Ok, any other meds I should dose?
 

MacZ

As Sparky said, another round of ich medication (not Ich-X) and if you're willing to risk it an antibiotic that targets gram negative AND gram positive bacteria.
Before you ask: Ich-X contains methanol which is an unnecessary component and only makes the stuff harder on the fish. Get something with just formaldehyde and malachite green, those are the imortant ingredients.
And decide yourself which first. Ich or antibiotics, not at the same time.

I personally would have to throw in the towel at this point, I would need a prescription for antibiotics and it would take me at least two to four weeks and at least 200€. So it would take longer than the fish have and more than could I afford at the moment.

And even if not the chances are slim.
 

Neppley

Ok thanks. The other ich medication I have on hand is rid ich plus, would this work? And should I stop dosing ichx now?
 

MacZ

The other ich medication I have on hand is rid ich plus, would this work?
What's in it? I don't speak brand names. ;)
And should I stop dosing ichx now?
You started the second round already. Yeah, well. Then stick to it.
 

Neppley

What's in it? I don't speak brand names. ;)

You started the second round already. Yeah, well. Then stick to it.
I've actually been waiting for you to tell me what to do so I haven't started dosing it for the second round. It has formaldehyde and zinc free chloride salt of malachite green
 

MacZ

Now I'm confused, actually. You wrote "stop dosing". Doesn't that mean you have a round of treatment running? Or did I miss it and you have still the first round going?
In any case, finish the treatment round as per instructions, then do a high volume waterchange (80%), give the fish a day to breathe and decide yourself which of the options noted above you want to follow. I can tell you how to do something, give you instructions for a single step in such cases, but I only give options for the steps you can take. Decisions are yours to make.

It has formaldehyde and zinc free chloride salt of malachite green
Boils down to what I meant.
 

Neppley

Sounds great, thanks!
if you have 50 tanks why would you spend 2 months cycling a tank when you could just use cycled media from any of the 50 tanks you have cycled and save yourself about 61 days of time......
Anyways, this is a sick fish.

from what I can see, looks like Ich, and looks like a bacterial infection also.
Can you rule out aeromonas, pseudonomas, flexibacter columnaris, and finally mycobacterium?

I wouldn't necessarily count on using a Ich treatment once, to eradicate the ich problem some people have to run tow treatments back to back to back in order for it to get rid of it.

I'd suggest trying a gram positive and a gram negative antibiotic, (broad spectrum if available) and continuing the ich treatment. as you said this has been going on for a week or two, so there really isn't time to try one or the other, and this will also likely kill your cycle, but keep doing the water changes and medicating as directed to with the antibiotic you end up using. There looks lie Ich in the picture, but the rest of it is internal and external bacterial infection. and rather than guess at it being gram positive or gram negative and possible be wrong, just treat for both for a chance to save the fish, they won't last much longer untreated.

it probably started with the first batch and bacteria/ich in the tank and stress in adjusting for the fish, and now it's just in the tank, probably just as much of it in your sponge filters as nitrifying bacteria at this point and each dead fish is going to be putting more of it into the tank.

And if the antibiotics kill the cycle off, hey, you have 50 tanks to jump start this one off of again and have an instant cycle, so should be a problem.

this is why you quarantine new fish so this doesn't get all over your tanks and fishroom. if you lose 8 fish in one tank or 50 fish in one tank, it's a lot better than hundreds of fish in 50 tanks.

if you lose these fish, a full teardown and sanitize is in order, AND this time, seriously man, just jump start it off of media from another cycled tank, don't kill yourself cycling! :)
The reason I cycle them all separately is because a lot of my tanks are filled with wild type bettas or bristlenose or guppy breeding tanks that are massively planted and have none or little filter media in order not to stress the fish, so most of the media in my tanks need to stay in those tanks.
Thanks so much for your help, though!!
 

Did You Know...

For those of us with MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome) we need to be careful and not cross-contaminate our other tanks. Tanks and Plants wrote an article on:
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