The Prime Suspect: Does Prime really work - Page 3

Lucy

I've kind of lost track of this thread.

Am I understanding this correctly, no water changes are being done.
Just adding Prime to try and keep the levels safe.
 

oOBlueOo

I also think the goldfish tanks were getting water changes which would help prevent accumulation of Prime from happening. Maybe dosing every 48 hours as you suggest will help if that sounds ok to oOBlueOo and everyone else.

Sorry for the late reply.

I'm up for whatever you both agree too.

Lucy There's no water changes being performed yet. Not until the ammonia or nitrites reaches 2 ppm. A double dose of prime is added after every test session.
 

toosie

Sorry for the late reply.

I'm up for whatever you both agree too.

Lucy There's no water changes being performed yet. Not until the ammonia or nitrites reaches 2 ppm. A double dose of prime is added after every test session.

I guess I'm thinking a water change should be done, then maybe change the way you dose Prime, but I think the little guys deserve a little fresh water by now. Normally the ammonia would have built up enough that a water change would have been necessary, but that hasn't happened, and I don't really feel all that comfortable letting it go on without one.
 

oOBlueOo

K. I have to get some water, but I'll do the wc tomorrow.
Does 30% sound good?
 

toosie

K. I have to get some water, but I'll do the wc tomorrow.
Does 30% sound good?

It sounds good to me oOBlueOo, but I don't want to call the shots. It's just my opinion, but I'm only one person.
 

CindiL

I say go for a large one, nothings happened anyways that we can see as far as ammonia converting bacteria.

And yeah, you're right Toosie, the goldfish tanks were having 90% water changes probably twice a week.
 

toosie

I say go for a large one, nothings happened anyways that we can see as far as ammonia converting bacteria.

And yeah, you're right Toosie, the goldfish tanks were having 90% water changes probably twice a week.

I'm just wondering if a large water change might be too stressful on the fish? KH is different by 3 degrees from when the tank was setup which may not cause problems in itself but I wonder if a big change in whatever Prime has done, or it's concentration might be capable of affecting them. Your guess is as good as mine, because I don't know the answer but I wanted to throw it past you guys.
 

CindiL

Good point. Maybe 50% then?
 

toosie

Good point. Maybe 50% then?

Yeah, I think 50% would be safer, and maybe she can add the new water a little more slowly than she normally would, just to add an extra precaution if she can.
 

oOBlueOo

So we're doing a 50% wc. Do we want to do a deep sand cleaning? Filter squeeze?

I still have to get water. I didn't get to town yet because I was battling with my canister filter on my other tank.

I'm heading out right now, though.
 

toosie

So we're doing a 50% wc. Do we want to do a deep sand cleaning? Filter squeeze?

I still have to get water. I didn't get to town yet because I was battling with my canister filter on my other tank.

I'm heading out right now, though.

You're the best judge to determine if it needs to be done. If your filter is getting too dirty and the water flow is being affected, you could give it a bit of a rinse. Being as things have stalled, I don't think it will hurt anything by doing it.
 

oOBlueOo

Okay. I kinda want to take it apart anyway. Something's rattling and it's very annoying.
 

toosie

Okay. I kinda want to take it apart anyway. Something's rattling and it's very annoying.

It's a perfect time then.
 

oOBlueOo

Yep.
 

aylad

I'm thinking that Prime is slowing things down.

My idea is that the whole thing about "Prime detoxes ammonia for 24 hours but leaves it available for the biofilter" is misleading.

Everything below is pure conjecture.

I suspect that "detoxed" ammonia isn't actually able to be processed by the bacteria... or maybe it's just a lot harder and slower for the bacteria to metabolize it.

I suspect that Prime is actually effective for LESS than 24 hours, but as it starts wearing off, it does so gradually. In a cycled tank that has been treated for a small ammonia spike, the bacteria can process the ammonia as Prime slowly releases it again.

In an uncycled tank that is treated every 24 hours on the dot, the bacterial colony slowly builds up during the lag time between yesterday's dose wearing off and today's dose being added.

In an uncycled tank that is treated more frequently, resulting in less (or no) lag time, the bacteria might never develop.

I'm getting more interested in seeing this tested. If only I had time during the school year to set up an experiment...
 

oOBlueOo

I agree, actually.

What I want to do is only do a normal dose of 0.5 mL every 48 hours instead of 1 mL every 24 hours.

I think it's causing more harm than good to dose so much everyday, because in my opinion, the prime builds up over time.

I also suspect that this is stressful on the fish. After a 50% water change, the fish were stressed. I don't believe it was from the small change in water parameters, but the change in the prime ratio in the tank. I think adding it constantly everyday is making the fish become dependent on it. And then when it's removed through a wc, the fish systems panic because they've become sort of addicted.


That's just my opinion.
 

toosie

I agree with both of you, and aylad, I've speculated the same as you, I also suspect that if Prime isn't overdosed the reactions with chlorine/chloramine, ammonia, etc. are instantaneous and Prime's capacity to bind ammonia is limited. While a single dose can "detoxify" up to 1ppm of ammonia, any ammonia that is created after the reaction has taken place, is not locked up and is free for the bacteria to use. In other words, there would be little or no residual affect. If Prime is overdosed, maybe Prime remains available to continue to lock up ammonia.

Maybe this is partly why it can help protect against nitrites. If overdosed like they recommend doing when nitrites are present, it locks up the ammonia, and continues to lock up ammonia as it's being produced, preventing nitrites from continuing to be produced and climbing. That would give the bacteria that oxidize nitrites to nitrates time to work on and lower the nitrite level before the Prime wears off and starts to release the ammonia again, allowing nitrites to be produced again.

Due to different threads I've seen over the years, I have suspected Prime can slow down a cycle. Being as Seachem claims the ammonia remains in a form still usable by bacteria, I too thought it maybe just had to work harder to use that form of ammonia, and maybe that is part of it, but what's happened in oOBlueOo's tank would indicate to me that the bacteria is having problems using the ammonia at all, with the amount of Prime that was used, so I do find this all pretty interesting.

I admit, I'm a Prime skeptic. It's not that I don't believe any of their claims, but I have and do question a number of them.

oOBlueOo , yeah, I'm not 100% sure why your fish got stress. The change in parameters may have played a part but scary thought... Prime dependent fish. Maybe there are more explanations for that as well. I'm not totally sure ALL of the things Prime can react with, so maybe it made a bond with a mineral of some sort or something in the water that the fish were adjusting to being without, or in the altered state, and when new water was introduced, the content of this "thing" was so different that the fish had a hard time adjusting to it. You're theory is as good as this one being as they are both difficult to test, and there are probably other explanations out there as well. It may have been a combination of things too.
 

oOBlueOo

Hey guys I'd like to apologize. If you look at post number 1, my record keeping is missing an entry for last night.

I'm sorry to say that I fell asleep and didn't do any tests last night. In the future, I'll get them done as soon as I get home from work to ensure that they are performed everyday. Luckily, it was a "skip the prime" day, so everything should be fine.
 

Angelbear

hey. This is the first time I am posting but I have been lurking. Reading this also makes me wonder about the validity of other similar products to prime that claim the same thing with detoxification of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. It would be interesting to see some cross comparison experiments with these products as well and see if the results may in fact be the same.

Kordon's Amquel + is another such brand off the too of my head.
 

oOBlueOo

We now have nitrites. The nitrates also jumped up.
 

CindiL

woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



So it seems like doing Prime (normal dose?) every 48 hours has allowed the cycle to continue?
 

oOBlueOo

Not sure what to think of the nitrates though. It increased a lot. I think I may have to do another wc tomorrow. Or do you think I should leave it now that we have nitrites?

Edit: seems so. About the prime I mean. Could be coincidence too.
 

oOBlueOo

cmclien toosie

What do you think of that hiding guppy? Stress? Or just a guppy quirk? She sticks herself in the rock pile at random times but comes out and schools with the rest of the guppies. I personally think it's stress from the parameter values.

I'm thinking of doing a 25% wc tomorrow to combat the nitrates. But then that would lower the ammonia and nitrite.

But that would possibly make the guppy feel better.
 

toosie

It's hard to say. Was Prime cut back too much maybe now that there's nitrites? It's about a week now since the water change. A small one probably won't hurt. I don't think the levels are going to go as high as the original plan was for so a small decrease in ammonia and nitrites from a water change probably won't make or break anything.
 

oOBlueOo

I could also maybe change the prime dose too, now that the cycle started. But I agree. I don't think the ammonia and nitrites are going to be allowed to get as high as previously agreed upon.
 

CindiL

Hi. Though I'm wondering if the others seem fine maybe it's just her? But whatever you feel comfortable with as it has been a week and I would expect a person through cycling to be doing some water changes.
 

oOBlueOo

Ok. Since the old plan isn't going to work, I've come up with a new one.

25% wc every week.

1 mL prime every 48 hours. (Current dose is 0.5mL every 48 hours)

Since I'll be doing wwc, I don't think we have to worry about prime building up. I think...or do we want to to 0.5 every day?

Everyone who's reading this, what are your opinions?
 

toosie

I'm not sure which dosage is best. In the email Seachem sent to cmclien earlier, they seemed to indicate using larger doses at 48 hour intervals would be better than daily small ones, so I'd probably go with your plan A. If nitrites do climb more, then you might have to use even more Prime.
 

CindiL

^^ I agree
 

oOBlueOo

Ok. We can always change it if needed.

On a side note, no guppies are hiding since I did the water change.
 

oOBlueOo

So the ammonia is going down and the nitrites are going up. Next scheduled wc isn't til Tuesday.
 

toosie

Have you increased the Prime dosage?
 

oOBlueOo

1 mL every other day
 

toosie

I wonder if now the nitrites are pretty high if maybe the 5x dose Seachem recommends should be used every 48 hours?
 

CindiL

Wow, you're finally in the higher nitrite phase, I bet you're cycle will be done within a week.

I agree to do more Prime. I would think at least double for 2.0 nitrites. Maybe 1ml every 48 hours for each 1.0 rise in nitrites? I don't know just thinking out loud.


 

oOBlueOo

So 5x would be 2.5 mL/ 48 hours if I calculated correctly.

Do we all agree on that?

Do we still want to keep the water change schedule of every Tuesday? I was actually hoping to do the wc a day early on Monday. Or maybe later tonight. I can't right now because I have somewhere to be soon.
 

toosie

Your calculations are correct. I guess I would go the 5x dose, because I wouldn't want to see the little guys get brown blood disease, so we do want Prime to be able to work, and it wouldn't be fair to say that Prime doesn't protect if the dosage recommended by Seachem isn't used.
 

oOBlueOo

Um...yikes. Definitely doing a wc tomorrow. I can't even compare the nitrite amount on the chart. All I can tell is that it's more than 2ppm.

I hope you all don't mind, but I went ahead and did a 5x prime dosage tonight, even though I did a double dose yesterday.
 

oOBlueOo

I forgot again. Even though I said I wouldn't.
 

CindiL

Kinda seems like you are getting close to being cycled....
I bet within a week
 

oOBlueOo

I hope so.

I'm still undecided about stocking. My lfs guy is sick right now, so I don't want to bother him. I just left him a note with the lady who's filling in.
 

oOBlueOo

And we're done.

Total time: 48 days

Fish lost: 0
 

toosie

Good job oOBlueOo! Congratulations!!
 

oOBlueOo

Thanks! Now I get to transfer it all over and work on my 10 gallon.
 

CindiL

And we're done.

Total time: 48 days

Fish lost: 0

Haven't been on in a few days so yay, way to go!
What conclusions would you make regarding Prime in regards to what your cycle period went through?



 

oOBlueOo

I probably should write a report on that. But the shorthand is that prime stalls the cycle when used too much.
 

CindiL

I probably should write a report on that. But the shorthand is that prime stalls the cycle when used too much.

But otherwise did in fact seem to protect the fish right?
Can you post again what amount or ratio of prime seemed to be right in letting the cycle continue on while keeping the fish safe?
 

oOBlueOo

But otherwise did in fact seem to protect the fish right?
Can you post again what amount or ratio of prime seemed to be right in letting the cycle continue on while keeping the fish safe?




It was a double dose every other day. I started doing wwc towards the last few weeks. I think that combo pretty much worked.

In extreme cases, I used the 5x dose. It seemed to stall the cycle and become addictive for the fish. I didn't do any wwc at the time, so the fish became stressed when I finally did do a wc.

Bottom line: I'd say keep the ammonia and nitrite below 3 ppm, dose every other day with a double dose of prime, and to wwc of 50%.
 

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