TSS & Prime

I keep reading here advice to not use Prime within 24 hours of using Tetra Safe Start. This didn't make sense to me because Prime binds ammonia and nitrites into non-toxic forms but it is still available for the bio-filter. Not using Prime allows ammonia or nitrites to harm your fish in that 24 hours you are not using it.

Anyways, I emailed Seachem to ask them and this is what they said:

Hello Cindi,

Thank you for your email. Prime should not interfere with bacteria-start products, and in fact we highly recommend it as a part of any aquarium startup. I think that the confusion comes from the fact that Prime will bind ammonia and nitrite in a nontoxic form, but it will not actually remove them from the tank. They will, for instance, still be readable with test kits. While bound in the nontoxic form, the ammonia and nitrite is still available to the bacteria for utilization and removal, so using Prime can help to cycle the tank without harming the fish.

I hope this helps,
Seachem Support 10256



If anyone thinks this is not correct, maybe email Tetra and we'll see what they say also to see if it coincides with Seachem's response.

 

There's a Q&A with tetra here about safe start, it says that any ammonia products that lock up or remove ammonia will kill Tss.
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

 

I think that's where the confusion is. Prime doesn't remove ammonia like some products do. It converts it to a fish friendly but still bacterial friendly form. If it removed it altogether, you wouldn't be able to cycle your tank with just fish and prime which is what a lot of people do without TSS.

 

I think that's where the confusion is. Prime doesn't remove ammonia like some products do. It converts it to a fish friendly but still bacterial friendly form. If it removed it altogether, you wouldn't be able to cycle your tank with just fish and prime which is what a lot of people do without TSS.

I think that's what they mean by locking it up, you could mail Tetra & ask them to clarify it

 

Ok, probably a good idea, I'll let you know when they get back to me.

 

Thank you, it'll be interesting to see what they say, & clear up any confusion

 

I think the answer is in the Q & A that Coradee linked to.

"In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live".

It will still be interesting to see if Tetra stands by that statement.

 

The only thing I have heard back is they said to wait several hours after adding Prime to add the TSS. I asked another question to clarify so I'll see if they respond.

 

Yes, the amount of contradicting advice is hard to sort out. I've never been able to figure out why Prime should affect TSS either, if it keeps ammonia in a usable form for bacteria. As well as the conversation Lucy had with Tetra on TSS, Tetra on their site says that TSS shouldn't be dosed within 24 hours of using even a product like AquaSafe which is a pretty basic dechlorinator. AquaSafe Plus removes chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals, but I believe AquaSafe is just a dechlorinator.

Question:

Hi, I am starting up a new 20 gallon aquarium with two guppies. I plan on using SafeStart Plus and AquaSafe Conditioner. I see on a few Q&A's that I should use AquaSafe first, wait 24 hours, and then add SafeStart Plus. To me, that sounds like AquaSafe may affect the effectiveness of SafeStart Plus. If I need to do a water change and use AquaSafe to condition the water, will it have an effect on the SafeStart Plus already in the tank? Thanks!

Answer:

Yes, water conditioners and ammonia removal agents effect TSS Plus. TSS is cultured bacteria. When you place it in your tank, the bacteria attach to surfaces and begin to produce more of themselves, while breaking down fish waste. Within two weeks, they will have fully established themselves and cycled your tank. You do NOT do a water change during that time. Once you are past that time, you can begin doing partial water changes on the schedule you intend to keep,and you need not worry about the bacteria being affected, as long as the water changes are kept small. For your tank, we would recommend 25% every other week with a good vacuuming each time. Aquasafe is not harmful to established bacteria. TSS is made up of the bacteria and a special stablized food source to keep the bacteria alive. Aquasafe affects the food source, if you use TSS and Aquasafe at the same time, thereby starving the bacteria.

So, maybe if even a simple dechlorinator such as AquaSafe which is also made by Tetra, can affect the bacteria in TSS, then I guess it might stand to reason that a more complex water conditioner such as Prime, may also affect it. Why a dechlorinator would affect it? I don't know. :-\

Here is a link to the AquaSafe product.



And for the sake of argument, in case they are referring to AquaSafe Plus



Does all of this add even more to the confusion?

 

Does all of this add even more to the confusion?

Makes ya just want to err on the side of caution.
Add dechlorinator, wait 24 hours then add to Tetra Safe Start.

Really, what are we losing by doing this?
24 hours with out fish is about all.

 

Makes ya just want to err on the side of caution.
Add dechlorinator, wait 24 hours then add to Tetra Safe Start.

Really, what are we losing by doing this?
24 hours with out fish is about all.

Yep, I think that's about the only thing we can do.

 

Thanks all. I appreciate the input I just don't see how it can't use ammonium which I believe is what prime converts ammonia to? But yes, err on the side of caution is good. The thing it doesn't answer is what should you do when you see ammonia or nitrites those first two weeks if you aren't supposed to use Prime?

Thanks @ Toosie for the lengthy explanation, I appreciate it.

 

Thanks all. I appreciate the input I just don't see how it can't use ammonium which I believe is what prime converts ammonia to? But yes, err on the side of caution is good. The thing it doesn't answer is what should you do when you see ammonia or nitrites those first two weeks if you aren't supposed to use Prime?

Thanks @ Toosie for the lengthy explanation, I appreciate it.

You do nothing. If cycling with TSS, a person has to accept the fact the fish will be subjected to levels of ammonia and nitrites. I believe 1.5ppm is what they say the levels might go up to.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not TSS can use ammonium. A basic dechlorinator such as AquaSafe is apparently enough to affect the food source. AquaSafe doesn't detoxify ammonia at all. Prime detoxifies the ammonia, whether it converts it to ammonium, or does something else entirely different, isn't clear in any information about Prime that I've read. They are pretty evasive answering that it seems, but how it detoxifies ammonia isn't necessarily why it can't be used immediately before, or during the TSS treatment. Maybe some of the chemicals used for removing chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals causes problems, and that's why AquaSafe can't be used either.

I kept this one shorter.

 

I wonder what the answer would be if we asked Tetra about using TSS in conjunction with only sodium thiosulfate (the chlorine sequestration chemical) as opposed to a product like Aqua Safe which has more in it than just the thiosulfate.

The AquaSafe bottle says it conditions, dechlorinates, and adds protective slime coat. So one has to wonder what is meant by "conditions". And what does it have in it to add protective slime?

It may be that most of these newer "dechlorinators" also include chemicals to complex ammonia, too, because they know that many water systems use chloramines and that when you treat chloraminated water with thiosulfate, it releases the ammonia from the chloramine molecule as it "traps" the chlorine atoms.

If one were to use only sodium thiosulfate to "dechlorinate" their tap water, and their tap water started with chloramines in it, then they'd actually be providing their bacteria (or the TSS) with additional "food" in the form of more ammonia.

The "old school" dechlorination products had only sodium thiosulfate in them. Supposedly, Wardley's ChlorOut and Mardel's MarChlor are still, simply sodium thiosulfate. But I got that info from a document from 2012, so who knows now?

What is also confusing is having directly contradictory statements from these manufacturers.

I'd tend to go with what Tetra says about how to use TSS, and just avoid using any of these water conditioners until the tank is cycled. I wonder if the TSS is supposed to contain enough bacteria food to last the whole two weeks while the bacteria becomes established and attached to the surfaces so you don't need to add ammonia during the cycle.

 

I keep reading here advice to not use Prime within 24 hours of using Tetra Safe Start. This didn't make sense to me because Prime binds ammonia and nitrites into non-toxic forms but it is still available for the bio-filter. Not using Prime allows ammonia or nitrites to harm your fish in that 24 hours you are not using it.

Interesting question. What I keep reading is not to use TSS within 24 hours of applying Prime, not the other way around, forgive me for "knitpicking." Answering your question on their website TETRA says that Prime is too harsh and will harm BB.

TETRA and SEACHEM are deadlocked in a serious competition. I won't be surprised if sooner or later one of them will overtake the other, most likely in some hostile acquisition maneuver.

Neither will ever disclose their exact components unless required by law, which the way the trend goes, is highly unlikely. Therefore, not being a scientist or having a lab at my disposal to analyze their formulas for now like Jsigmo I am following TETRA's directions for using TETRA products and SEACHEM's for using SEACHEM products.

 

Jsigmo, AquaSafe has been around a long time. Not saying the company couldn't have changed its makeup so that it treats chloramines, but they haven't started to indicate it on the label. AquaSafe Plus, is the product that treats chloramines.

Added slime coat could be just salt, but could be something else too.

TSS was designed to be used with fish. If fish aren't added within a certain period of time, Tetra says the product won't work. I think its in a matter of a couple or so hours, but I can't remember for sure. So because its a product to cycle with fish, a product for chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals needs to be used because TSS doesn't treat these things.

The sodium thiosulphate question would be a good one to ask them. I wonder if their is a msds for some of these products. It might be a way to learn more about their makeup and answer some questions.

 

They don't make this easy for us, do they?

Looking at Tetra's website, I see a Q&A section for AquaSafe. In it, in answer to someone's question, the rep for Tetra says AquaSafe "removes chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals".

But their rep could also be confused between AquaSafe and AquaSafe Plus. (I'm having a deja vu moment as I write this for some reason).

I found other indications on their site that AquaSafe is useful on Chloramines, too. They say this:

"Chlorine and Chloramine is a common disinfectant in tap water and is very harmful to fish gills and invertebrates.
Add AquaSafe to all tap water before adding to your aquarium. Also adjust the water temperature to match your aquarium before adding.
1 teaspoon (5 ml) Tetra AquaSafe per 5 gallons aquarium water. NOTE, AquaSafe Plus can be half dose."

That implies that AquaSafe works on Chloramines. But they seem to be saying that you need to use a full dose while AquaSafe Plus can be a half dose.

So that's all kind of inconclusive. So I just flat out asked Tetra if Safe Start does anything to sequester the ammonia that's liberated when it binds the chlorine atoms from the chloramine molecules. I haven't gotten an answer yet, but it's the weekend, so I wouldn't expect any response, at least until after Monday.

Then I got to wondering what is even in AquaSafe. So I looked on line, but could find no s showing the back of a bottle of it. I did find a bottle at a store, and took a cell phone picture of the back. It says that it "Works instantly to make tap water safe for fish." That'd be a pretty dangerous statement to make if it didn't work on chloramines. So I have to think that it at least works as well as sodium thiosulfate on Chloramines, but it doesn't really say if it does or doesn't sequester the ammonia that breaking the chloramines would release. So back to square one, right?

It does list the "Principal Ingredients" as: Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate, chelating compounds, polyvinylpyrollidones, organic hydrocolloids.

It's times like this I wish I knew a LOT more about chemistry, but, Google and Wikipedia to the rescue again! Searching for Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate, the first hit was:



In that article, Wikipedia says, in part:

A niche use is its use as water conditioner for aquaria as it rapidly reduces chlorine and chloramine and reacts with ammonia to form the innocuous aminomethylsulfinate ion.

So that means that Tetra AquaSafe uses a chemical that not only reduces chlorine and chloramine, but it reacts with ammonia to form a "fish safe" complex.

And that means that not only should AquaSafe be effective on chloraminated water, but it may also bind any other ammonia it comes across. Now, the question would be: Does that "innocuous aminomethylsulfinate ion" end up being unavailable to the bacteria in TSS, or will it still make good bacteria food?

Edit to add:

When I say "reduces chlorine and chloramine" I mean reduces in the chemical sense of the word, as in the opposite of oxidize. These chlorine killing compounds are all reducing agents. Chlorine is an oxidizing agent.

Also, the reason the Wikipedia article pops up when you search for Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate is because Rongalite is a trade name for Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate. I didn't make that very clear, did I ?

 

Let us know what they say!

 

Jsigmo, you've been busy!

I haven't found MSDS for the AquaSafe, or AquaSafe Plus products, but I did find this....

Back in 2002, to pick an example at random, I made some sound guesses about Tetra's AquaSafe, the original bottled water "conditioner" with a cocktail of ingredients, first introduced in 1970, and the market leader in sales volume. Tetra still offers no list of its ingredients, but Doctors Foster and Smith report the principal ingredients of the reformulated AquaSafePlus sold through their site: Sodium hydroxymethanesulfinate, Polyvinyl Pyrollidones, Organic Hydrocolloids, Organic Chelating Compounds.

So maybe AquaSafe and AquaSafe Plus have the same ingredients, whether they always did or not is a moot point. It's if they do now that matters, and according to what you found on the AquaSafe bottle, it would seem they are much the same.

I did find somewhere that formaldehyde was involved in one. I'll see if I can find it again before I post this. Here it is... it's apparently part of what makes up hydroxymethansesulfinate??? Is that why TSS and AquaSafe don't get along?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rongalite

The only chemical listed in the MSDS for Prime is complexed hydrosulfite salts. To read about what hydrosulfite salts are, I'll include a wikipedia link for it's discription. Seachem indicates theirs is complexed ... what ever else that does to the equation.

https://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/Prime.doc.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dithionite

It all sounds like darn good stuff.

EDIT: Ok, wait a minute... hydroxymethansesulfinate is also called rongalite. This salt is prepared from sodium dithionite and formaldehyde and this is what is in AquaSafe. Prime is made with complexed hydrosulfite salts. Hydrosulfite salts is sodium dithionite. So... that's a common denominator, isn't it? Both products use sodium dithionite. One adds formaldehyde and one doesn't. Is this correct?

 

I added to my post above to make it a bit more clear, but you had it figured out anyhow.

And, just to add to our chemistry discussion, the standard old-school dechlor agent is another sulfur compound: sodium thiosulfate. I think sulfur is involved in a lot of reducing agents. (It does like to combine with oxygen). Think of sodium sulfite, commonly used as an oxygen scavenger.

We used to put it into our boiler feed water where I used to work to prevent rust from happening in the boiler and in the steam piping. It sucks up free oxygen very well. I have also used it to create oxygen-free water for calibrating the zero point of dissolved oxygen probes.

And, it's also used in various food products to tie up any free oxygen to keep things fresh and prevent spoilage. It's in almost every bottle of wine you can find. It must keep it from going bad by oxidation. (Nothing worse than oxidized wine)!!

I'll bet it'd do a number on chlorine, too, but the other products we see being used must have advantages for that use.

There is always a little bit of sodium thiosulfate in every sample bottle used to collect water samples being tested for bacterial infection. They don't want any chlorine or chloramine to be in with the sample because it might kill the bacteria you're testing for before the test can be set up and started.

That's where I first heard the name sodium thiosulfate. I'd see this tiny bit of white crystalline powder in those sample bottles, and asked what that was all about. Then later I realized that our old dechlor drops were also just a solution of sodium thiosulfate.

 

I used SafeStart when it first came onto the market. Back then the instructions said to use only Aqua Safe when using SafeStart, and there was no waiting period. But since that time, things have changed. I don't know if it is because the reformulated Aqua Safe to remove chloramines, or not though.

 

That explains why Prime smells so much of sulfur.

Also, I am thinking they didn't figure out TSS was being effected by these products for awhile. I always was reading that it didn't work ( a couple of years ago) probably because people were using these products at the same time.

 

It's hard to know if the ammonia compounds these water treatments make out of the ammonia are available or not to the bacteria.

Ideally, the bacteria would be able to eat the ammonia from these ammonia compounds, but the fish would be safe. However it may well be that these compounds lock up the ammonia so it isn't available to the bacteria.

It would be neat to know for sure.

 

It's hard to know if the ammonia compounds these water treatments make out of the ammonia are available or not to the bacteria.

Ideally, the bacteria would be able to eat the ammonia from these ammonia compounds, but the fish would be safe. However it may well be that these compounds lock up the ammonia so it isn't available to the bacteria.

It would be neat to know for sure.

I know that Prime doesn't lock up the ammonia as it is available for the bio-filter which is why you can do a regular cycle with it. BUT so far there seems to be an issue with these products with the way TSS is stored to keep the BB alive in the bottle when using these products.

 

Jsigmo Your research is the first time I've seen a name for an ammonia compound that wasn't either ammonia or ammonium even though we've both speculated that it might not be either. I wonder if Prime also converts ammonia into aminomethylsulfinate. It seems plausible considering the relationship between the complexed hydrosulfite salts (Prime) and hydroxymethansesulfinate (AquaSafe). I find it curious that Prime can detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, but AquaSafe doesn't make that claim. Does the addition of formaldehyde prevent this added benefit, or is it due to something else entirely? Or is it capable of doing this too? Not that I expect anybody to be able to answer that question, but I'm curious. Answers are hard to come by.

If the natural bacteria that colonizes our filter media is capable of using the form of ammonia that Prime converts ammonia to (which Seachem claims), then you wouldn't think that what Prime does to ammonia would cause the bacteria in TSS to starve. It should be able to use that form of ammonia just as well as the bacteria in a filter. Or... maybe our filter bacteria isn't as capable of using it as we've been lead to believe, (which I think is what you might be getting at in your above post). Or... the bacteria in TSS still isn't the same bacteria as in our filters and isn't as capable of using it.

Saying the ammonia is still in a usable form after dosing Prime, what other factors could be responsible for the incompatibility of the products? Again, probably impossible to answer. I haven't been having any luck.

Maybe Tetra's answer will shed some light when you hear back from them.

I used SafeStart when it first came onto the market. Back then the instructions said to use only Aqua Safe when using SafeStart, and there was no waiting period. But since that time, things have changed. I don't know if it is because the reformulated Aqua Safe to remove chloramines, or not though.

For years I had an old bottle of AquaSafe kicking around. I thought I'd have a look for it to see what was listed on it, but I guess I got tired of it taking up space at some point and tossed it. I'm positive at one time it didn't treat chloramines, but what the chemicals in it were, I don't know. Maybe it was always capable of treating chloramines, but it just wasn't advertised on the bottle. It's interesting they use to say to use it, and now they don't though, so either they've changed it, or it took them a while to learn that the two products didn't work well together, like cmclien said.

That explains why Prime smells so much of sulfur.

Also, I am thinking they didn't figure out TSS was being effected by these products for awhile. I always was reading that it didn't work ( a couple of years ago) probably because people were using these products at the same time.

Unfortunately TSS still doesn't always work, even when people wait 24 to 48 hours after using one of these products before adding the TSS.

 

That's why its confusing that Seachem says it can be used with cycling bacteria and Tetra says it can't. I know Seachems claim is true about the converted ammonia and nitrites being available for the bio-filter because so many people have cycled with fish in and have used prime alone to keep their fish safe during this cycling process.

 

Lots of good questions going on in this thread!

First: I did get an answer on Tetra's Q&A area. They answered very early today. That's great. Thanks, Tetra!

But at that point, I wasn't asking about how it might or might not affect TSS. I just asked if it had something in it that would deal with the ammonia.

They say that their product does include a substance to detoxify the ammonia that is released when the chloramine molecule is stripped of its chlorine atom. So that is confirmation of what we figured based on our reading of the Wikipedia article about the Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate we see listed on the back of the bottle.

I suspect that a lot of these water conditioners use the very same, or at least a similar chemical to sequester the chlorine, and then also sequester the ammonia. It seems convenient because it accomplishes all three of those goals with one ingredient.

@Jsigmo Your research is the first time I've seen a name for an ammonia compound that wasn't either ammonia or ammonium even though we've both speculated that it might not be either. I wonder if Prime also converts ammonia into aminomethylsulfinate. It seems plausible considering the relationship between the complexed hydrosulfite salts (Prime) and hydroxymethansesulfinate (AquaSafe). I find it curious that Prime can detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, but AquaSafe doesn't make that claim. Does the addition of formaldehyde prevent this added benefit, or is it due to something else entirely? Or is it capable of doing this too? Not that I expect anybody to be able to answer that question, but I'm curious. Answers are hard to come by.

It does seem like complete answers are hard to come by.

I think they may both use the exact same stuff to perform the reduction of the chlorine and simultaneously the complexing of the ammonia. But I think Prime just has an additional ingredient to deal with nitrites and nitrates.

I got the impression that the formaldehyde was just one of the compounds used when making the Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate. And re-reading, it also sounds like, under acidic conditions, formaldehyde can be released from it, so they say that can be a concern in some applications. Hopefully this doesn't happen in an aquarium situation. We don't want to embalm our fish!

If the natural bacteria that colonizes our filter media is capable of using the form of ammonia that Prime converts ammonia to (which Seachem claims), then you wouldn't think that what Prime does to ammonia would cause the bacteria in TSS to starve. It should be able to use that form of ammonia just as well as the bacteria in a filter.

Exactly. Since we seed a new aquarium with TSS, one would imagine those are the same species of bacteria that we have a few weeks, months, or years later.

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I thought I remembered reading in some of the literature for one of these bacteria starters, that they did something to encapsulate the bacteria in some kind of nutrient shell or something, and that allowed the bacteria to survive for the extended periods while it's in the bottle on the shelf, waiting for us to put it into an aquarium. Regardless, there must be some kind of "soup" of nutrients in the bottle with the bacteria to keep it alive.

Perhaps, once we dump the bottle into the aquarium, it becomes more vulnerable. Or perhaps, the free-floating bacteria has a harder time breaking down these ammonia compounds, but once the bacteria becomes established and attached to surfaces as a large colony, it can break the bonds that must be broken to free up the ammonia.

Also, since these starter cultures must contain both the kind of bacteria that metabolizes ammonia into nitrite AND the type that metabolizes the nitrite into nitrate, maybe it's the nitrite-eating bacteria that gets killed by Prime since Prime supposedly makes nitrites safe, too. And, when the bacteria are all free-floating, the nitrite-eating bacteria needs free nitrite to survive, but once the two colonize a surface, the nitrite-eaters can feed directly from the excretions of the ammonia-eaters that are right there in the same slime-layer. So they don't get starved by the nitrite-binding of Prime since that happens only out in the water, and it cannot penetrate into the biofilm to interrupt the food path between adjacent bacteria cells. If that makes any sense!

If that's correct, it would provide a scenario where Prime doesn't starve an established bacteria colony, but could starve free-floating bacteria (at least, the nitrite-eaters). Just wild speculation, but hey!

That's why its confusing that Seachem says it can be used with cycling bacteria and Tetra says it can't. I know Seachems claim is true about the converted ammonia and nitrites being available for the bio-filter because so many people have cycled with fish in and have used prime alone to keep their fish safe during this cycling process.

It does seem odd to get differing reports and claims.

Maybe it comes down to just letting the TSS or other "Bottle 'O Bacteria" have a few days so that some of it can become attached to surfaces before hitting the tank with anything like Prime. Perhaps Prime (and other similar products) will kill off the free-floating bacteria, but won't harm it once it's attached and building a bit of a slime layer.

Maybe the secret to success is simply to treat the water (if you must) with something like Prime. Wait a day or two, and add TSS. Then wait at least a few more days, preferably longer, before adding more of something like Prime.

 

With my 55 gallon I plan on cycling with TSS. Been thinking a lot about what route to go as far as what Ill add in what order, as I don't want to hurt the BB in the TSS. I'll probably use prime but wait 72 hours before adding the TSS, and add the plants in from the start. My tap is fairly high in ammonia, so I figure let the prime wear off as not to hurt the TSS, and then monitor the ammonia level for a day or two after adding the TSS before I add the fish.

 

Do note that on SeaChem's website the Prime Q&A says that they have been told by users of Prime that nitrites are being detoxed. One would think if Prime really detoxed nitrites, SeaChem would know about it, and not depend on the word of users. So I am not 100% confident that Prime really does detox nitrites.

 

Maybe, though it seems like Seachem is one of the few aquatics company I have always trusted. I have emailed them in the past about this and they always tell me one dose of Prime will detoxify up to 1.0 ammonia + nitrites, if you have ammonia + nitrites greater than 1.0 you should double dose. Plus on a goldfish forum I have been on for years, pretty much every one who cycles with fish in doesn't use TSS (probably not knowing you have to use it 24 hours in advance of TSS) and their fish remain unharmed all the way through the cycling process.
In the forum they tell all users to use this forumula while cycling which has worked great (if you're going without TSS)

If ammonia + nitrites is less than 1.0 - double dose Prime and re-check in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater- do a very large water change, as much as possible, double dose prime and re-check in 24 hours.

Following this formula, no ones fish have ever died (that I know of) during the cycling process. And seeing that nitrites can spike during cycling up to over 4.0, I would think if this wasn't true we'd see some serious harm or death.

They have also said if you have a large nitrite spike like above you can safely does 5x Prime to detoxify the nitrites. You wouldn't want to do that every day of course but until you can get to do a water change.

 

Here is what Seachem's website says on Prime. Does this make sense to you chemistry folks? They are saying whatever binder they use renders not only ammonia but nitrite and nitrate non-toxic. Did someone here say they use the same binder? or was it different than Tetra's?



Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).

Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the reef hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.

 

I suspect that a lot of these water conditioners use the very same, or at least a similar chemical to sequester the chlorine, and then also sequester the ammonia. It seems convenient because it accomplishes all three of those goals with one ingredient.

Plus these chemicals can also remove heavy metals. What else are they doing to the water? It's not like it's separate chemicals doing separate jobs.

I think they may both use the exact same stuff to perform the reduction of the chlorine and simultaneously the complexing of the ammonia. But I think Prime just has an additional ingredient to deal with nitrites and nitrates.

The only ingredient Seachem lists in the MSDS for Prime is Proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts. They don't give us a clue on what else is in this solution that I can see. If other things were included, wouldn't they have to be listed on the MSDS? I guess not if they were safe ingredients like eggs, flour and margarine, and not those of course, but any chemical that is capable of dealing with nitrites and nitrates would surely find it's way onto the MSDS I would think. So, maybe this complexed hydrosulfite salts not only reacts to chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia, but to heavy metals, nitrites and nitrates, and heaven knows what else.

I got the impression that the formaldehyde was just one of the compounds used when making the Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate. And re-reading, it also sounds like, under acidic conditions, formaldehyde can be released from it, so they say that can be a concern in some applications. Hopefully this doesn't happen in an aquarium situation. We don't want to embalm our fish!

Yes, I agree, it's part of the compound for Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate. I was looking at this compound similar to chloramines, in that it starts off with chlorine and ammonia is added to make chloramines. With Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate, it starts off using the same component in Prime, hydrosulfite salts to which formaldehyde is added to make Sodium Hydroxymethane Sulfinate. So in my weird way of thinking, AquaSafe should be capable of much the same reactions as Prime, unless formaldehyde interferes with some of the processes.

That's probably too simplistic of a way to think about it. There has to be more to Prime than just dissolving hydrosulfite salts into water to make a solution. They do call it complexed, which I'm not sure what they mean by that.

Also, since these starter cultures must contain both the kind of bacteria that metabolizes ammonia into nitrite AND the type that metabolizes the nitrite into nitrate, maybe it's the nitrite-eating bacteria that gets killed by Prime since Prime supposedly makes nitrites safe, too.

That's certainly something to consider.

Maybe the secret to success is simply to treat the water (if you must) with something like Prime. Wait a day or two, and add TSS. Then wait at least a few more days, preferably longer, before adding more of something like Prime.

It seems to me that you can't add Prime at any time during the TSS process, until the tank's cycle is complete, or you run the risk of messing up the cycle.

With my 55 gallon I plan on cycling with TSS. Been thinking a lot about what route to go as far as what Ill add in what order, as I don't want to hurt the BB in the TSS. I'll probably use prime but wait 72 hours before adding the TSS, and add the plants in from the start. My tap is fairly high in ammonia, so I figure let the prime wear off as not to hurt the TSS, and then monitor the ammonia level for a day or two after adding the TSS before I add the fish.

That could work, but you'd still have to be careful on the number of fish you add.

Do note that on SeaChem's website the Prime Q&A says that they have been told by users of Prime that nitrites are being detoxed. One would think if Prime really detoxed nitrites, SeaChem would know about it, and not depend on the word of users. So I am not 100% confident that Prime really does detox nitrites.

That's a cleaver disclaimer. You know... I've kept fish a lot of years and I don't think I would have noticed that a product detoxified a nitrogen product. Is it customer opinion that Prime detoxifies nitrates too? I wonder what users based that finding on.

Maybe, though it seems like Seachem is one of the few aquatics company I have always trusted. I have emailed them in the past about this and they always tell me one dose of Prime will detoxify up to 1.0 ammonia + nitrites, if you have ammonia + nitrites greater than 1.0 you should double dose. Plus on a goldfish forum I have been on for years, pretty much every one who cycles with fish in doesn't use TSS (probably not knowing you have to use it 24 hours in advance of TSS) and their fish remain unharmed all the way through the cycling process.
In the forum they tell all users to use this forumula while cycling which has worked great (if you're going without TSS)

If ammonia + nitrites is less than 1.0 - double dose Prime and re-check in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater- do a very large water change, as much as possible, double dose prime and re-check in 24 hours.

Following this formula, no ones fish have ever died (that I know of) during the cycling process. And seeing that nitrites can spike during cycling up to over 4.0, I would think if this wasn't true we'd see some serious harm or death.

They have also said if you have a large nitrite spike like above you can safely does 5x Prime to detoxify the nitrites. You wouldn't want to do that every day of course but until you can get to do a water change.

The thing with this is, it's also possible to cycle a tank without using Prime and have no fish loss, especially with goldfish. By monitoring the ammonia and nitrites and keeping the levels relatively low, the fish are already being somewhat protected. When I help someone with an ammonia issue, I try to get them to bring the levels down below .25 even if they are using Prime. Part of the reason for doing that is... I simply don't trust Prime that much and hate putting my faith into a product. Keeping levels low is half the battle. After that, I couldn't really say if Prime helps or not. I assume it does, because I'm told it does, but in no way would I leave fish in 1ppm ammonia or nitrites and just dose Prime. I'd be doing water changes.

Here is what Seachem's website says on Prime. Does this make sense to you chemistry folks? They are saying whatever binder they use renders not only ammonia but nitrite and nitrate non-toxic. Did someone here say they use the same binder? or was it different than Tetra's?

It is different because a different product is formed when formaldehyde is added. How that changes things, I'm still not clear on.

 

The thing with this is, it's also possible to cycle a tank without using Prime and have no fish loss, especially with goldfish. By monitoring the ammonia and nitrites and keeping the levels relatively low, the fish are already being somewhat protected. When I help someone with an ammonia issue, I try to get them to bring the levels down below .25 even if they are using Prime. Part of the reason for doing that is... I simply don't trust Prime that much and hate putting my faith into a product. Keeping levels low is half the battle. After that, I couldn't really say if Prime helps or not. I assume it does, because I'm told it does, but in no way would I leave fish in 1ppm ammonia or nitrites and just dose Prime. I'd be doing water changes.
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I just would think if it wasn't doing its job, cycling the way they do on the other forum with 1.0 being the point of a water change you would think people would experience fish loss, especially in situations of higher ph.
The reasoning given for using 1.0 is if you change the water out too often it will take the cycle much longer to finish because there won't be an adequate supply of ammonia and nitrites to form the bacteria at a quicker rate. I think this is true because before I knew this I basically did what you said (with Prime in the water) and I changed out a good 75% water a day and it took my cycle 12 weeks to complete. It was awful and I used a lot of water! lol

I'll send an email to Seachem to ask them what specifically they do to detoxify the nitrites and nitrates and see what kind of answer I get.

Wow, they got back to me in less than 5 minutes in response to what ingredient they use to detox nitrites and nitrates and metals. Here was the answer which unfortunately was not much help.

Cindi,

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately that specific information is proprietary so we will be unable to share the ingredient list with you. All I can tell you is that it is a proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts.
Have a nice day!

 

I just would think if it wasn't doing its job, cycling the way they do on the other forum with 1.0 being the point of a water change you would think people would experience fish loss, especially in situations of higher ph.
The reasoning given for using 1.0 is if you change the water out too often it will take the cycle much longer to finish because there won't be an adequate supply of ammonia and nitrites to form the bacteria at a quicker rate. I think this is true because before I knew this I basically did what you said (with Prime in the water) and I changed out a good 75% water a day and it took my cycle 12 weeks to complete. It was awful and I used a lot of water! lol

I'll send an email to Seachem to ask them what specifically they do to detoxify the nitrites and nitrates and see what kind of answer I get.

See, and this is part of the reason I think bacteria have to work harder to use the form of ammonia Prime creates, or aren't able to use it as well. It never use to take me 12 weeks to cycle, keeping levels low, without Prime. 4 to 6 weeks was pretty standard. Some tanks with a lower bio-load cycled faster.

Wow, they got back to me in less than 5 minutes in response to what ingredient they use to detox nitrites and nitrates and metals. Here was the answer which unfortunately was not much help.

Cindi,

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately that specific information is proprietary so we will be unable to share the ingredient list with you. All I can tell you is that it is a proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts.
Have a nice day!

I want to laugh, but yep, it's much what I would have expected for an answer judging by the answers on Q&A's. I don't know how we are going to successfully answer your original question, but maybe more digging on the internet on what these specific chemicals do to bacteria might yield some answers from a government fish and wildlife site, or something like that. I think we have to stop looking at it as Prime and concentrate more on the one and only chemical they list (two if we include the one in AquaSafe). I expect that may not tell us the whole tale if other chemicals are involved, but we can see what we can find. Jsigmo is a pretty resourceful guy, so he may think of another angle to try too.

 

toosie I would monitor the ammonia levels with extreme scrutiny before adding fish. That's part of why I plan on letting the TSS a work on eating the ammonia before adding fish to produce more. I learned the hard way about ammonia my first time around, claimed my school of Cardinal Tetra and my poor peppered Cory. You and Jsigmo were both tremendously helpful in helping me understand the way ammonia works. Once I get the tank ready to go I'll definitely keep a running thread with the progress.

 

toosie I would monitor the ammonia levels with extreme scrutiny before adding fish. That's part of why I plan on letting the TSS a work on eating the ammonia before adding fish to produce more. I learned the hard way about ammonia my first time around, claimed my school of Cardinal Tetra and my poor peppered Cory. You and Jsigmo were both tremendously helpful in helping me understand the way ammonia works. Once I get the tank ready to go I'll definitely keep a running thread with the progress.

Sounds good. Just be sure to add fish before all of the ammonia in the water has been converted. It might not be too good to let it get all the way to 0. I imagine you've thought of that though, and will be prepared to go fish shopping when the time is right.

 

toosie I sure have. I don't want the BB to die off due to lack of food. I plan on pre-seeding my media to some extent in my 10g, but I know it won't be nearly enough to cycle a 55g, the TSS will be filling in the Gap. If I'm not able to get fish immediately I can borrow the guppies from the 10 gallon temporarily, they are such little poop machines!

Edited to add: just an interesting thought. Tetra claims that you shouldn't use TSS in conjunction with things like aquasafe+ or prime, but the TSS bottle says you should add a capful after you do a water change. Wouldn't the prime or Aquasafe used in the treated water for a WC render the TSS that's also supposed to be used for a WC useless? Maybe I should ask Tetra this!

 

Hi, I think on their website they say not to do a waterchange for two weeks, so by that time the benficial bacteria must be in a state that they can consume the detoxified ammonia and nitrites.

 

toosie I sure have. I don't want the BB to die off due to lack of food. I plan on pre-seeding my media to some extent in my 10g, but I know it won't be nearly enough to cycle a 55g, the TSS will be filling in the Gap. If I'm not able to get fish immediately I can borrow the guppies from the 10 gallon temporarily, they are such little poop machines!

Edited to add: just an interesting thought. Tetra claims that you shouldn't use TSS in conjunction with things like aquasafe+ or prime, but the TSS bottle says you should add a capful after you do a water change. Wouldn't the prime or Aquasafe used in the treated water for a WC render the TSS that's also supposed to be used for a WC useless? Maybe I should ask Tetra this!

IMO, once a tank is cycled, there is no need to add more product with water changes. I don't see any benefit for you to continue to add it. Maybe if you added extra fish, but if you only add a couple at a time, even then you probably don't really need it.

 

toosie I agree, the only way I could see it maybe being beneficial is if you were replacing a portion of your biomedia, but otherwise it shouldnt be needed, and even then replacing bio media should be done very sparingly, and in very small portions. Maybe they just want people to continue using it so theyll buy more? Wouldnt surprise me. If only someone would invent Primestart, the ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite detoxifier that also dechlorinates, detoxifies heavy metals, and adds a full colony of BB to the tank! ;-b All of our problems would be solved lol