Trying to right 2 wrongs (2 poor goldies)

Hello All,

I'm a first time poster but have been scouring this site fairly religiously the past 3 weeks or so trying to get info.

My kids won 2 carnie goldfish back in Sept. and not really knowing anything about minimum tank sizes and whatnot we picked up a kit aquarium from petsmart....a 1.7G Marina tank.

Surprisingly, the fish survived the first weekend (was kind of surprised on that, was not expecting much) and I've been keeping up on tank maintenance per the instructions on that were given; ie weekly water changes, change filter media monthly, use Nutrafin cycle weekly and on the filter carts when replacing, etc.

Well, after being on this site for a couple of weeks I realized how much of a disservice I am doing these little guys. First thing I did last weekend was pick up a test kit and found out a couple of things.
1) Ammonia was good 0 reading
2) Nitrite was at 1 ppm
3) Nitrate at 20ppm
4) ph 7.6

I retested the next day after a PWC (call it 30-40%)
1) Amm .25
2) Nitrite .25
3) Nitrate 20

I got concerned after the ammonia went up so I did something I should have done first...baseline water test. PH at 7 and Amm at .5 ppm

The next day I recheck the big 3 and had 0 / .25 / 40.

Anyway, on to my question. I plan on getting a 30 gal in the next week as per reading here that seems to be the best size for 2 goldies and wanted some advice with a couple of questions.

1) What kind of filter should I look for. I hear (read) a lot of people talk about the Fluval canisters...what GPM should I be looking for in a 30 gal...I thought I heard you want somewhere around 10x the actual tankage.

2) Kind of concerned about the base amm in the house water. I'm going to try to stick the filter cart in the new tank once set up to help it cycle however any waterchange I administer will increase the amm. Is there any water treatment available to take this out?

3) Lights...anything specific I should be looking for or with a freshwater non-tropical I can pretty much go in any direction? Aesthetically I'd like to get something that would give the tank a little bit of a bluish tinge.

4) I understand the Nitrogen cycle and letting the tank cycle before transplanting...is there anything else I should be aware of?

I know most people here are not fans of the Nutrafin Cycle...however is there any "better" water conditioner to use. Right now I'm using the Nutrafin stuff that came with the tank (name escapes me at the moment)?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice. Just want to try to do Sammy and Bluey right (hey...that's what happens when kids name 'em )

 

Well we are certainly glad you joined the group, so welcome to fishlore!!

I hate to tell you that the nutrafin cycle is one of those products that you can't stop using and is really only out there to put money in the companies pockets.

You don't need to add chemicals all the time to tanks once they are setup. So onto your questions.

1) you can get really whatever you decide or can aford. I have the aqueon HOB (Hang On Back also sometimes called HOT Hang On Tank) I liked them because they were the only ones that have the pump in the tank. I do agree thou that the Aqua Clear HOBs are some of the best. In the end its personal preference. As far as sizing them if you want to use an HOB then you should filter 10x your tank volume each hour (if not a bit more as goldies are rather messy) if you want to spend the money on a canister its usually said to aI'm for 5x per hour due to the increased amount of media in the canister.

2) Prime is a great product for treating tap water, you can also use the Nova product line.

3) Nope nothing specific, If you decide to add plants later on than that can change but as far as just the fish go nope nothing specific.

4) A lot, but you'll learn as you go. You have most of hte basics down. The only thing I would say would be that a fishless cycle or using TSS (Tetra Safe Start) would be a great option.

 

Welcome!

With a 30 gal, I don't think a canister is necessary but you could get one. I would get an Aquaclear HOB filter personally. They do a great job.

I would test your tap to see what the ammonia reading is. Prime or Amquel+ will make ammonia and nitrite safe for 24 hours. Those two are highly recommended.

A basic fluorescent tube would do just fine for a non planted tank.

Nutrafin Cycle is not a water conditioner. It is a bacteria additive that isn't that great. A good water conditioner is Prime or NovAqua and Amquel+.

Side note. What kind of goldfish are they? If they are commons which I'm guessing they are since you got them from a carnival, they won't fit a 30. They get up to 12" maybe more and do best in ponds. Heres a thread that can help you ID which type of goldfish you have.
Also, IMO I think its better if you move the goldfish into the 30 gal immediately rather than wait for it to cycle. A 30 gal is a lot better than a 1.7 gal even though it isn't cycled. You can move everything in the 1.7 over to the 30 anyway.

Good Luck!

 

Thanks pirahna....one question though...are you saying that once you start using NF Cycle you can't stop using it or are you saying it's mostly bunk and I'd be better off just letting the tank cycle?

As I stated I know I'm not doing the guys any service right now however I have figured a couple of things out...such as I'm do for a filter replacement this weekend so I used a twisttie to put the filter in the water for a day or two to try to build up some bacteria. Also I realized through water testing that changing the filter and doing a water change the same day is NOT a good idea.

Thanks again!

 

You should never change the filter media unless it is literally falling apart. And I would just stop using NF cycle. You will notice that in a week your tank might "crash" and have spikes of ammonia and nitrite. That is because the land-based bacteria that NF Cycle has died off. Your new aquatic bacteria will now start to colonize. Daily water changes with Prime will is the best solution. Or you can use TSS which is another form of bacteria additive. But TSS actually works, the right way.

 

Once you start you should keep up with it, others have used it with success but to me anything you have to add all the time to a tank is not worth it. I would think you would be better off to start the 30gal and put a bottle of TSS and the fish in and you will have a much better scenario. That is entirely my opinion thou and no one here will fault you for whatever choice you make in that regard.


Changing the filter is also unnecessary as what you really need that filter for is a place for the biomass to grow. I wouldnt even worry about getting rid of it for a good long while.

As far as getting the media to transfer to a new pad, you want closer to a couple weeks or more like a month.

Changing the filter cartridge actually removes all the biomass you have worked so hard to grow. That is why your tests are not so good after the water change and the filter change.


Dang, I got ninjad

 

Thanks GBF...they look like they're either commons or a comets. Maybe one of each...but unlikely.

As far as the Cycle / water conditioner question that was poorly worded by me. I was trying to say that I was originally using the Cycle however I know it's not really considered a good product. I am also using the Nutrafin water condition but the name eludes me at this time so I was asking if there's a better one to use...perhaps one that may help with my stock ammonia issue.

I'll definitely get the 30 purchased and set up (also any suggestions on tank brand or it doesn't really matter) and get them transferred over when necessary. I think I know some people with ponds so I'll ask around when the time comes if they'll be willing to take them. I've had the fish for about 2 months now and I haven't noticed any health issues so I think (again, surprisingly) that they came to us clean.

Another question...when I finally restock the tank should I do anything to "clean it out" out just go ahead and start slowly stocking it once the goldies are relocated?

 

No, actually you'll want to start stocking it right about the time you rehome the goldies if you decide to. Some other goldies are more suited to tank life than commons. So depending on what you like to look at you can just keep it full of fish.

 

wow...thanks for the quick responses you guys. Well, I stopped using the Cycle two weeks ago. I did just get the test kit so unfortunately I do not know what my numbers were before the fact.

Based on my numbers I think my tank is partially cycled...like I said the Amm reading was nil and it only spiked due to my tap water. The Nitrite is still coming up with that trace reading...I took it today however it was quite 0 and it wasn't quite .25. I'm going to re-check all three tomorrow and see where I'm at. I'll also keep the filter media in the tank until it either falls apart or I see a noticeable slowdown of the pump...but I'm only planning on using this tank for another week, tops...just need the time (and money) to collect the necessary pieces.

EDIT - Got trite and trate switched around...that's what 2 nights of almost no sleep does to ya...

 

well if you have nitrite give it a little longer and you'll be there and have some really happy fish that you can enjoy.

 

well if you have nitrite give it a little longer and you'll be there and have some really happy fish that you can enjoy.

Yeah...main issue now is the Nitrates are a lot higher than they should be...but again..if I can get the little guys to survive the next week or so (and if they've made it this long knock on wood) then I think they'll be much happier.

 

Nitrates can easily be controled with water changes. For this discussoin thou we should head over to the Nitrogen Cycle area of the forum.

 

Dang, I got ninjad

Booo yaaa

 

HI there,

If you have the option, get a tank that's wider/longer than taller—gives larger surface area and horizontal swim room. I have canisters on my goldfish tanks and they work great, but they need to be cleaned out often otherwise they become nitrate factories. For this reason, HOB filters maybe easier to maintain—easy access to the media when they need to be rinsed. I like AquaClear as well. Your goldies will grow big, fast. So don’t get too excited getting a whole lot more fish in the new 30gal.

While they’re in the small tank, readings/water quality will not have the chance to stabilize. Don’t worry about testing for now and just change out the water frequently, even daily, to keep the levels from going too high. You will have much easier time once you get the bigger tank with larger volume of water, though it won’t turn perfect overtime. Your fish have proven to you they are tough and will appreciate the new tank! Good luck with them.

 

Hello Jamus and Welcome to Fish Lore!

I hope you enjoy the site.

Ken

 

Thanks Aquarist...My folks had fish growing up...my dream is to eventually setup a reef tank. In still quite the beginner though so I'm starting with FW.

Hello Yuko - Thank for the advice. I was not planning on getting any more fish even when I move to the 30. Once the goldies outgrow the tank I will then restock it with fish that are more suitable (think maybe a neon / DG tank).

Thanks for the advice and welcome all!!!

 

Welcome to FishLore!!

Looks like you're in good hands in this thread

Good luck!

 

heya Jamus, welcome! Having snagged a couple of fair fish myself, I can let you know what worked for me

Fair fish are often commets, rather than commons (I imagine this is because they grow a bit slower and so probably survive for longer in the bags they're kept in); you can tell easily by the tail: short and stubby --> common, a bit more flowy--> commet.

A lot of people will probably disagree with me on this, but I have 2 commets and a common in a 37 (don't worry everybody, just there until the 75 is good to go) and the only way I've found that works to keep it clean is that I have 2 PF60s running on it (large HOB filters, they do about 330GPH each). That's quite a bit of filtration, but goldies are dirty fish. I like the HOBs for goldfish because if you feed them on the surface, they can get swim bladder infections (especially the fair fish seem prone to this). With the HOBs, they provide a place (the water outlet) where I can drop their food and it gets forced beneath the surface and they eat it there.

I also like the PF60s because they have the convenience active carbon filter cartridges AND the biofilter sponges. You can easily change out your cartridges (the PF60s have 2 each, so I like to do them one at a time, with about a week in between each switch so nothing gets too shaken up) but leave your sponges, so everything is kept clean but you don't lose your bacteria colonies. Many will tell you that you don't need active carbon, but I find that with goldies, it just keeps things nicer.
A friend of mine has 2 fair-fish shubunkins in a 20G high with one PF60 on it, and so far it's doing a good job.
Long story short; even if you decide to go with a canister (many will tell you this is better), I'd keep at least a small HOB on your tank for the feeding thing.


Side note; algae wafers are like candy to them. I give mine 3 to wrestle over every other day.
Best of luck to you, your kids, and your new fish!

 

^^^ you make some great points on the filtration for the goldies.

 

^^^ you make some great points on the filtration for the goldies.

Thanks; I learned the hard way! If I knew then what I know now, maybe more of the fish I got from the fair that day would have made it. Now I like to share so nobody else has to learn the way I did.

 

Sooo....regardless of what I do I should over-filter the tank (either 2 smaller filters or one giant one)...that case I'd probably lean more toward the 2 smaller (and that's a relative term...I think I'll pick up 2 filters that are good for the 30.

At least that way if one of them goes I still have adequate filtration and time to replace before things start going bad.

I think I'm going gravel for substrate (thinking maybe a black / blue mix).

I hear people talk a lot about planted tanks however I also heard goldies will chow done on plants. When I finally transplant them is it relatively easy to add plants to an established tank? Can I do it with gravel subtrate?

Hmmm...think that is all for now...I'll post up a pic once I get things rolling.

 

Great idea on the filtration, that sounds like the best way to go for your tank.

As for the plants you can really add them any time. I have heard that goldfish do love to eat plants thou, someone else on here might have more experience than I as I have never kept them.

 

Ok...just picked up some Prime...that should take care of the Amm issue I have.

Also, does anyone know if the Marineland 29 G bowfront is a good tank or not...really having a hard time finding a 29-30 G that I like that won't break the bank.

 

To me a tank is a tank really.

Prime will help detoxify the ammonia for the fish. This will not remove it, but this is the better way as it allows the bacteria to still take up the ammonia and convert it. Also please note that when using this product do not test your water for 24 hours after use of the product otherwise your results will not be accurate.

 

The ammonia issue was with the tapwater. once it's in the tank I haven't had an issue...but I'd like to try avoid poisening my fish

I understand what you are saying but like cars there's varying degrees of design flaws. Was wondering if anyone knew about any specific flaws in that model or brand in general.

 

ah ok, was just making sure you were aware of the testing results, not everyone is.

I do agree on the design flaws in cars but I have never heard of any with the tanks, esspecially if you are buying new. I have only ever bought 2 new tanks the rest have all been from CL

 

I had the same problem with a rescued goldfish & managed to score a 20 & a 29 gallon tank on Craiglist for only $40! Check on your local CL & if you don't find one just put a post in the "wanted" section. That's what I did.

 

Ok, so I found a tank (36 gal Aqueon bowfront) I like...here a list a add-on's I need to pick up.

40 lb gravel - Looking to get black / blue and mix 'em.

Aquaclear 70 - Moves 300 GPH...want to get a second filter HOB filter however there's two issues 1) I don't think funds will allow it up front and 2) not sure what kind of cut-outs will be available on the tank hood.

Maybe a plant or decoration or two.

TSS

Second round I plan to pick up an air pump and some air stones and a second filter (maybe a step smaller like the AC 50) some more tank decorations and maybe upgrade the tank light (looking to try to give the tank a little bit of a blueish tinge so I think I need to a high color temp bulb).

couple of smaller given things - Already picked up a good size bottle of Prime.

Going to pick up some goldfish pellets and algae wafers to supplement their regular diet.

Is there anything else I'm missing?

 

Depending on your local temp sometimes a heater is required, while goldfish are cooler water fish if your ambient temp where they are gets much below 62 they won't be happy.

 

well...coolest my house gets right now is 62...I also have forced hot air heat so no matter where I place the tank in my house it's going to get heated by that to some degree.

Once the golds outgrow the tank I want to go tropical...but who knows how long that will be.

 

And as a side note, when I finally relocate the goldies I was thinking of doing the following:

1)putting in 2-3 live plants
2)getting a small cardinal / neon / bloodfin tetra school
3) get a DG

would this be OK and would I have any room for any other tankmates?

 

not in a 1.7gal tank if that is what your previous tank is, I would think some shrimp would be great in a tank that size thou. Some will say a betta some will say its way to small for a betta but that's a debate for another thread if you go that route.

 

not in a 1.7gal tank if that is what your previous tank is, I would think some shrimp would be great in a tank that size thou. Some will say a betta some will say its way to small for a betta but that's a debate for another thread if you go that route.

Nononono...

I mean once I relocate the Golds out of the 36gal to a pond somewhere would that be a good tank and what else could I put in?

 

oh ok, I thought you were talking of the tank the goldies started in.

Ok a 36 has tons of room for stocking. I would think that a DG could work in there with a nice school any of what you mentioned.

 

Heya Jamus, looks like you're doing well; I can pass on some goldy + plant experience if you're still interested.
Sounds like you're on the right track with the filters, so I won't mess with those, other than to tell you that if you just take off the plastic on the back of the lid (there'll be two pieces of glass, connected by a plastic hinge, and then behind that a piece of plastic which you can cut pieces out for your filter), rather than bothering with cutting pieces off it, you'll save yourself a bit of trouble. Goldfish aren't really jumpers, unless there's lots of flying insects to tempt them, so don't worry.
However, 40lb of gravel for a 36 bow tank (beautiful tank, btw) is really much more than you need for goldfish. You're better off with closer to 20-25lbs (like I said, goldies are dirty, and you're going to have to vacuum all that gravel lol). This would be different for a longer, shallower tank, or if you were going to be working with rooted plants, but the 36 bow is a relatively high tank in relation to it's lengthxwidth, and there's no reason to burden yourself with extra mess.
The plants you're going to want to look for are large, stout, healthy looking anubias (or anubias already rooted to driftwood or lavarock), java ferns, and miramo moss balls. All of these are generally fine with goldfish (at least mine haven't eaten them) . If you feel like feeding them a tasty snack, algae wafers, duck weed, and anacharis (elodea) will help keep their veggie-tastes satisfied. The later two you can just leave to "grow" in your tank, the goldfish will take care of them Many people worry about snail infestations from live plants, but you don't have to. Your goldfish will happily munch any snaily passengers.

 

Nah...the old tank I'm going to shut down but keep it available as a quarantine tank for future purchases.

 

Ok, new issue...looks like one of the golds has contracted some sort of fungus (like coating of white stuff on it's sides). I imagine this is due to the poor water / tank conditions at this time. I'm going to step up my water changes to daily.

I'm about a week away from putting everything together and getting them moved to the bigger tank. How should I handle this? Should I start medicating now or wait until the the new tank is up and running, move the healthy gold to it and then medicate the sick one in the little tank until he's better?

 

You're in a bit of a Catch 22 I think. Generally when you add meds to a tank, you aren't supposed to do water changes daily. But with water quality issues, you need to be doing daily water changes.

Also complicating issues is that you will need to cycle the new tank, so if you do it fishless, it could take 6 weeks. And if you use Tetra SafeStart, you will be exposing the fish to low levels of ammonia for a few days. Healthy fish can take it in stride, but sick fish may not.

So this is a tough one, but since Goldies can be pretty hardy, I think if it were me I would skip the meds and just do a lot of water changes using Prime as the water conditioner, and hopefully the fungus will clear up.

 

I would get 2 sets of hospital tanks with air stones and an air pump. Set them up with fresh water side by side with air running so the temperature is the same, move the fish from one tab to the other every day. Sometimes this is called the ‘tub to tub.’ While the fish is in one tub, the other tub gets rinsed and filled with 100% new water, stands by till next day getting aerated and coming to the temperature. Adding Prime with the fish is good, and this method makes application of meds, if needed, easier and precise imo. Plain 10 gal tanks work perfect for this (my neighborhood Petco was running the $1 per gallon tank sale for a long while which couldn’t be beat, but I don’t know if they’re still doing it,) or any containers sturdy enough to hold 10 gal of water such as Rubbermaid tubs or garbage pails are fine. I just think this is good to have anyway as a goldfish keeper, and there’s no need to spend a lot of money on this. Let me know if you need more information on this.

If not, you can just keep changing the water in the exciting tank, match the water tempareture as close as possible. I would NOT add any meds to this small tank though. Hang in there!

 

I would get 2 sets of hospital tanks with air stones and an air pump. Set them up with fresh water side by side with air running so the temperature is the same, move the fish from one tab to the other every day. Sometimes this is called the ‘tub to tub.’ While the fish is in one tub, the other tub gets rinsed and filled with 100% new water, stands by till next day getting aerated and coming to the temperature. Adding Prime with the fish is good, and this method makes application of meds, if needed, easier and precise imo. ePlain 10 gal tanks work perfect for this (my neighborhood Petco was running the $1 per gallon tank sale for a long while which couldn’t be beat, but I don’t know if they’re still doing it,) or any containers sturdy enough to hold 10 gal of water such as Rubbermaid tubs or garbage pails are fine. I just think this is good to have anyway as a goldfish keeper, and there’s no need to spend a lot of money on this. Let me know if you need more information on this.

If not, you can just keep changing the water in the exciting tank, match the water tempareture as close as possible. I would NOT add any meds to this small tank though. Hang in there!

x2! The tub to tub sounds like a great method; I am a huge advocate of the rubbermaid hospitals (they've saved my butt a couple of times) and they're really easy to clean once you're through with them so that they are uncontaminated for the next time one of your fish is ill. Also easy to store and set up/break down.

Fungus in fairfish is unfortunately very common, ime. It's not just their poor water conditions and weakened immune systems, but also just the pure numbers of fish coming usually from several suppliers, and all of these suppliers are of course going to be the cheapest ones, not necessarily the ones that take the best care of their fish. It's like the CDC's worst nightmare in fish-form. Just be careful with your medication (keeping ++++O2 will help some), these guys are probably pretty weak right now, and some medications can be hard on them, even though they're in general a tough species.

Many people don't like it, but I've found Melafix (with goldfish) to be a great preventative of secondary bacterial infections, especially since it's such a mild antibiotic and it won't overwhelm your newly starting bacterial colonies, or harm their slime coat as I've seen some other harsher antibiotics do. Just be sure not to over-dose if you choose to use it.