TSS+ cycling (fast and fishless)

Hello!

Five days ago I set up my tank (a 20g, no fish, no plants, just filter/heater), about...three? days ago I added around 2ppm of ammonia I think and a bottle of TSS+. I left it until today, tested everything and it looks like 0/2/5. I don't know what to do actually, past this point. Dose another 2ppm? I don't think I'm supposed to add Prime (which would be doing a water change) until at least 7 days after I add TSS+.
Thanks!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

Hello!

Five days ago I set up my tank (a 20g, no fish, no plants, just filter/heater), about...three? days ago I added around 2ppm of ammonia I think and a bottle of TSS+. I left it until today, tested everything and it looks like 0/2/5. I don't know what to do actually, past this point. Dose another 2ppm? I don't think I'm supposed to add Prime (which would be doing a water change) until at least 7 days after I add TSS+.
Thanks!

-SeaGlassAnimals

What is the 0/2/5 in your post? 0 ammonia, 2 nitrites and 5 nitrates?

A tank isn’t fully cycled until it can fully process 2 - 3 ppm of ammonia into nitrites and then nitrates in 24 hours. In other words, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and some level of nitrates 24 hours after dosing ammonia.

What are you using to test and have you tested your source water for nitrites and nitrates?

 

Hello!

Five days ago I set up my tank (a 20g, no fish, no plants, just filter/heater), about...three? days ago I added around 2ppm of ammonia I think and a bottle of TSS+. I left it until today, tested everything and it looks like 0/2/5. I don't know what to do actually, past this point. Dose another 2ppm? I don't think I'm supposed to add Prime (which would be doing a water change) until at least 7 days after I add TSS+.
Thanks!

-SeaGlassAnimals

Ignore the Prime instructions from TSS+, there is no reason why Prime would interfere.

Looks like progress is great! Ammonia is being converted to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate, which is awesome.

You don't have to do anything right now. Wait until both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero, and then re-dose 2ppm ammonia. Then wait again until both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero. Repeat until this can happen within 24 hours - i.e. 2ppm ammonia is fully converted to nitrate in 24 hours. That's when your tank is cycled.

Judging by your progress, hopefully soon-ish!

 

What is the 0/2/5 in your post? 0 ammonia, 2 nitrites and 5 nitrates?

What are you using to test and have you tested your source water for nitrites and nitrates?

Yes! I had my dad double check against a light, as well, and he thought those were the numbers. I just took a quick photo of it - please let me know if it's any good! I don't know how people take photos of their tests, I ended up dropping one in my sink while taking a photo, haha.


I tested my tank water before adding the ammonia and TSS+ and got .25/0/.5, I think, but I'm not the best at reading, but that's my best guess. I could test my tap water and take a photo of that too?

I'm using an API master test kit!

Ignore the Prime instructions from TSS+, there is no reason why Prime would interfere.

I have no idea why it would, but I read in a post that it shouldn't be. I emailed Tetra about it just in case but only got "Prime should not be used simultaneously with it, at least once a day, and directly into the tank, generally." I don't really know what that means, though. If I don't need to do a water change for a while, then I don't think it matters, luckily!

Looks like progress is great! Ammonia is being converted to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate, which is awesome.

You don't have to do anything right now. Wait until both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero, and then re-dose 2ppm ammonia. Then wait again until both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero. Repeat until this can happen within 24 hours - i.e. 2ppm ammonia is fully converted to nitrate in 24 hours. That's when your tank is cycled.

Judging by your progress, hopefully soon-ish!

Thank you so much! I'm so excited for this - I'll test the nitrites/nitrates tomorrow and see how it looks, and add more.

Will I need to do any water changes? Does it typically only take one more dose or multiple tries for the bacteria to be able to convert ammonia within 24 hours? Also, will the bacteria that converts ammonia be starved if I don't add more while waiting for nitrite converting bacteria to grow?
Thanks again!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

I have no idea why it would, but I read in a post that it shouldn't be. I emailed Tetra about it just in case but only got "Prime should not be used simultaneously with it, at least once a day, and directly into the tank, generally." I don't really know what that means, though. If I don't need to do a water change for a while, then I don't think it matters, luckily!

Tetra says a lot of things that seems off. They also say 2-3ppm ammonia can already harm the nitrifiers in the product: Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 58116, but that's odd because no other product has that requirement. From personal experience - whether I used Brightwell, Fritz, or established biomedia, ammonia and nitrite can be much higher than that and they grow just fine. So long story short, perhaps ignore a lot of what Tetra says, they may not really be that knowledgeable (even if their product works great!).

Thank you so much! I'm so excited for this - I'll test the nitrites/nitrates tomorrow and see how it looks, and add more. Will I need to do any water changes, and does it typically only take one more dose or multiple tries for the bacteria to be able to convert ammonia within 24 hours?
Thanks again!

No, no water changes. I mean sometimes it can be important to do a water change during a fishless cycle, but not normally.

It does often take multiple tries to get bacteria to convert all ammonia to nitrate within 24 hours.

 

I have no idea why it would, but I read in a post that it shouldn't be. I emailed Tetra about it just in case but only got "Prime should not be used simultaneously with it, at least once a day, and directly into the tank, generally." I don't really know what that means, though. If I don't need to do a water change for a while, then I don't think it matters, luckily!

According to Tetra (the manufacturer of Safestart Plus). . .

“In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS.”

See the full Q&A from Tetra here: Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 58116

Although a few (very few) folks here claim to know more than several manufacturers of fish keeping supplies, I’d recommend dosing Prime and TSS+ according to Tetra’s recommendation.

Your cycle seems to be progressing, but I’d still suggest testing your source water if you haven’t already. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Just to piggyback on what Dunk said, every water conditioner that I am aware of has the ability to remove chloramines. Therefore you really need to wait at least 24 hours after using any water conditioner before adding TSS+

 

I tested the tank again this evening, and it's 0/0/somewhere between orange and red.
I added some ammonia (guessing a random amount to add) and let the tank run for a while before testing the ammonia, which is around 2ppm. I'll check everything tomorrow and see how it goes, but it looks like progress is continuing!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

Great so far friend! "Somewhere between orange and red" sounds like 40ppm which is what many folks consider to be the upper limit of okay when stocked with fish (40-80, though some say 100+ is fine - I've experienced between 5 and 80, all of which were healthy tanks with happy fish).

My preferred method of cycling's always seeded sponges from bigger, heavier stocked tanks, and I use bottled bacteria supplements occasionally. I'm now using supplements more since breaking down my big, amazing goldfish tank due to dojo loaches murdering the goldies...Seachem brand.

Although uncommon, I've heard of TSS+ cycling tanks in a matter of days. You've been cycling it for 3 days if my math is right. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones! Anyhow, good luck friend and I hope your cycling goes well

 

I tested the tank again this evening, and it's 0/0/somewhere between orange and red.
I added some ammonia (guessing a random amount to add) and let the tank run for a while before testing the ammonia, which is around 2ppm. I'll check everything tomorrow and see how it goes, but it looks like progress is continuing!

-SeaGlassAnimals

How is you cycle progressing?

 

Hello everyone! I somehow turned off notifications and it's been a busy few days, whoops! I'm very happy to see people are still checking in, thank you all

Great so far friend! "Somewhere between orange and red" sounds like 40ppm which is what many folks consider to be the upper limit of okay when stocked with fish (40-80, though some say 100+ is fine - I've experienced between 5 and 80, all of which were healthy tanks with happy fish).

Awesome! I will hopefully keep the nitrates much lower when I stock the tank, and I think that just having a single betta (current plans) will help!

My preferred method of cycling's always seeded sponges from bigger, heavier stocked tanks, and I use bottled bacteria supplements occasionally. I'm now using supplements more since breaking down my big, amazing goldfish tank due to dojo loaches murdering the goldies...Seachem brand.

I wish I could seed my tank, but it looks like I'll need to make more local fishy oriented friends if I start from scratch again! I'm sorry to hear about the goldies Goldfish get so big, I wouldn't have thought anything like loaches could get them!

Although uncommon, I've heard of TSS+ cycling tanks in a matter of days. You've been cycling it for 3 days if my math is right. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones! Anyhow, good luck friend and I hope your cycling goes well

I haven't kept the best track of the days, but I think I started this thread at 3 days! I'm coming up on a week, soon!

How is you cycle progressing?

I lost track of which days I posted, so here's the entire timeline so far:

Sunday: Set up the tank, dosed prime
Wednesday (I think, maybe Tuesday): 2/0/.5, added TSS+ and ammonia.
Friday: 0/2/.5
Saturday: 0/0/orange-red, added 2ppm ammonia
Sunday: 0/purple/reddy
Monday: only tested nitrites which was at 0, added ammonia (didn't test and check it, it was very late at night, haha. I went for what I thought would be 2ppm)
Tuesday (today): 0 ammonia, around 2ppm nitrites.

At the moment, it looks like the tank cycles 2ppm of ammonia within 24 hours and the nitrites within another 24 hours, so it takes two days. I don't know if there's anything else to do or if this is the right way, so advice is appreciated!
I'm probably going to top it off with some conditioned water though, because even with a lid the water evaporates quite quickly.
I wanted to ask about the filter - I think it's a Tetra IQ 10 (it's been a while since I bought it), with a coarse sponge, filter floss, and lil ceramic pieces in it. It's currently running at full power, but I want to get a betta and will probably lower it. I don't really know how the gph/flow rate/filtering effectiveness relationship works, though.

Thank you again, everyone, for stopping in!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

Sunday: Set up the tank, dosed prime
Wednesday (I think, maybe Tuesday): 2/0/.5, added TSS+ and ammonia.
Friday: 0/2/.5
Saturday: 0/0/orange-red, added 2ppm ammonia
Sunday: 0/purple/reddy
Monday: only tested nitrites which was at 0, added ammonia (didn't test and check it, it was very late at night, haha. I went for what I thought would be 2ppm)
Tuesday (today): 0 ammonia, around 2ppm nitrites.

"...seven...days..." (so sorry, I had to quote The Ring)

We all appreciate you updating this thread! Even 'experienced' folks like me learn new or better ways to cycle a tank. Sounds odd, I know, but I'd never really heard of folks not using Prime at all during TSS+ so it's nice to know this works for you. I'm planning to try fish-less cycling again (it's been so many years I've forgotten how). If I might ask, how often do you test ammonia via Master Test Kit? What ammonia source did you use?

Thank you friend, and I wish you good luck

 

I'm one of the local chemistry wannabes and get way into the weeds often about product interactions but to be honest I had never looked up the q and a for tss+ vs prime etc. This might explain why I've have good luck with tss+ and have had others say they didn't; I don't use any water conditioners with my water source. When I started fish keeping I didn't have a ton of tanks to steal media from and to start second tanks up "instantly" for fry I used tss+ fairly frequently with good results.

Glad to see you here in an engaging conversation doing your testing and progressing. You probably have a future in the hobby.

 

"...seven...days..." (so sorry, I had to quote The Ring)

We all appreciate you updating this thread! Even 'experienced' folks like me learn new or better ways to cycle a tank. Sounds odd, I know, but I'd never really heard of folks not using Prime at all during TSS+ so it's nice to know this works for you. I'm planning to try fish-less cycling again (it's been so many years I've forgotten how). If I might ask, how often do you test ammonia via Master Test Kit? What ammonia source did you use?

Thank you friend, and I wish you good luck

References are always appreciated, and thank you!
I dosed Prime when I originally set up the tank, but gave it 2-3 days before adding TSS+. I wondered if other people avoid conditioners, or at least Prime, and if it makes a difference?

I'm as lazy as possible with testing I try to test ammonia when I first add it so I know the starting point, and then I check it a day later. Once it hits 0 and I'm just waiting on nitrites, I only test for nitrites and stop testing ammonia until I add more because the ammonia would still be at 0.

I'm using Dr. Tim's ammonia! Or "ammonium chloride solution." It's the small, clear bottle!

I'm one of the local chemistry wannabes and get way into the weeds often about product interactions but to be honest I had never looked up the q and a for tss+ vs prime etc. This might explain why I've have good luck with tss+ and have had others say they didn't; I don't use any water conditioners with my water source. When I started fish keeping I didn't have a ton of tanks to steal media from and to start second tanks up "instantly" for fry I used tss+ fairly frequently with good results.

Glad to see you here in an engaging conversation doing your testing and progressing. You probably have a future in the hobby.

I looked at the Q&A a long time ago, and honestly should've read up but decided to wing it a bit. I'm happy that TSS+ worked for you!

Thank you! I tried to get into the hobby back in 2020 with a previous betta, but despite trying it just didn't go very well, and poor genetic luck with him made me really frustrated and leave for a while. I have more time and more capability, this time around, and I'm excited to dive in again! (pun intended). I also never talked with other fish keepers, so it's much more fun already

Today nitrites were at 0, so I dosed 1ppm of ammonia to see how it goes!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

Oh boy, boys, gals, and nb pals! It looks like we've gotten somewhere? :O

I haven't been very good at testing at the same time every day so it's been more like 24 hrs + 8.5, but close enough! I added 1ppm of ammonia yesterday and tested tonight, and it's 0/0/~160. The nitrates are super high, but I think that's pretty darn close to a full cycle, right?
What's next on the order of operations? Water change, dosing more ammonia (1ppm? 2ppm?), do a little dance?

 

I think you can do a little dance, it appears the tank is cycled. I would do a large water change to get those nitrates way down and start adding fish.

 

I think you can do a little dance, it appears the tank is cycled. I would do a large water change to get those nitrates way down and start adding fish.

Thanks! I just did around a 50% water change with Prime. The nitrates are still very high, so I'll need to do another - how much water can I change at a time during a fishless cycle, and how often should I?
I also added the water and then dosed Prime, I'm not sure if the order matters too much. The tank is up high and I can't lift much, so I had to take several trips and it's hard to add the right amount of Prime to ~3 gallons of water.
I also finally added some decorations! It's all fake stuff (silk plants and that sort of thing) but it makes me so happy to look at the tank!

-SeaGlassAnimals

 

how much water can I change at a time during a fishless cycle

100%.

, and how often should I?

You can do it as frequently as you like, but then you may need to keep re-adding an ammonia source so generally it is unneeded to do (any) water changes.

I also added the water and then dosed Prime, I'm not sure if the order matters too much. The tank is up high and I can't lift much, so I had to take several trips and it's hard to add the right amount of Prime to ~3 gallons of water.

It shouldn't, nitrifiers are pretty resilient and can most likely handle a short period of time interacting with chlorine/chloramine, especially at this stage. But it's still preferable to dose Prime first. Especially when you eventually have live stock. Depending on the concentration of chlorine/chloramine in the water, fish can react pretty quickly to it and be harmed each time.

 

Hello everyone!

I did a massive water change and refilled the tank (my poor arms) + added Prime, made sure the decorations looked good enough, made sure it was ready to go, and got a betta! He's super cute and I'm very excited to have him with me! He's a little jumpy around me but it bravely exploring his tank!

Thank you so much for responding with advice and encouragement, I appreciate all of it so much! It's a great welcome to the forum and I'm glad I joined.

Here's the chart of what I did, if anyone wants to see the final summary:


-SeaGlassAnimals

 

GOOD JOB! I suggest that in the short term you keep an eye on your Ammonia and Nitrites just to be sure your new biological filter does not have a hiccup. Maybe test each week before your water change for a few weeks. This also helps give you piece of mind.