TSS & Prime

Great drawing of Gary!

 

I really want an ivory so I can call her Potato. Lol

 

I've never seen anything but Gold mysteries where I'm at, so I agree he's pretty darn groovy. The only reason I avoid them is I've been told they reproduce like crazy and after having to eradicate a bunch of gorgeous red and blue ramshorns because of their constant laying of clutches (and I mean multiple new clutches DAILY), I stick with Nerites. My tiger and zebra nerites are fantastic at keeping the brown algae under control, don't eat plants and don't reproduce out of saltwater.

 

What a handsome lucky fellow!

I do believe you can have two Apple snails. If you get eggs just scrape them off. From what I understand, they lay eggs out of the water but in a moist area, if the eggs dry out they won't hatch.

My female apple snail lays one or two clutches per week, but they are always above the water line, often on the glass of the hood covering the tank. The clutch is easy to see and to remove.

 

I will do anything for Gary! I love him so much that I draw him every day!

Absolutely love the drawing! Do you have more to share?

 

So the first is what I assume everyone is basing waiting 24 hours between prime and tetra safe start, which is from the forum. It says not to use a dechlorinater that will take away the bacterias food source. "So if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live."
However, many also champion the use of Prime, and even remark how it makes ammonia safe by turning into a different compound that the beneficial bacteria can still use. As described in the last photo.
These two statements contradict each other.

So perhaps with other dechlorinaters one should wait 24 hours but with Prime it is unnecessary?


Oh I just thought about if the seachem photos are not allowed on here, I'm sorry if they aren't and can just describe them if that's okay?

 

Following.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Any thoughts?

Ive actually never uses TSS in a tank before. When I was starting out I didnt know about the nitrogen cycle, but still got my tank to cycle.

The only way to really know is to test it out? Its best to ask both manufacturers though.

 

Yeah, there are several contradictions out there, particularly about Prime. I have trouble reconciling what people say about low pH turning ammonia into ammonium (meaning that there would be no cycle as long as the pH stays low), with what they say about Prime converting ammonia to ammonium (but don’t worry, it’ll still be available for the bacteria), and with what they say about Prime being incompatible with TSS.

If I had to guess, I’d say that Prime does not convert ammonia to ammonium, but rather neutralizes it differently. I’d be interested to see what the manufacturer says.

 

SeaChem never claimed that Prime turns ammonia into ammonium, that's just an assumption many people seem to make.

The reason for waiting the 24 hours may not be because the dechlorinator removes the food source, it may be because TSS+ is a bottle of bacteria packaged in "stabilized ammonia". I assume this "stabilized ammonia" (whatever that is) feeds the bacteria while it is still in the bottle. The breaking of the bond between ammonia and chlorine that these water conditioners do, may somehow effect the TSS+ bacteria in a way other than starving it.

 

I'm not sure that I'm allowed to link to the seachem website so sorry in advance but I see at least one tech support person answering the question of what prime does to ammonia and the clear answer (at least to me) was that it converts NH3 to NH4+ which if I'm not mistaken is non toxic ionized ammonium(?) that bacteria should be able to utilize. They explain that in regards to water tests that detect total ammonia not just NH3. Seachem has other products like the ammonia alert that only measures NH3. I looked this stuff up months ago trying to figure out why the alert can say its good but the liquid test says its not but fish are fine.

Prime and "False Positive" Ammonia Readings - Seachem Support Forums

 

When it comes to water conditioners I'd trust Seachem over anybody else 7 days a week.

Prime doesn't remove ammonia like a lot of other conditioners do and that's why your bacteria isn't starved. So TSS+ is just fine.

But you can avoid any risk altogether and just use Stability cause it's meant to be used with prime

 

SeaChem never claimed that Prime turns ammonia into ammonium, that's just an assumption many people seem to make.

The reason for waiting the 24 hours may not be because the dechlorinator removes the food source, it may be because TSS+ is a bottle of bacteria packaged in "stabilized ammonia". I assume this "stabilized ammonia" (whatever that is) feeds the bacteria while it is still in the bottle. The breaking of the bond between ammonia and chlorine that these water conditioners do, may somehow effect the TSS+ bacteria in a way other than starving it.

I am just using the answer given previously to this forum in the first picture that specifically talks about the dechlorinates starving the bacteria. Whether this person who answered for Tetra was accurate in their answer I don't know, which is part of why I started this thread. I've seen plenty of "experts" who are employed by companies say things on behalf of the company that are not accurate. They are people that can make mistakes just like any of us.

Tetra says it will starve them, Prime says it won't. Either one of the employees information is incorrect or Prime is a special case, and I'm just a curious cat lol

 

I thought there was something off about the TSS Q&A from the moment I read it. I feel like we still don't have any definitive answers, but the contradictions should mean that there is more to learn.

 

Wait I'm confused...

I just mixed Prime and Stability together today when I was starting up my tank. I read up on the Seachem site and they said Prime and Stability are supposed to work together, and don't kill the beneficial bacteria. Does Stability act like TSS and the dechlorinators will kill the bb?

 

Wait I'm confused...

I just mixed Prime and Stability together today when I was starting up my tank. I read up on the Seachem site and they said Prime and Stability are supposed to work together, and don't kill the beneficial bacteria. Does Stability act like TSS and the dechlorinators will kill the bb?

Prime and stability together are fine. It is just the TSS+ that's questionable.

When it comes to Prime and TSS+ I would follow Tetra's advice. After all it is their product
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

I think that Seachem can't speak for Tetra products.
As they state, you can use Prime and Stability together.

 

Well alright. Someone at some point will need to test this in a fishless cycle. Tetra said owners would see numbers of 1-2ppm and that was considered nontoxic "stress" levels. Wow.

In the link they didnt discuss Prime at all. I used tss+ for my first tank and used prime less than 7 days later, maybe around the 4th or 5th day mark (having never heard the concept that they don't work together). I did small pwc every 2-3 days gradually spreading them out. Tank was cycled in about 3-4 weeks.

The other water conditioners probably do not work with tss. But I'm really curious what if any affect prime has on tss+ in a cycling tank.

 

Sorry to bring this thread up again but I'm about to embark on a Dr Tims cycle & I use Prime as a conditioner & detoxifier - so I'm wondering if I should just use a basic dechlorinator during the process or keep using Prime?

Tetra say in their Q&A that ammonia detoxifiers are not to be used as it will lock up the ammonia, & starve the bacteria of its food source. However - Seachem claim that Prime only converts the ammonia to ammonium. That would obviously require an extra hydrogen ion to bond to the ammonia, converting it from Nh3 to Nh4, which is less harmful to fish - and as its explained in science, that would be the process. Nh4 is STILL a viable food source for nitrosomona europaea - so how can "locking up ammonia" hinder bacterial growth when converted ammonium is still able to be used as food?? Conflicting information from companies who are in competition with eachother, is making it harder for beginners to progress with cycling.

So basically - today Ill be starting a cycle with Dr Tims. It will be less than 24hrs ago since I dosed with Prime. So would it affect the bacteria in Dr Tims, or would it not? Should I instead do a huge water change first & then treat the water with a basic dechlorinator, before I add the Dr Tims?

I'm so confused about it all

 

Always use Prime

Prime will not affect nitrifying bacteria, what exactly are you confused about?

 

Prime will not affect nitrifying bacteria, what exactly are you confused about?

Dr Tims info department emailed me back when I enquired & said it does. Said you can use the correct dosage for top-off water but not the whole tank or water changes

 

Dr Tims info department emailed me back when I enquired & said it does. Said you can use the correct dosage for top-off water but not the whole tank or water changes

Dr Tims probably told you that because they want you to buy their water conditioner.

Prime will actually be better for your cycle.

 

Dr Tims probably told you that because they want you to buy their water conditioner.

Prime will actually be better for your cycle.

Haha most probably.
The only reason I asked is because I'm under the impression that Dr Tims O&O is basically the same as TSS - & on here in the Tetra Q&A, they said not to use an ammonia detoxifier as it'd starve the bacteria.

 

Haha most probably.
The only reason I asked is because I'm under the impression that Dr Tims O&O is basically the same as TSS - & on here in the Tetra Q&A, they said not to use an ammonia detoxifier as it'd starve the bacteria.

Ah I see your dilemma.

Products like ammo-lock and stuff that REMOVES ammonia shouldn't be used.

Prime is completely fine because it converts ammonia to an ammonia-solution that is not harmful to fish but is still accessible to your beneficial bacteria.

It sounds like the Dr Tim's employee you spoke with doesn't know what they're talking about!

 

Ah I see your dilemma.

Products like ammo-lock and stuff that REMOVES ammonia shouldn't be used.

Prime is completely fine because it converts ammonia to an ammonia-solution that is not harmful to fish but is still accessible to your beneficial bacteria.

It sounds like the Dr Tim's employee you spoke with doesn't know what they're talking about!

I didn't realise the two worked differently. Id much sooner use my Prime (that I trust) than the Tetra AquaSafe Ive got.
I added it all last night after a water change so ill be using Prime in future now.

Yea, doesn't fill a beginner with confidence to think a organisations 'technical support' team is giving you dodgy information. He also said that throughout the process, I should only do a water change if I see high levels of ammonia. Makes me wonder now

 

I didn't realise the two worked differently. Id much sooner use my Prime (that I trust) than the Tetra AquaSafe Ive got.
I added it all last night after a water change so ill be using Prime in future now.

Yea, doesn't fill a beginner with confidence to think a organisations 'technical support' team is giving you dodgy information. He also said that throughout the process, I should only do a water change if I see high levels of ammonia. Makes me wonder now

If you wait 24 hours after using Seachem Prime, before adding TSS or Dr Tim’s one and only, there will be no issues. Tetra Safe Start wants you to use their water conditioner (Aquasafe) so for whatever reason, most other dechlorinators, not just Prime can affect how well TSS works. But just waiting 24 hours in between dosing, solves the problem all together. So no need to worry too much about it.

Ah I see your dilemma.

Products like ammo-lock and stuff that REMOVES ammonia shouldn't be used.

Prime is completely fine because it converts ammonia to an ammonia-solution that is not harmful to fish but is still accessible to your beneficial bacteria.

It sounds like the Dr Tim's employee you spoke with doesn't know what they're talking about!

API Ammo-lock doesn’t REMOVE ammonia, it detoxifies it.Just like Seachem Prime does. The only difference is that Ammo-lock doesn’t detoxify nitrites and nitrates like Prime does. In theory these products shouldn’t affect TSS at all, but in practice they do. I am sure it is some proprietary issue, designed to prevent the use of different brands.

 

If you wait 24 hours after using Seachem Prime, before adding TSS or Dr Tim’s one and only, there will be no issues. Tetra Safe Start wants you to use their water conditioner (Aquasafe) so for whatever reason, most other dechlorinators, not just Prime can affect how well TSS works. But just waiting 24 hours in between dosing, solves the problem all together. So no need to worry too much about it.



API Ammo-lock doesn’t REMOVE ammonia, it detoxifies it.Just like Seachem Prime does. The only difference is that Ammo-lock doesn’t detoxify nitrites and nitrates like Prime does. In theory these products shouldn’t affect TSS at all, but in practice they do. I am sure it is some proprietary issue, designed to prevent the use of different brands.

I'm not familiar with Ammo-lock as I haven't used it before.

But those ammonia-removing pads and such will stall your cycle. They are to be avoided.

 

AllieSten how long AFTER adding Dr Tims can you use Prime again?

 

I agree with jdhef

Prime *shouldn't* bother TSS+ in a start up situation as long as you have a steady source of ammonia. Where I could see this being an issue is if the fish you have isn't providing enough of an ammonia source and the prime, in some way, effects the bonded ammonia the TSS+ comes in. Perhaps you may see some die off of the bacteria colony.

My own experience says otherwise. I've used TSS+ and prime in both start up and maintenance situations and neither time prime has effected the the cycle. Others claim it have. But I can only speak to my experience.