The Han’s Experience!

angelcraze

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So sorry this is happening. A reminder of how Sensitive discus can be. Idk, I can't see a parasite coming in with the fish from Hans if he's serious about keeping and breeding discus which he must be!

Just a thought....Do you think any of the discus ate the pothos roots? No leaves have access to water?
This is a long shot, but pothos leaves are poisonous to dogs and cats. I've known cichlids to eat the roots with no harm, but......just pop in my head. In other words, I don't think this was it, but worth consideration.

You changed the top? What did you do with the old one? What did you make it out of? Acrylic worked ok for me and regular fish, the only issue was the acylic bowed with the heat from the bulb.

I'm glad the others are doing well.

This is the big problem with discus. They look strong but it doesn’t take much to knock them out. Best bet is the pothos had something on it. Bug spray or office cleaning spray on it. So a water change should be done (if not done already). Next it could be the fish. This is the hard thing to follow. Was it eating? Once they move away from the group there is something up. I also have one with a problem. One of Hans fish isn’t eating. It runs to the food but spits it out as soon as it eats it. I’ve seen it by itself but it’s also out with the other fish. I’ve tried different foods but all get the same reaction. So hard to guess what’s up.
Have you read how Hans does things? One thing that caught my eye was he says weekly water changes and use cold tap water. He says his fish are strong enough to handle even German tap water. Remember all our fish come from Germany. Hans is a distributor. Now I understand his reasoning. Cold water is cleaner. Once you add hot water out of your hot water heater there are other things in the water copper and other metals from the pipes. But doing a 50% water change with cold water would drop the temp in the tank drastically. He also recommends 25% wc. Not really sure what’s the best way here. Me when I change the water I have it a little colder than the tank water and try not to lower the temp by more than 2 degrees. Something from years ago where the colder water helps the fishes immunity system. Ok I’m going off here. Hope that’s the only bump in the road for you.
I age my water (it warms up to room temp), then boil a portion of it in a pot on the stove and add enogh boiling water to bring WC water just below tank temp.
 
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coralbandit

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I would be feeding other foods besides flake.. I really don't think it easy to grow and fill fish up on flake ..I moved away from flake years ago and even with Tropical flakes for discus I think my Kens black worm flakes are preferred by the fish ?
My 10 of which the two checkboards are still sketch eat like 3 cubes of freeze dried black worms at every feeding then I throw in crumbles and flake which does get cleaned up ..
What is your water hardness ? Do you test TDS ???
My water changes come through water heater and I have never had issue nor has it raised my TDS 1 point from cold .. It may actually offer lower TDS water as the minerals remain in the hot water tank and on the element thus being removed from the water [YES ???] ..
Neither my rams or the discus need cool water to spawn so I will never be giving them anything but warmed water … I have been cutting my water with ro but considering for how much longer ?
 

86 ssinit

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Thanks coral good info. Not sure now if I’m feeding enough now. 3 cubes is a lot of worms. I bought loose and throw a pinch in about 5-6 times a day and some flake or other foods about 3 times. Make sure they eat it all and stop. Like I said I have one a little off but eating every now and than.
The cold water thing is from Hans thats his recommendations for his fish. Did you get his fact sheet?
 

coralbandit

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No no fact sheet since they came from my LFS .. Cool water makes no sense to me ? Maybe I should watch the video but I don't think I want to subscribe to a different plan for someone else methods .Got no reason to fix or change what is not broken ..Common sense says fish that like 86+ don't need or want cold water ...
They eat 3 cubes at every feeding ! I cut them in half and stick 2 at a time to glass and hold another ! They take mouth fulls !
Just moments ago one of the checkerboards ate from my hand but not on the glass ??
 
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Thedudeiam94

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I have frozen beef heart cubes, frozen brine shrimp cubes (which I just got today) frozen blood worm cubes, and freeze dried black worm cubes with spinich. But if I use a whole cube for just 4 discus I feel there would be a lot of left overs and idk if I should feed the frozen blood worm cubes...? You guys do and don’t seem to have any problems? And I change my water every other day already and I feel like the tank floor would be three times as messy feeding all those different foods. I’ve done the fdbw w/spinich and one beef heart (which was messy even with 5 discus) had to vac immediately after. Just gave them some of the brine today.
 

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Aww Dude... I'm so very sorry to hear of the troubles.

I know nothing of Discus and you've definitely got your crew to offer the best advice on those beauties. I'm here to talk about making the average plant safe for sensitive life.

I have a gecko and the bioactive terrarium little Pan lives in under my care. And... I like cheap plants and live in the tropics where 'houseplants' live outside. This means I don't want to pay the price for guaranteed safe plants from online dealers when those very same plants are sold at the many, many nurseries near me. The trouble is, idk what kind of dangerous ferts, pesticides, and fungicides may have been used on the plants.

So, before a plant goes into our terrarium, it is unpotted and washed very well to clean the plant (foliage and roots) and rid it of the 'dirt'/medium it came in. It is then potted in my own medium (clear of any slow-release ferts or the residuals of toxins.) Then, the plant is simply watered and grown for a few weeks, which (hopefully) rids it of any toxins the plant itself may carry.

You may be aware, but in case you aren't... lots of nurseries (where houseplants, office plants, hardware store plants... all potted plant originate) will protect their bottom line by using systemic pesticides and fungicides on plants to aid in guaranteeing their health until they are sold. Systemic means that the plants take up these nasties into their tissue so can then protect themselves to an extent without very frequent treatments.

So, the point of growing in clean medium with water and light alone for a few weeks is to help rid the plant of any systemic dangers it acquired before coming home with me. Idk what to call it, but Pothos in particular... well, it weeps I guess. Surely there is a proper name for this but every morning, whether the plants were watered yesterday or not (I'm talking about three potted Pothos out on my covered porch), the plants have water droplets on the leaves. This is fluid that has actually come from the plant, so could it be also releasing the ferts I use (or in another case, any toxins [like air freshener or office cleaners] the plant has been exposed to)? I'd worry that it could.

Anyway, just wanted to share my little way of 'quarantining' plants before exposing them to our little buddy. It doesn't seem very likely that the Pothos is the culprit because you aren't seeing symptoms in all the fish. Again though... don't take Discus advice from me. However, I hope that some who'd like to pair gorgeous non-aquatic plants with our beloved sensitive pets might find this useful.
 

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:emoji_thumbsup:Thanks!

This is what I have been reading... maybe it will help.
https://plymouthdiscus.com/discus-health/
So much info, but not sure about the salt and dewormer,
"ORP" levels never heard of it need to do more research?

Cool water makes no sense to me ?
Agree, All the research I have done it is always recommended to use aged water at or within a degree or 2 of the main tank. I am on city water which is from Lake Erie and gets treated, especially in the summer you can actually smell the chlorine at the tap.

In my 45g aging container. I have a heater, powerhead and airstone. I age the water for a minimum of 48 hours and use Safe for the treatment. During tank maintenance I wipe down the glass and hardware, vacuum the bottom, and fill from the aging container and add enough Safe during the refill for the tank capacity. So far so good.

My feeding regimen:
They are fed at 10am, 2pm, 7pm and sometimes 12am. They get 1 cube of FDBW with spinach cut in 4 and soaked for 10 mins. I also include one of the following frozen Mysis shrimp, Brine shrimp, Discus pellets or bloodworm pellets. I do have 6x EBA juveniles with them so I also add a pinch or so of 2 smaller sizes of pellets/crumbles (similar to Bug Bites).
I just started trying frozen Beefheart cubes, but only twice a week.
Most everything gone within10 minutes. Anything leftover is usually gone within another 15 mins.

My only concern right now is the runt of the litter. It's eating and does swim with the pack but still gets chased by the others. Its kinda of a loner most times. Still debating on moving it with 1 of the other smallish ones to another tank by themselves.

Not sure any of this helps, but just my .02.

:emoji_thumbsup:Thanks for the reminder/info.
just wanted to share my little way of 'quarantining' plants before exposing them to our little buddy.
After reading all the mishaps and getting some MTS.
Everything gets Quarantined before going in any tanks with my fish.

Good Luck on finding and fixing the issue.
 
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Thedudeiam94

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:emoji_thumbsup:Thanks!



So much info, but not sure about the salt and dewormer,
"ORP" levels never heard of it need to do more research?


Agree, All the research I have done it is always recommended to use aged water at or within a degree or 2 of the main tank. I am on city water which is from Lake Erie and gets treated, especially in the summer you can actually smell the chlorine at the tap.

In my 45g aging container. I have a heater, powerhead and airstone. I age the water for a minimum of 48 hours and use Safe for the treatment. During tank maintenance I wipe down the glass and hardware, vacuum the bottom, and fill from the aging container and add enough Safe during the refill for the tank capacity. So far so good.

My feeding regimen:
They are fed at 10am, 2pm, 7pm and sometimes 12am. They get 1 cube of FDBW with spinach cut in 4 and soaked for 10 mins. I also include one of the following frozen Mysis shrimp, Brine shrimp, Discus pellets or bloodworm pellets. I do have 6x EBA juveniles with them so I also add a pinch or so of 2 smaller sizes of pellets/crumbles (similar to Bug Bites).
I just started trying frozen Beefheart cubes, but only twice a week.
Most everything gone within10 minutes. Anything leftover is usually gone within another 15 mins.

My only concern right now is the runt of the litter. It's eating and does swim with the pack but still gets chased by the others. Its kinda of a loner most times. Still debating on moving it with 1 of the other smallish ones to another tank by themselves.

Not sure any of this helps, but just my .02.

:emoji_thumbsup:Thanks for the reminder/info.


After reading all the mishaps and getting some MTS.
Everything gets Quarantined before going in any tanks with my fish.

Good Luck on finding and fixing the issue.
Here is the simplest explanation of ORP I could find. However it is mostly only important in saltwater tanks. But even then I’ve read where some say it’s not that important to worry about. https://images.app.goo.gl/JpZEydN2Fzn2A7iU6
 

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The potassium should be something you all learn about and become comfortable with using ..
Nothing else comes close as a treatment IMO .
100% ALL AGAINST ANY SALT WITH ANY FRESHWATER FISH .. Never not going to use any in my fish room ..
If that is recommended by the same who said cold water which really should be much more clearly defined then I say nay to both ,Not happening never for me .
I did not spend the money I did [really store credit but no joke ] on discus to start to question how I keep fish and my methods ...How I do it is NOTHING like that !..Seriously say NO TO SALT ...It would and still will never find its way into the discus natural environment ..It is a chemical irritant to term it nicely ..I like salt on my food ,tell me how good that is !!! I like lots !
On the redox /OPR hate to say learn about TDS ! The measurement of solids sure does have some impact on electroconductivity ..There are fresh water ways to compare precision measurements ..Again Ozone used in protein skimmers or in reactors can raise your OPR..Without Adding ozone most have little control over OPR..
 

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I would consider the PP dip treatment for something urgent, i.e. visible lack of eating etc. You can see it done here:
by what looks to me like an experienced discus breeder, or at least there are 2½ years of documented breeding on his Youtube channel.

Note that he uses a very strong concentration of 16.9 ppm for the dip versus 2 ppm for a 4 hour bath, so it will be absolutely necessary to time it carefully to 3 mins maximum to avoid gill damage and other damage on the fish.

Going forward I would then start considering Coralbandit's recommendation around the PP bath in your WC procedure, if not every time then something like weekly. This is what I have now done for the last 2 weeks so still early days to document any difference but I clearly expect to see less illness and death going forward.
 
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jmaldo

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:emoji_thumbsup:
The potassium should be something you all learn about and become comfortable with using ..
Always learning. I need to buckle down and give the PP a go. I was thinking of doing my first on the Hatchetfish QT tank and see how it goes. They are in a 10g with a piece of driftwood, sponge filter, heater and a Eheim 2211. I am thinking with all of the hardware and such the actual water volume is about 8-9 gals. Still not sure of the math?
@coralbandit can you help with the dose amount?
 

fa4960

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So 2 ppm is considered safe for a 4 hour bath but let's assume you want to be safe and start with 1 ppm.

9 US Gal is app. 34 Liters so you will need 0.034g PP to reach 1 ppm and of course double the amount if you go for 2 ppm. I have a "standard" formula that I use for fertiliser calculation as it is the same principle, just simpler. Let me see if i can simplify the formula later.

Formula should look like this:

PP calculation.png


Just multiply your target ppm (2) with Gallons of water in the tank (10), then multiply with 3.8 to get to liters and finally multiply by 0.001 to convert from milligram to gram PP needed.

Take the 0.076g and dissolve them in a small amount of water (e.g. a glass of water) before adding the dissolved PP to the tank.
 
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86 ssinit

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fa4960 great info and thank you for breaking it down for us. Now how do I measure .076g? What do I need to make this measurement? Thanks again.
 

fa4960

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A scale that measures in 0.01 gram intervals is handy. I use one for fertilizers so easy for me. The alternative which I think Coralbandit prefers is to make a solution and then add what you need similar to fertilizer solutions.

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/using-potassium-permanganate.397208/

Here is the mixing part from his post but please read / re-read it before you embark on this.

"You can math this out how you want but to get your stock solution you mix 75 grams of the powder with 1,000 ml water. If you have purified water [RO] use it . As I said you can math down however you want 1,000 ml is more then a pond keeper will need. So 7.5 grams to 100ml is fine also .
Once you have that mix ratio made you need 2 drops of the solution per gallon of aquarium to acheive the 2ppm treatment level. 1 drop per gallon equals 1ppm .EASY MATH ."
 
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Thedudeiam94

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So in 65 gallons I need 0.494 of pp dissolved and added to my tank to get 2 ppm for an entire tank treatment? And how long does this last? And how long until you do a water change?

I had removed carbon and dosed prazipro on Monday after doing a water change on Sunday. So I plan to let this subside until I try anything else. I appreciate all the helpful information!! I’m considering getting more Hans discus before mine grow too large. Hans said it would have been better with ten and there would have been minimal bullying/stress.

Also I just want more! Lol which I intend to make sure these are healthy first before doing so!
 
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86 ssinit

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Ok I’m going to be the first one to say it... I’m not that impressed with Hans Discus. I think jmaldos Denis discus and my lfs discus actually have better body shape. I have 4 pigeon types that are all pink in color?? Not red. Why? Also some do look like they have bigger eyes. Stunted?? And with the blue guy eating irregular I’m just not impressed. No problems at all with lfs Discus. The dirty pigeons have more red in them and a better less football type body .
9DCAE85C-8E4B-402B-8612-02F2706171BC.jpeg
2A4B072E-D31E-44C5-827A-6130969E9341.jpeg

First pic is to me the worst one. Football shape and large eye. Second pic is all my pink guys. Pinheads . Notice my runt top right and another lfs top left.
D15DDBDE-E6E9-4A0C-A048-023B25ED3FDB.jpeg
My dirty guys against his pinheads.
4B232EF0-BB96-441C-B58D-B7B7013A9737.jpeg
The blue on the right is the best one from Hans. What do the rest of you think? Only time will tell if these guys are going to change. But me as of now just not that impressed
 

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I see what you see @86 ssinit . The Petco discus does have better shape ..
Dennis discus and one of my customers tried to get me on to Kennies discus are good choices I am told ..
I will wait and see how mine go but until 6-9 months from now unless they are doing poor it matters little IMO .
These are not short lived fish like my poor rams ! They should live a decent life span.
Like I mentioned before with my previous discus endeavor I think 2 years was not a job well done ?
Was it the fish or me ??? We all learn as we go along with the best intentions...
 
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