The skinny disease returns......help me!

Matt68046

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So i thought i had beaten a strange disease a long time ago. Well, in fact, i did. I had to move to an apartment, then our small house now, so i got rid of most of my fish supplies. But, being the kind hearted person i am, I kept the guppy fry after they seemed o.k. Now, 6 months later, those fry are mostly grown up, but once again, i am having problems. There is no bloat this time, which is good. Can cure the bloat thing. Now they just have the emanciapated bellies again. Im kicking myself. I should have just destroyed the 50 or so fry and completely gotten rid of everything. My guppies are in a bare bottom ten gallon with a cycled spoonge filter and a cheap preset heater that stays around 77ish.
At this stage in my hobby, i am just experimenting with diffrent things and trying to learn new things, especially (or almost exclusively) about diseases, because ever since i got out of the "noob" phase years ago, ive had nothing but rotten luck.
Their cadual tails are clamped and they are emanciapted "skinny" in the belly with a mortality here and there. Not all are affected but only one here and there. Ive thrown every med at them thinking its a parasite like HOITH or fulkes. Ive used:
Rid ick = Formalin +MG
Acriflavine + MG
Praziquentel
Metronidazole in food and in water, pure powder
Clout
Even a dewormer before when they were bloated

Now im starting to agree with junebug that it is in fact fish TB. Just confused because i dont see any open wounds, ever. And a few days ago i even stuck my hand in the water with cuts on my finger, because i didnt think until i observed them today that it was fish TB. But now.....i mean if it was a parsite, the darn thing would be dead by now! Any kind of parsite!
I help alot of people here to the best of my ability, please someone help me!
Edit:
They no longer have stringy feces. Have not since i used the acriflavin/MG a long time ago.
That leads me to believe that i actually had 2 seperate diseases going on awhile back. One, a parasite, and one, fish TB. Now they are just emanciapted and clamped, but otherwise eating and acting fine.
 
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Brynjar Konradsson

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Parasites can often require a total clensing. Dump the fry, let the tank stand for a few days. Start again and give them some soil and plants, aint no fish dead from some soil and plants, heck if it had gotten some nasty soil from start it had to figh, it migh have had a better chance against some parasites later? Bare bottom and tons of meds? That aint natural. One of the substrates functions is to keep those bacterias down there
 
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Matt68046

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Your right, its not natural. They should'nt have to be kept in hospital labratory type tanks and handed out meds just to be kept alive! Im about to give up on guppies. They just aren't as hardy as they use to be. Too much inbreeding. Im sure ill always have some kinds of guppies,maybe wild types, endlers or hybrids, but i am thinking about just getting rid of the fancies i got now and getting mollies. I have had no luck lately with guppies! I am going to just euthanize this tank, stearlize everything with bleach and start over if they dont get better soon.
 
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Matt68046

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You might consider treating them for a gram-negative bacteria aeronomas infection, with a sulfa(triple sulfa) or minocycline(maracyn-two). You could also use kanamycin but it will be less effective.
As a last ditch effort, i am treating them for bacteria. I am using oxytetracycline feed for at least 10 days, if no improvement is noted, their getting euthanized and im bleaching thier tank and starting over. Thats all i have on hand, and i cant afford anything else right now.
 

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Oxytetracycline is for gram-positive bacteria primarily. Though it is the first suggested treatment for columnaris, which is also gram-negative.

If they don't recover, I would suggest cleaning the tank out with rubbing alcohol in addition to bleach, to be sure to eradicate the bacteria.
 

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If it was a gram-positive the metro would have dealt with it, or at least seen some improvements, meaning it is very unlikely that you will see any improvement with the fish with oxytetracycline. While mycobacteria are much more common that we would think, infections are very rare, most being internal bacterial infection, scepticemia(bacterial not viral), and spinal defects(scoliosis). Understand that when dealing with diseases and medication, you should understand the differences between different bacteria, (aerobic or anaerobic, gram-positive or negative or neither, internal or external), this will help you determine which medication is best for a given situation. It will also save you from using two medications in the same class, since if the first had no effect, the second is unlikely as well. Like if your treating with kanamycin and it had no effect, then following it up with neomycin would be a waste of money.

To help you learn, this is a link to what I have found to be one of the best online sources describing different medications and what they are best used for. It is not the end all of sources, but it will greatly increase your knowledge base and help you make many informed decisions in the future.

Link removed as the domain seems to be autoblocked
 
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Matt68046

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Guys, im not a noob! I know the diffrence between gram positive and gram negative bacteria, and anerobic and aerobic.
I was gonna buy minocycline, but im kinda broke right now and i have the terramycin on hand.
And terramycin does work well for gram negative bacteria, i know because its saved many a fish of mine over the years.
So scarcasm, you don't think its mycrobacterium? I guess it could just be f.collunaris or aeromonas/pseudomonas, but their only symptom is clamping right now, and a couple were emancipated. A couple older females had some body fungus skin lesions, which is why im treating with the antibiotic now.
Im using the antibiotic food because its the only thing i havent thrown at them yet.
Besides, my water here is SOO hard, minocycline would just not work very well. The kanamycin would cost me 15 dollars, so food on the table for my family comes first. even before fish.
 

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I can understand your position about the food first.

Most fish keepers don't understand the different classes of bacteria, so informing you that the medication you were using would not be effective against the bacteria that I thought it was, doesn't make you a noob.

Fishlore is blocking the domain from being posted so if you want to link, you need to PM me.
 
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Matt68046

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Well, an update. Saw body fungus indicating typical columnaris on another, smaller female. So know i know what im dealing with. Today is day 2 of the medicated feed, so they should be O.K. Just never seen columnaris make a guppy "clamp" before. I wasn't meaning to be a jerk, but i thought you probably had read my other posts on this forum helping people with typical bacterial infections in their fish.

So what made you know that it wasnt fish TB?

I pride myself on knowing what meds and antibiotics to use, so i take some offense to the claims that terramycin is not a good drug to use. Its has been my go-to antibiotic throughout my fish hobby career.
Im not a believe in water dosed antibiotics, they just dont work in my hard water. If they made cheap kanamycin feed i would buy that too. I don't think they do. YES please PM me the link!
 

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Read my blog lol,
I have been unlucky enough to have to deal with mycobacteria and the very long treatment.
I went through a thousand(exaggerated, maybe) pages of research over the course of a couple weeks. I have had several discussions regarding it as well as many other disease that run similar with other breeders on different sites. Mycobacteria is frequently diagnosed when it is rarely the actual culprit. This is because that when the conditions are right for it to grow, it is also right for many other more aggressive and faster reproducing bacteria. It frankly gets out competed by other bacteria, like columnaris. Skinny belly and clamped fins, can be any number of things, but the lack of any of the fish developing the twisted "S" spine and "fungus". suggested otherwise. BTW, true fungus is uncommon as well. I haven't seen your other posts, lately I have little time for posts, in fact, I need to go right now.
 
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Matt68046

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Read my blog lol,
I have been unlucky enough to have to deal with mycobacteria and the very long treatment.
I went through a thousand(exaggerated, maybe) pages of research over the course of a couple weeks. I have had several discussions regarding it as well as many other disease that run similar with other breeders on different sites. Mycobacteria is frequently diagnosed when it is rarely the actual culprit. This is because that when the conditions are right for it to grow, it is also right for many other more aggressive and faster reproducing bacteria. It frankly gets out competed by other bacteria, like columnaris. Skinny belly and clamped fins, can be any number of things, but the lack of any of the fish developing the twisted "S" spine and "fungus". suggested otherwise. BTW, true fungus is uncommon as well. I haven't seen your other posts, lately I have little time for posts, in fact, I need to go right now.
Well sarcasm, if you really have a "blog" about fish bacterial infections, i'd love to read it! If you were just being sarcastic, well enough said then.
In fact, im beating back columnaris with my medication routine. Terramycin food 3x a day and Methylene blue pluse plenty of aquarium salt and PWC's. I caught it early on, but im still impressed that the medicated food is working this fast! So its cool i can probably save most of my guppies, even tho their just a mixed tank.
Im starting to realize that true "fungus" usually dosent set in unless theirs an open wound or bacterial infection present.
But if i can beat columnaris or whatever with this stuff in just a few days even at 82 degrees during the day, its worth while that other people be informed of how effective it is and how cheap and easy to use, and its lasts so long. So far so good and its only day 3 of my treatment and their already looking better. I think they had Gill Flukes or possibly Skin Flukes is what i treated the praziquintel/metronidazole before with them. Thats what weakened them to allow a infection to set in! phew they have been thru alot....tough life for these guppies.
 

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If you click the number 1 next to blog entries under my name to read about how to treat mycobacterium marinum.

Short of injections, feeding fish is the best way to deliver medication to fish.
 
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Matt68046

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Okay, i will read it sometime. I seem to be curing the columnaris with my Terramycin.....good stuff.
So mycrobacteria is not gram positive nor gram negative....i have heard the regular pennicillin type drugs are the way to go to treat it. Anyways i read i read. Seems like the type of disease that is not usually a problem because it gets out-cometed with other types of bacteria and also most fish have natural immunity to it.
 

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Technically, I believe mycobacteria is a gram negative, but my I might be wrong as my memory is not what I wish it was. It frequently gets looked over with the high lipid cellular wall becoming the chief concern.
 
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Matt68046

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I like using methylene blue along with my antiboitocs too. My guppies always get better and respond to Terramycin, Methylene blue, and tons of aquarium salt. In fact, im curing columnaris right now, and in a tank of like 25 adult guppies, only loosing 1 or 2 so far, with the rest looking healthy, thats quite a feat to accomplish!
 

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I am a huge proponent of meth blue as well, it helps in most treatments, if nothing else it encourages healing. I checked, I was wrong, mycobacteria is actually gram positive, not negative.
 
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Matt68046

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Ya coz i read where large doses of penicillin and other gram + type antibiotics rotated are the only cure. I euthanized a couple flat bellied females just in case that (TB) was the culprit.
The only problem with methylene is it absolutely stains everything and kill off BB. That being said it really is the most effective external anti-fungal/microbal on the market, plus helps improve red blood cells and oxygen sat in fish that have had gill damage or nitrite / low oxygen poisining. That last part im gonna have to google again because i cant remember exactly what it does but i know it helps the fish fight infection along with killing microbes and even some ick type parasites on their tail/body.
Edit: They make M. Blue in a powder form...yaay im gonna have to get some of that so my wife dosent have to keep throwing away my blue stained clothes.
 

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I am a huge proponent of meth blue as well, it helps in most treatments, if nothing else it encourages healing. I checked, I was wrong, mycobacteria is actually gram positive, not negative.
It's neither gram positive nor gram negative. It's anaerobic and zoonotic, however most treatment regimens using antibacterials for gram negative bacteria are more successful, even in humans.
 
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