Unfertilized Angelfish Eggs Question

Discussion in 'Breeding Fish' started by Lissi Kat, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    I'm a bit curious about this one. 2 Angels seem to have paired off in my community tank the female is a gold pearl scale and the male is gold.this is a new pairing and this is their first time spawing together. The female is older and used to lay eggs on the filter intake but there was no adult male around at that point. This time they chose a sword leaf and tended to their eggs but they were visibly transparent and soon became milky so to me it looks like the daddy wanna be didn't do the deed. Is this common in younger fish,did he maybe aim wrong or could he actually be a she and just felt like joining in. They were a total team tending to these eggs from taking turns fanning them to carrying away rouge footing plants if the drifted by so I'm just very curious if anyone else has had this before. Screenshot_20180424-205341.png
     




  2. Iridium_2256Valued MemberMember

    Did all of them turn milky or only a few? The milky ones are dead ones, the parents should pick them back up.
     




  3. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    After 2 days they had all gone milky same thing happened when she later eggs before and there was no male around. I thought they'd be kind of orange in colour if they were fertilized but they were all clear and then turned milky.which makes me wonder what's up with the male
     




  4. Iridium_2256Valued MemberMember

    The male-if its his first time- Doesnt always fertilize, sometimes it will take a few tries before it clicks taht he needs to fertilize. Or it may not be a male at all, you wont know unless the eggs get fertilized or if she just keeps laying and they never do get fertilized.
     
  5. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    I was thinking that it being his first time he may have just gotten it wrong but wasn't sure if that was possible as everything else comes so naturally to them. Would a second female behave in that manner? I mean it was the only fish allowed near the eggs in the tank by the female who had clearly layed the eggs her tube was still visible and he was acting out all the other parenting roles so I figured it's most likely male and just inexperienced! Thanks for your input btw I just find it odd as fertilizing should be the easy part
     
  6. Iridium_2256Valued MemberMember

    Sometimes fish need a couple tries to get breeding the right way. There are stories about 2 females pairing up, mine would eat their eggs sometimes, and sometimes the male just doesnt fertilize. If you give the male another try or 2 he will get it down, and hopefully your next post will be asking how to take care of angelfish fry:)
     
  7. bizaliz3Fishlore LegendMember

    White eggs are not dead, they are infertile. Just clarifying.

    And you will always have infertile eggs. Even the most experienced males do not get every single egg. And yes, it can totally be an aim issue. I had one male that was horrible at it. I always joked about him having horrible aim. He just needs practice though. They need to learn how to get the good eggs protected from the infertile eggs as they grow fungus on them. My pairs always choose to move the freshly hatched wigglers (usually takes 48 hours for me for them to hatch) away from the white fungus eggs rather than removing the white eggs. But if they wait too long, the wigglers get suffocated by all the fungus and die.

    are you able to see the Male's breeding tube? If it is small and pointy, its a boy. And right before spawning, the female's tube sticks out super far.

    I had two females "pair up" once. But female #2 did not pretend to fertilize. They actually laid eggs together. Both of them. So I doubt it was a 2nd female just pretended to fertilize. I think it is a boy with bad aim who needs more practice.

    ALSO, for the record, it appears they laid on a horizontal surface. This was the problem with my seemingly infertile boy too. They aren't able to fertilize very successfully on horizontal surfaces. They do much better on vertical surfaces. So that could be the problem too.
     
  8. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    He is still pretty young I got him about 7 months ago and he was about 3cm body diameter so this was definatly his first try. Haha maybe he just needs the extra practice!I'll probably move them to their own tank soon enough because I'd like to be able to raise up some of the fry as opposed to just having them be handy little protein treats for everyone elsea fair portion of my bristle nose fry always survive in there without getting eaten but I suppose they have the advantage of being better hidden for a long time there's been spawns of those that I've failed to notice for quite some time way handier when you can pull the eggs and don't have to up end your whole tank to get them out!
     
  9. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    Very insightful! Thanks to be honest I think the eggs may have been laid for 12 to 24 hours before I spotted them (very busy weekend so I just fed and ferts and didn't pay much attention to anything.) The females tube was still clearly visible but I didn't notice much of anything on the other one. I think she probably started laying them while the leaf was upright and then the weight of the eggs plus the constant tlc being afforded to it made the leaf bend over but that's a very plausible explanation as to why his small pointy thing didn't do the deed I think I'll move them into their own tank to give any potential fry the best shot. I know they may get eaten but from what I've heard if you can get them to raise fry those fry will go in to be better parents who don't eat their babies apparently that's a problem with the newer morphs as opposed to the ones closer to the wild varieties I don't know if there's truth to that but I like the thought of being able to reintroduce their natural instincts. Slightly off topic but would you happen to know what are the odds of them producing atleast some pearl scale offspring , any clue as to just how dominant or recessive that gene is. I'd be very interested to know.
     
  10. bizaliz3Fishlore LegendMember

    Ha ha!!!! Don't get me started on pearlscales!!!!!!!! It's a huge frustration of mine that many people here are aware of. I have had 2 different Pairs where both parents were pearlscale and none of their babies were. It does not make any sense based on all of my research of the genetics!! It's definitely recessive. It would only happen for you if your non pearlscale has a recessive pearl scale gene based on my research.

    But you are talking to a girl who had two pearl scale parents who should both have two pearl scale genes therefore all the babies should be pearl scale!! So honestly I have no idea! Lol

    Watching them parent raise is very rewarding though if they actually do it!!
     
  11. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    oops I didn't realise that's a sensitive point my apologies! What are the odds!
    Your right technically it should be there in atleast some of them if both parents have it but I suppose that would be the same on paper as 2 red haired people only having red haired kids but irl it doesn't work exactly that way I guess.i wonder if there are any other factors that might effect the outcome that maybe if there's another separate gene that wouldn't be easily identified present in one of them that it could negate the prescale for some reason. I really think there should be more large scale,well funded studies to give answers to my late night queries about very specific fish genes
     
  12. McasellaFishlore VIPMember

    It is about like halfblack angels need a certain amount of light and dark otherwise they are considered unturned because the halfblack look doesn't develop - the fish store i bought one from caused visible halfblack angels to lose their halfblack because of constant (beyond 8 hours) light, while i somehow managed to keep the one i bought as a turned halfblack with less than 8 hours of direct light (about six).
    Some pearlscale take longer to develop, some people have more luck. So i put it down as environmental rather than something genetics completely take over. I just haven't figured out what environment needs need to be met to encourage the pearlscale development.
     
  13. Lissi KatValued MemberMember

    That's very interesting! It makes some sense that extensive light may bleach out the colour much like in summer your hair gets lighter from the sun. The environmental aspect is also very interesting perhaps they require higher calcium levels or something like that to be able to utilise the gene fully in a similar way that spirulina for example would help enhance certain colours.
     
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