Think my fish have a strain of mycobacteria/TB

SarahPar

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Hi all if anyone has any knowledge or experience id really appreciate it
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Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 130L
How long has the tank been running? 2 years
Does it have a filter? 800 Nautilis, Grech UV HOB, one circulation pump
Does it have a heater? 2 aquael ultra professional
What is the water temperature? 25 degrees C
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
3 mystery snails, 4 dwarf chain loach, 12 guppies, 3 congo tetras, 2 boesmani rainbow, 1 kutubu rainbow

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
Every few weeks
How much of the water do you change?
10-25%
What do you use to treat your water?
Seachem Prime, API stress coat+
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Both

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? API tests
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
pH: 6.5

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
Daily
How much do you feed your fish?
A few small scoops with mini spoon
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
New life spectrum, hikari
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods?
No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
Since birth, months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
Ever since the disease broke out like 5 months ago a percent of fish has been infected and died off
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Skinny, wasting, stop eating, lose some color, sulking, prolapse, maybe equilibrium issues, 1 got dropsy and died, stunted growth, clear poop
Have you started any treatment for the illness?
Many, none effective. Levamisole, flubendazole, prazi, general cure,
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
These ones, no.
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
Sulking, seem weaker, hang aroumd near bottom or at top

Explain your emergency situation in detail:
My guppy colony was off to a rough start initialy 2 years ago with a mass death of guppies after buying some that were seemingly infected after they settled in. Eventually things calmed down.

Until months ago when I had come back from overseas and did a full gravel vac. Thats when the issues started.
A few guppies die every month or 2. Skinny fish, wasting fish, clear poop, stopping eating, stop growing/look stunted if young, followed by death a few weeks later. Thats what most have in common. Some have equilibrium issuss and some recently get prolapse. They tend to sulk at bottom or at top. Iv started losing count of how many fish I have lost, I think it is at about 20 now (of fish that I had bred that were born, got infected and died). About 15 of fish from original wipe out.

My tank is 130L been set up for a few years, heavily planted.
I test ammonia, nitrate, nitrate. First two 0.
Ph about 6.5.
I split up the guppy colony between 3 tanks, two extra 70L that are cycled to try and fight the disease. I use a lower dose rift lake salt for the fish also.

Tried levamisole, praziquantel, metronidazole, flubendazole, general cure
Recently i am trying a course of metro incase it somehow is the hex/spiro protozoa but Im starting to doubt it.

I read in the Fish disease diagnosis and treatment that myco can be treated potentially with kanamycin and erythromycin, both I have. Should I just immediately start treating with that too? (At same time as the metroplex).
Or do you think its something else?
Maybe should try another round of levamisole and a gravel vac?
I'm getting desperate. Can't tell if I didn't do enough courses or if just it was inneffective as its tb.
 

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John58ford

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Have all the fish you have lost been guppies or have all species had loses? I'm thinking if it's the guppies only you have been on the right track chasing nematode/trematode/etc. I have found levamisole to be significantly more effective during black outs, the med is listed as light sensitive, I store mine in as bag, wrapped in foil. The dosing can be tricky too. Capillaria specifically has wrecked my guppies in the past, but most other fish that I keep can just pass the eggs asymptomaticaly and I don't even notice them pass then until I medicate. If that's not the case though, I really hope you have some luck with someone coming through with a diagnosis with you. I'll be watching and learning, good luck.
 
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SarahPar

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Thanks. In the beggining I had larger fish losses but in the recent outbreak only guppies. It seems if tbe larger fish have it they are strong enough to fight it but not the guppies
 

ponitboss

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Sounds like what's happening to me right now my guppies taking the hardest hit followed by my swordtails, I took a sample to my local pet store an it turns out to be internal and external bacterial infections as the guy said internal parasites dont really kill fish that fast, I treat the swords alone with metronidazole (human pills) dosed in the water as instructed for three days, yesterday was day three with nomore death and the white stringy poop stopped honestly the poop stopped after the second dose. So now I think the metronidazole work I'll start treating the guppies today but I'll put it in the food to save medication as metronidazole is a prescription drug here
 
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SarahPar

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ponitboss said:
Sounds like what's happening to me right now my guppies taking the hardest hit followed by my swordtails, I took a sample to my local pet store an it turns out to be internal and external bacterial infections as the guy said internal parasites dont really kill fish that fast, I treat the swords alone with metronidazole (human pills) dosed in the water as instructed for three days, yesterday was day three with nomore death and the white stringy poop stopped honestly the poop stopped after the second dose. So now I think the metronidazole work I'll start treating the guppies today but I'll put it in the food to save medication as metronidazole is a prescription drug here
Thanks did they say what bacteria tho?
Im treating with metronidazole now every 2 days
 

ponitboss

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SarahPar said:
Thanks did they say what bacteria tho?
Im treating with metronidazole now every 2 days
No they didn't but I used the metronidazole everyday with a 10% bottom siphon water change before treatment
 
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SarahPar

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ponitboss said:
No they didn't but I used the metronidazole everyday with a 10% bottom siphon water change before treatment
How did they come to that conclusion? Unless they used a microscope and stains etc it sounds more like they just guessed?
 

ponitboss

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SarahPar said:
How did they come to that conclusion? Unless they used a microscope and stains etc it sounds more like they just guessed?
Yes it's a guess but as he said it could only be a bacterial infest as it killed the fish fasttttt like 10 or more a day an parasites don't kill that fast, but if the metronidazole don't work for you try a septicemia treating like kanaplex or so because I also asked the fish vet Dr Loh and he said it sounds like septicemia but he cant say for sure without testing
 

ponitboss

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Here's a picture of how some of my fish look before they died, I have 6 different strain of guppies so even if I test 1 medication on some and it didnt work I have enough to do controlled testing of different meds of different tanks to see which works
 

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SarahPar

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ponitboss said:
Yes it's a guess but as he said it could only be a bacterial infest as it killed the fish fasttttt like 10 or more a day an parasites don't kill that fast, but if the metronidazole don't work for you try a septicemia treating like kanaplex or so because I also asked the fish vet Dr Loh and he said it sounds like septicemia but he cant say for sure without testing
Oh do no parasites kill that fast? I mean not spiro or hex or microsporidea like neon tetra disease?
I was recently reading about TB/mycobacteria, the article said that about 40% of fish out of 70 that died had it.
Maybe its a strain of mycobacteria?
I was going to get tests done by loh but the corpses kept getting destroyed before i could send them off and after any symptoms show they tend to just die. I wasn't able to find the preservative to send them off. Just multiple issues.

In the Fish disease diagnosis and treatment book it highlights kanamycin and erythromycin as a mycobacteria treatment. Tho Im doing preliminary treatment incase its somehow hex/spiro
 

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ponitboss

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SarahPar said:
Oh do no parasites kill that fast? I mean not spiro or hex or microsporidea like neon tetra disease?
I was recently reading about TB/mycobacteria, the article said that about 40% of fish out of 70 that died had it.
Maybe its a strain of mycobacteria?
I was going to get tests done by loh but the corpses kept getting destroyed before i could send them off and after any symptoms show they tend to just die. I wasn't able to find the preservative to send them off. Just multiple issues.

In the Fish disease diagnosis and treatment book it highlights kanamycin and erythromycin as a mycobacteria treatment. Tho Im doing preliminary treatment incase its somehow hex/spiro
You can send living ones to him I guess because more than likely all maybe infested, also the problem with my swordtails and guppies maybe completely different diseases hence why I'll treat one type with metronidazole before I treat the other just in case. If it dont work I'll do as loh said an use something for septicemia ( kanaplex or erythromycin) and may others that I saw online but I'll try the kanaplex first
 

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SarahPar said:
Hi all if anyone has any knowledge or experience id really appreciate it
:)
Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
Every few weeks
How much of the water do you change?
10-25%
What do you use to treat your water?
Seachem Prime, API stress coat+
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Both
It is very possible that there is a disease in your tank but the very first thing I would do is give them fresh clean water. 10-25% water changes every few weeks simply isn't enough. Even with good filtration your fish are swimming in their own waste.

You don't want to shock your fish by changing out too much water too quickly. Whatever is going on has happened slowly so you need to remedy it slowly. I highly recommend you build up to changing out no less than 50% of the water every week. Start with 10% today, 15% tomorrow, 20% the next day and continue in this manner until you are up to 50%. After that change out 50% every week and you may find that your fish will be much healthier.

Your numbers for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates looks good but there is more to water than just those 3 things. There are things that gradually build up in the water that we don't test for, They build up very slowly so fish seem fine for a while but it eventually reaches the point to where we start loosing fish. It reaches a point to where the fish can no longer fight off the diseases present in most fish. No amount of medication can save fish that are living in bad water.

I can't say exactly what these things are. Our tap water has minerals in it. Some are used up. Other are not and without removing them with water changes they gradually build up until they finally reach dangerous levels. These things are grouped together and are called Total Dissolved Solids. You can know for sure how high they are if you get a TDS meter.
 
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SarahPar

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mattgirl said:
It is very possible that there is a disease in your tank but the very first thing I would do is give them fresh clean water. 10-25% water changes every few weeks simply isn't enough. Even with good filtration your fish are swimming in their own waste.

You don't want to shock your fish by changing out too much water too quickly. Whatever is going on has happened slowly so you need to remedy it slowly. I highly recommend you build up to changing out no less than 50% of the water every week. Start with 10% today, 15% tomorrow, 20% the next day and continue in this manner until you are up to 50%. After that change out 50% every week and you may find that your fish will be much healthier.

Your numbers for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates looks good but there is more to water than just those 3 things. There are things that gradually build up in the water that we don't test for, They build up very slowly so fish seem fine for a while but it eventually reaches the point to where we start loosing fish. It reaches a point to where the fish can no longer fight off the diseases present in most fish. No amount of medication can save fish that are living in bad water.

I can't say exactly what these things are. Our tap water has minerals in it. Some are used up. Other are not and without removing them with water changes they gradually build up until they finally reach dangerous levels. These things are grouped together and are called Total Dissolved Solids. You can know for sure how high they are if you get a TDS meter.
Thanks thats true. Many water changes have been done in all these months, including moving the whole school to a different tank. The issue still persisted so it must be carried in some of the fish
 
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SarahPar

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Anyone know what this is? Keeps happening to the sick ones. Im not sure if its bacterial discharge or prolapse, kinda think its bacteria?
20200622_202917.jpg
20200622_202914.jpg
 

ponitboss

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Well as of today I seen one of my sickest fish in a tank sort of recovered it was just sitting at the top and shimming, now today its swimming an eating well just a slight shimmy now, I treated with 2 antibiotics in the food ( metronidazole and ciprofloxacin) so I'm treating all my guppies with the same food and seeing a decrease in the deaths. I guess ciprofloxacin alone might have worked but since the metronidazole worked on the swordtail I just added it also. Today is day 4 of the treatment I'm doing it for 10 days
 

ponitboss

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Guy at the store say use kanaplex but I'm thinking if guppies are worth so much spending money on this problem have been going on months and I spent lots of money so now i may just humanely get rid of all an bleach the tanks and filters but they are so much sigh, won't be keeping livebearers again if I do get rid of them
 
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SarahPar

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Hi All an update!
I have been consulting with a fish vet and he says that the most likely infection my fish has is either nematodes or mycobacteria. He suggested I worm them 3x using the levamisole I already have.
 

ponitboss

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SarahPar said:
Hi All an update!
I have been consulting with a fish vet and he says that the most likely infection my fish has is either nematodes or mycobacteria. He suggested I worm them 3x using the levamisole I already have.
Well keep me posted, I got rid of the guppies but just in case it nematodes I guess I should buy some levamisole and treat all my tanks.
 
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SarahPar

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ponitboss said:
Well keep me posted, I got rid of the guppies but just in case it nematodes I guess I should buy some levamisole and treat all my tanks.
Hey there I found out it definitely was not nenatodes.
How I know?
Recently I bought 2 new guppies that turbs out were heavily infested with nematodes.
When 1 died from the nematode I could see it in the gravel moving along.

So my suspicion as most likely cause for my fish issues is either spironucleas or microsporidean ie neon tetra like disease (due to the muscle wastinh nature). I did a long course of metronidazole treatment incase it was spiro, I think it improved or atleast potentially halted transmission. Hard to say. Ill keep an eye out though. I don't think its TB for 2 reasons, 1st, there was never any deep ulcers or lesions like in tb, 2nd most never developed any spinal deformity.
 

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