The moral thing to do

So I wanted to bring up a issue that I see, and I don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't want this to turn into a debate. I was speaking with a well respected fish keeper of more then 20 years, and over 100 cichlid tanks. This individual is close friends with the Ad Konings one of the most respected cichlid keepers ever, as well as they go to africa to lake malawI every year. ( ). This is a issue I am seeing more and more of is cichlid hybrids. As a responsible fish keeper it is our job to keep pure strains of fish going for future generations. Some cichlids are next to extinct, and others are getting a lot harder to get from other countrys. When we decide to to setup a cichlid tank that is mixed with yellow labs, acei, kenyi, demanosi, what have you, this should be kept as a display tank. Alot of us see our fish holding in a community tank, and think I'm going to raise these, and sell the fry, but this is wrong let me explain. If your going to raise and sell fry, it is our responsibility to keep species only tanks. Here is why! All mouth brooders have the potential to interbreed. So for an example were going to use yellow labs and aceI mixed in a tank. You have a female yellow lab laying eggs, and a dominant male aceI comes along and fertilizes them, and the female yellow lab comes along and picks them up, we now have a hybrid. This is not always easy to see and sometimes does not show up until 2 or 3 generations down the road. The other issue is sperm migrations. Alot of us are using powerheads, and extra filters to keep detrius off the bottom of our tanks. This poses a problem when you have more then one species breeding at the same time. Due to water ciruculation, sperm can migrate when realeased, and once again we have created unpure genes. So some of you may take this with a grain of salt, and others will not. But as a fishkeeper we need to keep in the mind the responsible and consiensous decisons we make, to keep hybrids out, and keep the fish lines pure. Look at all the mixed african cichlid tanks out there at lfs, you have no clue what your buying. This is a subject that has bothered me for a long time, after I spent months and months researching cichlids, and speaking to well known and respected members in the hobby. Once again many of you have been rasing and selling fry, I'm not here to put you down I just wanted to point out my opionon on the matter.

 

Valid points, Wing.

I'm not sure if the species only tank is the only feasible way of handling it, though.

From what I understand through my own research, males will only breed with females of another species if no females of their own species are available.

Also-are you 100% sure that ALL mouthbrooders can interbreed? I thought it was only fish of the same genus in regards to africans.

 

Well bolivian this is what I thought, but males will breed with other females in a mixed tank. Does it happen all the time no, but the males will breed with females that are available in the tank. we can cut down on the chances by having only 1 species of say pseudotrophus, you would not want acei, saulosI in the same tank.

 

Well bolivian this is what I thought, but males will breed with other females in a mixed tank. Does it happen all the time no, but the males will breed with females that are available in the tank. we can cut down on the chances by having only 1 species of say pseudotrophus, you would not want acei, saulosI in the same tank.

Okay, I think I understand where you're coming from now.

You're saying only keep one species of pseudotropheus, one species of
melanochromis, etc together in the same tank, but not only one species in the entire tank. Am I right?

 

Well if your keeping the fish for your enjoyment as a display tank, what your saying above is correct. Now if you decide you want to raise and sell fry, then what I am saying for example is having a 55 gallon tank setup with only one species, such as pseudotropheus, melanchomis etc.

 

I think you are asking a bit much. Some people like hybrids. What makes it such a horrible thing exactly? If deformities and mass die-offs are attributed to hybridizing a certain pair, then I can understand why it would be fruitless.

If you hybridize (using your example) a lab and an acei, what exactly is wrong with that and how does it hurt the original species of each fish? Just looking for further clarification, because honestly these threads seem more like moral imposition rather than moral collaboration.

 

I don't think it is immoral to hybridize fish. It may not be your cup of tea, but it is not immoral. And as long as the fry are sold as hybrids and not purebreds I see no problem with them. I do agree that with certain species it is better to breed pure do to rarity both in aquariums and in the wild. Endlers are a good example. I would rather people keep endlers pure becausr I would like some pure endlers and they are near extinct in the wild, but I don't think it is immoral to breed them with guppies, just unwise.

 

So I wanted to bring up a issue that I see, and I don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't want this to turn into a debate.

Your opinions are valid. As I am not really into breeding cichlids, I have little to say on the subject, aside from, "I tend to err on the side of keeping pure lines, largely out of personal preference". However, you can't start a thread talking about morality, especially one which is divided like this, and think that it isn't going to turn into a debate. ;D

 

Wing, you brought up some very valid points and I agree that if you're breeding to sell, you had better be sure that the fish is 100% pure what you claim it to be.

Jetajockey, I think that the point you're missing is if you want to buy a mutt (ok hybrid), then fine, you wouldn't care if the line is pure.

However if you think you're buying a purebred to breed and it turns out not to be, you have every reason to be upset.
From that spawn, none of the off spring are pure, and so on and so on.....

If you're breeding and selling and you claim something to be a certain species, you had better be sure that's exactly what you have.

Ps. I know nothing about cichlids. lol

 

Lucy You Said It All Thanks!

 

I agree selling a hybrid as a purebred is immoral, but not because the fish is a hybrid. Its immoral because you are lying about your product.

 

Wing, you brought up some very valid points and I agree that if you're breeding to sell, you had better be sure that the fish is 100% pure what you claim it to be.

Jetajockey, I think that the point you're missing is if you want to buy a mutt (ok hybrid), then fine, you wouldn't care if the line is pure.

However if you think you're buying a purebred to breed and it turns out not to be, you have every reason to be upset.
From that spawn, none of the off spring are pure, and so on and so on.....

If you're breeding and selling and you claim something to be a certain species, you had better be sure that's exactly what you have.

Ps. I know nothing about cichlids. lol

That's fair Lucy. But by saying that, you are going against a certain practice all because of a potential for someone to make bad business deals. The kind of person that would do this knowingly would do it with a lot more than hybrid fish.

I'm going under assumption that a breeder is knowledgeable about what he is selling. And in the case that the breeder is ignorant of his stock, believe that he will get corrected quickly, because people do not happily pay for a fish that they don't want.

There is no great benefit to making hybrids over purebreds, and its obviously better business practice to keep lines as pure as possible. That is on several levels, not just ethical, but also economics. A very pure line bred fish is going to be much higher quality and worth much more than a hybrid. Also, creating hybrids (in general) is not simple, if anything it makes the whole process more difficult because the offspring often don't survive. It just makes no sense for someone to do this and fit it into shoddy business practices.

If I bought a purebred fish for breeding, and it turns out it wasn't, I would be going after the person who sold it to me. Obviously with internet sales this can make things complicated, but with enough precautions this stuff doesn't happen very often, using trusted sources and whatnot.

So all in all, the issue is with the breeder/seller who is selling their stock under false pretenses, and possibly a buyer who hasn't done their homework. With the internet, we really have no excuse not to really study up on what we are getting into, especially if its a big purchase, or for something as important as a breeding colony.

Finally, about hybridization, the resulting offspring don't typically look remotely close to their parents, at least not in the sense where someone would be confused about whether they were purebred or not. This isn't like mixing a longfin/shortfin or balloon/standard group, this is totally different species mixing it up.

If you go to the endlers-usa site, they break down what exactly classifies a fish as an endler, and then further goes onto classification ratings. You can identify a pure endler based on several of its features.

N class is one that can be traced back to the wild. These are the kind that everyone wants, because they are 'proven' pure. However, apart from getting your fish directly from someone like adrianhd or someone else that has actually been there and harvested them, you are basically just trusting someone's word on it.

Fish don't come with papers, at least as far as I know.

I understand both sides of the story here, I really want to keep certain breeds pure in the sense that I would cull any 'balloon' fry.

If someone wants to breed two species together, spawn them, rear viable fry, grow them out, then stick them in a selling tank as hybrids, then I say let them do it.

I don't have any plans to ever hybridize any fish, as it makes no sense to make a bunch of fish that no one wants, but I don't feel any personal conviction that it's my civic duty to abhor or preach against it either.

OK I'll pass the soapbox now lol

 

I think the most important thing is when you are selling a fish to make sure you state if it a hybrid or not! Or a potential hybrid!

African cichlids can interbreed but only pseudotropheus to pseudotropheus, melanochromis to melanochromis etc....

If we only keep one species from each group they cannot interbreed.

When we bred africans we had pseudotropheus polits, labs, and cynatalapia afra's in the same tank.

On the other hand if no one kept a mixed tank we would never have bloody parrots or jelly bean cichlids!

Just my :

Anna

 

On the other hand if no one kept a mixed tank we would never have bloody parrots or jelly bean cichlids!

Just my :

Anna

Some people would say that would have been a good thing. Personally, I like hybrids. I find them fun and interesting.

 

Annadvn I would have to respectfully disagree pseudotropheus can interbreed with labidochromis for example, saying that pseudo can only breed with pseudo is a common missconception.

 

My 2 cents worth (and not relating to just fish). I can understand how - if someone want to breed a certain (or other animal) because it is becoming harder to find in the wild, then a species only tank would be a good idea - to guarantee the purity of the line. I wish more people had done that with green singing finches. They are extremely difficult to find now because they can no longer be exported from their country of origin. Very few people tried to breed them so there are very few viable breeding stock left in this country. (They interbred with canaries and with society finches). In general, hybridization is how "new" species come about. After all, look at dogs. They have been "hybridized" and refined over the (doggie) generations to end up with the variety we now have. Who's to say that by crossing certain types of fish, we might not come up with a peaceful pirahna? or an orange black ghost knife fish? As long as there are some out there that make sure that the original strains of all these fish have a chance to stick around too.