Unusual behavior in 3 African Cichlids moved to new tank

I moved 7 cichlids from one 90 G to another of the same size. I thought the first tank, purchased on Craigslist, with 20 fish was overstocked. Also two relocated peacocks were being targeted by a pair of yellow labs. The 7 got along fine until I added 6 small cichlids. Pet Supplies Plus identified them only as African Cichlids, I’m guessing they’re peacocks. The three largest fish from the old tank, a red zebra, blue dragon, and a third I can’t ID, are acting weird. They swim up and down near the glass, at either side.

I covered the exterior with first a standard printed tank background film and then a solid black. Neither reduced the interior reflections. So I kinda blocked part of one ended with a silk ficus that suctions to the glass & ordered more which should arrive tomorrow.

is there more I can do?

 

They are "glass surfing". This is common for these guys when introduced to a new space.

Do they eat?
Do they poop?
Turn the lights off and let them chill.

They will be fine.
Send some pics if you want some IDs.

 

Yes, they‘re eating fine and presumably pooping. I just turned off the overhead lights. significantly dimmed the tank, but some light entered from window to the right.
Thanks, seems to have calmed them down some.

thanks for offer to ID. I’ll take pics later. Kids at Pet Supplies Plus had no clue and corporate ignored my email. Some are yellow, some orange and some that common bluish grey strip pattern. The yellows are not as bright as young yellow labs. Only $7 each. 2-3”, but thin.

 

Good deal. It looks like you have some interesting fish in there. I'm anxious to see what you have.

 

I tried to take pics.
it’s a challenge with my iPad, but I’m learning to use a DSLR. Also lots of reflections from window opposite this tank, not to mention my paws on the iPad. Also dim lighting in tank now. Maybe later I will use the LED strip on tank after sun sets & opposite window reflections gone.

 

Well, based on the picture...ill do my best and invite some of my African Cichlid friends double check my work.


These two look like Malandia Lombardoi (aka Kenyi Cichlid) The male is yellow and the female is blue.
These are pretty common at big box stores.




Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab)
I'm pretty sure I see a hint of black in the dorsal and the head shape looks right.




These are interesting. They look like Maylandi Estherae


But the color isn't typical of a Red Zebra which is usually undeniably bright orange, like this:



I'm really intrigued with this guy....I'd like to see him closer up.


That might be a Hap...but i can't really tell from here.

 

Much appreciative!

will get better pics & continue the search to ID.

 

These are interesting. They look like Maylandi Estherae

Head/eye shape and the darker rim of the dorsal say Aulonocara hybrid.

Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab)
I'm pretty sure I see a hint of black in the dorsal and the head shape looks right.

correct

These two look like Malandia Lombardoi (aka Kenyi Cichlid) The male is yellow and the female is blue.
These are pretty common at big box stores.

correct

That might be a Hap...but i can't really tell from here.

Aulonocara or Protomelas.

Lily1 :
A very important thing I learned early on back in the day (I grew up with these fish)
If neither you nor the people selling you the fish can ID them correctly abstain from buying them.
Also I can already tell you, your mix of species is going to give you headaches in the future. It's things like diet, behaviour and space requirements that make these fish MUCH more demanding than many people think at first glance and as many may want to tell you. They are also among the fish that do not only procreate when conditions are ideal. They breed under any circumstances, in absensence of a fitting female many males pressure and harrass females of less closely related species into spawning.

Should you get the book I recommended in the other thread, read it very attentively. It goes into detail on ecology and biology of these fish, which I find far more interesting than just their colours.

 

Head/eye shape and the darker rim of the dorsal say Aulonocara hybrid.

Yeah, that was my second guess. I didn't see that on the dorsal, good catch.

This looks like a mix of fish that you would typically see in the "Assorted African Cichlid" tank at a big box store. Those tanks usually consist of an Mbuna mix (auratus, johanni, maylandia, kenyi etc) but they can also have some fish that are clearly hybridized and hard to tell as well.

Likewise, there is usually also an "Assorted Peacock Cichlid" tank.

Pet Supplies Plus sources their fish from a distributor in Atlanta, Georgia called Sun Pets.
In fact, I often encounter smaller LFS that get their fish from Sun Pets as well.....when I hear this is when I usually leave.

It's kind of like a puppy mill, but for fish. They are only interested is mass breeding these fish to move them to retail in large quantities and alot of these fish are hybridized with bad genes and are very prone to getting sick.

MacZ Is spot on though, my immediate concern is diet. What are you feeding them?

The Mbuna (the Kenyi and the Yellow Labs etc) are herbivores. Too much protein will mess with their stomachs and can cause a serious condition called bloat.
Whereas the peacocks (and the big one that looks like a Protomelas Hap) can handle a bit more protein.

Regardless, your fish are in a much better place now than where they came from and with the proper water conditions and diet, they will be some of the most beautiful fish in the world.

 

Yellow Labs etc) are herbivores

Even worse with Labidochromis, they are allrounders, although some species are specialized on snails even. (no not the yellows, the snail eaters rarely end up in the trade).

 

Well, if there’s future problems or even immediate, I’ll get another tank. in retrospect, I probably (or definitely) should have put more thought & patience in stocking this tank.

I feed flakes, floating pellets, sinking pellets & occasionally bug bites & bug sticks. Previous owner did flakes only. I am unable to say with any degree of certainty if his flakes are adequate for herbivores, omnivores & carnivores. His mixture of 15 cichlids & 6 catfish were together for 5 years, he says. Guy‘s had fish for 25 years. Does not condition his well water. Never takes parameters. Some breed & all appear healthy. I found them on Craigslist 8/21.

Previous owner says the cichlids are mostly African with a few South American. I don‘t know which are South American. He did say this is controversial and I’ve read that, but also see he is not unique in his fish keeping practices. I’ve seen YouTube vids with mixed continent fish.
Some say these fish are more tolerant of GH and pH etc than traditional wisdom suggests.

Thanks to all for the ID’s. I am blown away by the sexual dimorphism. Really shouldn’t be, I see it every day in the wild birds I feed and also have a betta and 7 male guppies, but it’s really striking in these cichlids.

Even worse with Labidochromis, they are allrounders, although some species are specialized on snails even. (no not the yellows, the snail eaters rarely end up in the trade).

I’ve read putting snails in cichlid tanks is a bad idea. idk. I am not a fan of snails anyway.

 

Some say these fish are more tolerant of GH and pH etc than traditional wisdom suggests.

In short and that's not tradition, but science:
Hardwater fish have a lot of trouble acclimating to soft and acidic water, and I know from experience (and many stupid people that wouldn't listen when I sold them Malawi cichlids coming back for refunds they never got): Although wild caught Malawis need high pH but only medium GH, tankbred fish are at the point that pH under 7.5 and KH/GH below 10° is lethal after between 2 weeks and 2 months, depending on the fishes constitution.
Reason: They have little to no control to retain electrolytes and minerals with their gills and kidneys.
Softwater fish on the other hand can acclimate to hard water and make it quite some time. It still has long term effects on inner organs, especially the kidneys. They can also become invertile from it. So sure, when people say you can keep them in harder water it's a true statement. Not so true are the statements that it is harmless and that they can really thrive in it.

And I stopped discussing this with people. All things considered I am all for keeping any fish - tankbred or wild caught - in the water conditions their species is adapted to and to pick fish always fitting the local water parameters, unless one is willing to use tricks like reverse osmosis.

 

Here's food for thought:

What makes water hard? (The minerals in the water)
Soft water does not contain these minerals.
Fish that thrive/require hard water depend on these minerals for their health.
So if you deprive a fish that requires these minerals of those minerals it will be very bad for them.

Imagine if you were deprived of say.....calcium.
Could you survive?
Sure! But now you have osteoporosis.
But hey, you're not dead....so it must be fine

The flip side of this would be introducing these minerals to a soft water fish. Now, they dont require these minerals to survive so they can acclimate much easier. But that doesn't mean that long term exposure is necessarily a good thing as they can also cause adverse effects.

 

Here's food for thought:

What makes water hard? (The minerals in the water)
Soft water does not contain these minerals.
Fish that thrive/require hard water depend on these minerals for their health.
So if you deprive a fish that requires these minerals of those minerals it will be very bad for them.

Imagine if you were deprived of say.....calcium.
Could you survive?
Sure! But now you have osteoporosis.
But hey, you're not dead....so it must be fine

The flip side of this would be introducing these minerals to a soft water fish. Now, they dont require these minerals to survive so they can acclimate much easier. But that doesn't mean that long term exposure is necessarily a good thing as they can also cause adverse effects.

It's a bit more complicated. You're familiar with osmotic pressure? Means when a substance (e.g. calcium) is concentrated in high amounts outside the fishes body it will try and even out.
Problem is: Aquatic lifeforms do not necessarily need that concentration inside their bodies.
Hardwater fish have to actively excrete minerals and the like to keep the concentration inside their bodies even. (Same principle as in saltwater fish, but not that pronounced.)
Softwater fish have the opposite problem. Their water has so little of all these minerals, their gills and kidneys are build to retain them inside the bodies against the osmotic pressure.

So when you put a hardwater fish in soft water it will loose all it's minerals and electrolytes and die quite quickly of overhydration and mineral loss. As in this case the osmotic pressure is in the same direction as they usually excrete they have a net loss.

When you put a softwater fish into hard water, their systems take in much more than usual and they get a net surplus, which damages the organs usually responsible to retain these substances. Like a filter clogging. Just that a clogging kidney kills the organism. Slowly. While the body is poisoned by all the stuff it can't excrete.
For quite a while and depending on actual numbers these fish can survive and compensate, but at some point the inner organs just quit working.

So in the end: both groups need the same minerals and salts. The concentrations in- and outside the body are the actual problem.

 

In short and that's not tradition, but science:
Hardwater fish have a lot of trouble acclimating to soft and acidic water, and I know from experience (and many stupid people that wouldn't listen when I sold them Malawi cichlids coming back for refunds they never got): Although wild caught Malawis need high pH but only medium GH, tankbred fish are at the point that pH under 7.5 and KH/GH below 10° is lethal after between 2 weeks and 2 months, depending on the fishes constitution.
Reason: They have little to no control to retain electrolytes and minerals with their gills and kidneys.
Softwater fish on the other hand can acclimate to hard water and make it quite some time. It still has long term effects on inner organs, especially the kidneys. They can also become invertile from it. So sure, when people say you can keep them in harder water it's a true statement. Not so true are the statements that it is harmless and that they can really thrive in it.

And I stopped discussing this with people. All things considered I am all for keeping any fish - tankbred or wild caught - in the water conditions their species is adapted to and to pick fish always fitting the local water parameters, unless one is willing to use tricks like reverse osmosis.

Are you able to point me to references? I mean by ichthologists?

 

It's a bit more complicated. You're familiar with osmotic pressure? Means when a substance (e.g. calcium) is concentrated in high amounts outside the fishes body it will try and even out.
Problem is: Aquatic lifeforms do not necessarily need that concentration inside their bodies.
Hardwater fish have to actively excrete minerals and the like to keep the concentration inside their bodies even. (Same principle as in saltwater fish, but not that pronounced.)
Softwater fish have the opposite problem. Their water has so little of all these minerals, their gills and kidneys are build to retain them inside the bodies against the osmotic pressure.

So when you put a hardwater fish in soft water it will loose all it's minerals and electrolytes and die quite quickly of overhydration and mineral loss. As in this case the osmotic pressure is in the same direction as they usually excrete they have a net loss.

When you put a softwater fish into hard water, their systems take in much more than usual and they get a net surplus, which damages the organs usually responsible to retain these substances. Like a filter clogging. Just that a clogging kidney kills the organism. Slowly. While the body is poisoned by all the stuff it can't excrete.
For quite a while and depending on actual numbers these fish can survive and compensate, but at some point the inner organs just quit working.

So in the end: both groups need the same minerals and salts. The concentrations in- and outside the body are the actual problem.

I know about osmotic regulation, osmotic shock and pressure etc.....its why proper acclimation and water parameters are so important.
But your explanation is great.
I dont understand it all at that level of detail so that is very insightful, thanks!

 

What about mixed varieties who have been together for years? Does it depend upon the specific breeds? Or species? & some are more sensitive than others to less than optimal parameters?

 

What about mixed varieties who have been together for years? Does it depend upon the specific breeds? Or species? & some are more sensitive than others to less than optimal parameters?

Define "mixed varieties"

 

Therein lies the rub!

I am unable to id all the fish in the first 90 G tank. But I’ve cobbled this together: 1 large Synodontis E. 4 picus cats, one 7 bar male frontosa, blue zebra, a Mbuna cichlid, blue haplochromis moori, female Aulonocara peacock, two bright orange flowerhorns. Aka blood parrot fish? Two yellow labs. I will include a pic of the orange flowerhorn. A few others in multiples.

I need to take mugshots of these guys & tape them to the wall with the hopes of better identification.

 

Send pics when you can.

Flowerhorns and blood parrots are drastically different.

Check out the links that auto create when you type the name of the type of fish.

 

Are you able to point me to references? I mean by ichthologists?

I can look up something in English. My original sources are in German and Spanish and basic literature about osmoregulation, you can read up on that on wikipedia or in books about general fish physiology. I have linked something about the adaptability of softwater fish though, lately, I'll dig those up and link them again.

I know about osmotic regulation, osmotic shock and pressure etc.....its why proper acclimation and water parameters are so important.
But your explanation is great.
I dont understand it all at that level of detail so that is very insightful, thanks!

You're welcome. I'm trying my best.

 

View attachment 835892

That is a beautiful picture of a blood parrot.

 

That is a beautiful picture of a blood parrot.

So the pair of fish genius gurus at another forum misidentified those two as flowerhorns? LOL

Some interesting observations re this pair and a red zebra (fish in my avatar), The BPs hid most of the time while the RZ very calmly patrolled the water. The BPs are far more active since the RZ moved to the new tank. I put him there for his nice coloration & calmness. I think he was the Alpha in the other tank & is attempting to exert dominance over the new group added to the second 90 G a week ago.

 

So....did they also tell you that the fish in your avatar was a Red Zebra?

This is Mr. President.
He's a man made Aulonocara Hybrid species called Dragon Blood.....very popular Peacock Cichlid in Malawi tanks.

 

yes! And I believed them, seeing how both said they were into fish since FDR was giving away free guppies at his first inauguration,

Thanks for the wonderful pics! I love them!

 

I think you might have an actual Red Zebra in your tank though.

I believe it is this one:



The color is right

Let me also give you a heads up about your Dragonblood Peacock...right now, he's getting settled in to his new tank. He's learning his new environment and glass surfing a bit but rest assured...your Dragonblood and that other big Hap looking fish are going to battle over the "Tank Boss" position.....and that Dragonblood will probably win.

I say you will start to see this take place within the next month or so.

 

Ok, so I got some stuff on softwater fish, my experience with hardwater fish will have to be enough for the time being, I can't find many studies in English available. I can give you bibliographical info though. I haven't read all of them, I have to admit, but they were in the bibliography of an article I based my statements on.

Tolerance to temperature, pH, ammonia and nitrite in cardinal tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi, an Amazonian ornamental fish

Evans, D. H., Piermarini, P. M. und Choe, K. P. (2005). The multifunctional fish gill: Dominant site of gas exchange, osmoregulation, acid-base regulation, and excretion of nitrogenous waste. Physiological Reviews 85 (1): 97-177.

Evans, D. H. (1981). Salt and water exchange across vertebrate gills. In Gills, (Hrsg. D. F. Houlihan, J. C. Rankin et al. ), Seite(n) 149-172. Cambridge University Press, CAMBRIDGE.

Fernandes, M. N. und Perna-Martins, S. A. (2002). Chloride cell responses to long-term exposure to distilled and hard water in the gill of the armored catfish, Hypostomus tietensis (Loricariidae). Acta Zoologica 83 (4): 321-328.

Gonzalez, R. J., Dalton, V. M. und Patrick, M. L. (1997). Ion regulation in ion-poor acidic water by the blackskirt tetra (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi), a fish native to the Amazon River. Physiological Zoology 70 (4): 428-435.

Gonzalez, R. J. und Preest, M. R. (1999). Ionoregulatory specializations for exceptional tolerance of ion-poor, acidic waters in the neon tetra (Paracheirodon innesi). Physiological and Biochemical Zoology 72 (2): 156-163.

Gonzalez, R. J. und Wilson, R. W. (2001). Patterns of ion regulation in acidophilic fish native to the ion-poor, acidic Rio Negro. Journal of Fish Biology 58 (6): 1680-1690.

Gonzalez, R. J., Wilson, R. W., Wood, C. M., Patrick, M. L. und Val, A. L. (2002). Diverse strategies for ion regulation in fish collected from the ion-poor, acidic Rio Negro. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology 75 (1): 37-47.

Perry, S. F., Shahsavarani, A., Georgalis, T., Bayaa, M., Furimsky, M. und Thomas, S. L. (2003). Channels, pumps, and exchangers in the gill and kidney of freshwater fishes: Their role in ionic and acid-base regulation. Journal of Experimental Zoology A 300a (1): 53-62.

 

Wow! I am so very grateful! Suspect I may have difficulty accessing some, but I will try my best.

I think you might have an actual Red Zebra in your tank though.

I believe it is this one:
View attachment 835903

The color is right

Let me also give you a heads up about your Dragonblood Peacock...right now, he's getting settled in to his new tank. He's learning his new environment and glass surfing a bit but rest assured...your Dragonblood and that other big Hap looking fish are going to battle over the "Tank Boss" position.....and that Dragonblood will probably win.

I say you will start to see this take place within the next month or so.

He appears to have been the dominant fish in the other tank based upon my observations.
But he was peaceful there, then again I had this group only since 8/21, so I don’t know what came before. Previous owner says group together 5 years. Hap was there with him, as was the other big fish I relocated. Regretting this, but nice to see the Blood Parrots at ease now that the Boss is gone. Hoping they will get to same peaceful hierarchy as before In the new tank.

yes! And I believed them, seeing how both said they were into fish since FDR was giving away free guppies at his first inauguration,

Thanks for the wonderful pics! I love them!

This is what Pet Supplies Plus had to say in an email.


Alright so: There's multiple different ones there. We purchase as assorted african cichclids from all distributors so thats what we sell them as. From what we can tell theres 2 yellow labidochromis, 1 cobalt and maybe a peacock. Not sure what the red/orangish ones are, maybe more peacocks or red zebras.

 

This is what Pet Supplies Plus had to say in an email.

Alright so: There's multiple different ones there. We purchase as assorted african cichclids from all distributors so thats what we sell them as. From what we can tell theres 2 yellow labidochromis, 1 cobalt and maybe a peacock. Not sure what the red/orangish ones are, maybe more peacocks or red zebras.

It hurts on so many levels.

 

Assorted African Cichlids.....gotta love it.
At least they tried.

If you have a peaceful Dragonblood, be blessed.
He's pretty old if the previous owner had him for 5 years. I doubt that he had him since birth, so estimate another year from birth to grow out before he was purchased.
They will live around 7-10 years....that's about the same for all of those fish.

I just picked up this OB from an online breeder, he arrived Tuesday. I think he has some Dragonblood in him:




That picture doesn't do him justice, he's actually neon bright pinkish/orange. I've never seen an OB with this color before.

 

Just for some contrast, here's the importer we worked with in the 90s.
Aqua-Treff – DER SPEZIALIST FÜR MALAWI- UND TANGANJIKABUNTBARSCHE

THAT'S what I expect from a seller of Rift Lake cichlids.

 

Just for some contrast, here's the importer we worked with in the 90s.
Aqua-Treff – DER SPEZIALIST FÜR MALAWI- UND TANGANJIKABUNTBARSCHE

THAT'S what I expect from a seller of Rift Lake cichlids.

I only can dream of being able to purchase from some of the breeders over there. They're the best in the world in my opinion.

The best source I have is a breeder here in the states that imports his breeding groups from Aquahaus-gaus....his fish are top notch.
Simply amazing.

Thats where i finally found my Jalo after searching for a few years. He's top quality.

He's in my profile pic.

 

Assorted African Cichlids.....gotta love it.
At least they tried.

If you have a peaceful Dragonblood, be blessed.
He's pretty old if the previous owner had him for 5 years. I doubt that he had him since birth, so estimate another year from birth to grow out before he was purchased.
They will live around 7-10 years....that's about the same for all of those fish.

I just picked up this OB from an online breeder, he arrived Tuesday. I think he has some Dragonblood in him:

View attachment 835977

That picture doesn't do him justice, he's actually neon bright pinkish/orange. I've never seen an OB with this color before.

What a beauty!

 

Ok, so I got some stuff on softwater fish, my experience with hardwater fish will have to be enough for the time being, I can't find many studies in English available. I can give you bibliographical info though. I haven't read all of them, I have to admit, but they were in the bibliography of an article I based my statements on.

Tolerance to temperature, pH, ammonia and nitrite in cardinal tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi, an Amazonian ornamental fish

Evans, D. H., Piermarini, P. M. und Choe, K. P. (2005). The multifunctional fish gill: Dominant site of gas exchange, osmoregulation, acid-base regulation, and excretion of nitrogenous waste. Physiological Reviews 85 (1): 97-177.

Evans, D. H. (1981). Salt and water exchange across vertebrate gills. In Gills, (Hrsg. D. F. Houlihan, J. C. Rankin et al. ), Seite(n) 149-172. Cambridge University Press, CAMBRIDGE.

Fernandes, M. N. und Perna-Martins, S. A. (2002). Chloride cell responses to long-term exposure to distilled and hard water in the gill of the armored catfish, Hypostomus tietensis (Loricariidae). Acta Zoologica 83 (4): 321-328.

Gonzalez, R. J., Dalton, V. M. und Patrick, M. L. (1997). Ion regulation in ion-poor acidic water by the blackskirt tetra (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi), a fish native to the Amazon River. Physiological Zoology 70 (4): 428-435.

Gonzalez, R. J. und Preest, M. R. (1999). Ionoregulatory specializations for exceptional tolerance of ion-poor, acidic waters in the neon tetra (Paracheirodon innesi). Physiological and Biochemical Zoology 72 (2): 156-163.

Gonzalez, R. J. und Wilson, R. W. (2001). Patterns of ion regulation in acidophilic fish native to the ion-poor, acidic Rio Negro. Journal of Fish Biology 58 (6): 1680-1690.

Gonzalez, R. J., Wilson, R. W., Wood, C. M., Patrick, M. L. und Val, A. L. (2002). Diverse strategies for ion regulation in fish collected from the ion-poor, acidic Rio Negro. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology 75 (1): 37-47.

Perry, S. F., Shahsavarani, A., Georgalis, T., Bayaa, M., Furimsky, M. und Thomas, S. L. (2003). Channels, pumps, and exchangers in the gill and kidney of freshwater fishes: Their role in ionic and acid-base regulation. Journal of Experimental Zoology A 300a (1): 53-62.

The linked article was an interesting and easy read. Basically discussed mortality rate in exported cardinal tetras. They concluded fish tolerant of wide pH range, high ammonia and high temperature, but not low temps and high nitrites. I found the first on your list and it was very long and dry, skipped most. Appears to be detailed anatomical studies at the cellular level of fish gills.
Thanks again, & I will look for the others.

 

The linked article was an interesting and easy read. Basically discussed mortality rate in exported cardinal tetras. They concluded fish tolerant of wide pH range, high ammonia and high temperature, but not low temps and high nitrites. I found the first on your list and it was very long and dry, skipped most. Appears to be detailed anatomical studies at the cellular level of fish gills.
Thanks again, & I will look for the others.

The first one I linked often and I read it more than once. Keep in mind: They only tested short term. Long term effects are not recorded.
The others: Yes, a lot of dry stuff among it, but I am more than ok with that, as I am just past a certain level. I want to know how things work so I can draw my own conclusions and debunk horrendously wrong statements as you find them often on the web.

 

UPDATE: Boss Fish has settled down, confident he’s still the ruling monarch.

 

UPDATE: Boss Fish has settled down, confident he’s still the ruling monarch. View attachment 837329

He is beautiful!

 

He is beautiful!

He is! He has some blue in his tail under certain lighting

 

He is! He has some blue in his tail under certain lighting

He probably does all through his face, body and dorsal fin as well.

 

He probably does all through his face, body and dorsal fin as well.

He does!