Tetra disease concerns, advice please

HI Guys,

I am new to this forum and having found most my fish keeping advice on your site, decided to register as I need some advice.

My Setup:
180ltr established tank
Tested regularly with levels at 0, water changes of 25% being done every 3 or 4 days.
All current fish happy, no disease no bullying nothing, very stable eco system

My issue:
I decided to buy 20 Cardinal tetra to add to my setup on Saturday as they look really good in a school, I did my best in the store to check them all for issues but hard when so many in a group.

I have always bought these fish from the same LFS and have had NO problems, (this is the part where people will probably say why dude!).

Because I trust this LFS and they are usually tip top, I did not quarantine these fish, I acclimated them and added them.

I monitored them once added and noticed that one had a slight discolouring to his back around the dorsil fin, was not sure what it was so hit the internet and found similar s of fish with Neon tetra disease (worried face).

Woke up following morning (Sunday) spot had got bigger, to clarify this is a white patch that looks like it has lost all colour in that section. The dorsil fin was limp and down, the little fella was not swimming with others and moving slowly, his spin was curved and getting worse so given that when he dies the disease could be passed on, I removed him and quarantined him, sure enough he started to go belly up and died later on the Sunday.

When I removed him from the 180 tank, I did a recount of all fish and noticed I was down to 17 tetra so I looked for the missing two and found them dead in the filter, must have got pulled in once floated over night.

I took them back to the LFS with a sample of water, I found them to be very defensive when I explained the above, told them I was concerned other fish may have eaten the two dead ones which I had not noticed right away as must have gone over night and they claimed that the disease cannot harm other fish than neon tetra's.

They tested my water which they said was fine, credited me for the tetra I had lost, Sunday night I studied the others at length to be sure and found two of them have very small single silver specks on them, only two tetra have this and it is literally one speck, it does not look like ick and almost looks like a colourless scale rather than the patch of discolour white that the NTD shown so I am not sure what to make of it.

What should I do guys, do you think it is NTD or something else?

I will attach the pictures of the specks shortly, my first thoughts are to monitor them and if it gets worse take them back, or shall I just take the lot back?

Here are the photos, I checked the fish this morning and these specks have got no different since spotting them back on the weekend.








P.S. I appreciate some people will want to dig into the issue of not quaranting them prior, yes I have learnt my lesson, I will quarantine all fish in future and not assume. All other fish seem OK as I acted fast thank god.

 

Hello and welcome to the forum. How many US gallons is your tank? what are your exact parameters? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and PH? And why oh why would you add 20 fish all at once? Not a good idea. That will cause an ammonia spike. Especially if your tank is not fully cycled, which I suspect yours is not, as you stated all your numbers are 0.

 

Wow,

My tank is just under 40 gallons.

As per my previous post my levels are all at 0, nitrates obviously goes up a little sometimes but cleared by ( as per my previous post) 25% water changes every 3 or 4 days.

PH is 7

Adding 20 fish at the same time bearing in mind they are tiny was not an issue at all, lets get one thing straight as you have made assumptions here, I have been keeping fish for quite some time, this is a FULLY cycled and established tank mate so don't make assumptions.

There was no spike at all in ammonia, all other fish have been fine for quite some time as per my previous thread FULLY cycled tank.

This is not even the issue, these fish had these conditions the moment they were placed in the tank, are you here to help or just pick fault at things which you actually just made assumptions on?

Considering I put ESTABLISHED tank, I thought when I said levels are at 0 which they should be if you keep a clean tank with regular water changes, I assumed you would realised the tank is fully cycled, so I guess we both made assumptions

 

I'm only trying to help. Abviously you don't want it. Ok!

 

Sorry, I found your reply a little condesending and it seemed as if you had not read my post fully and made an assumption. Shall we start again?

So given that we have cleared that little issue of miscommunication up, can you help with the actual issue please?

If not that's fine, sure one of the other memebrs may be able to offer some advice.

 

And breathe; I belive the question was asked because it is very rare to have nitrate at 0 unless using something like a nitrate tower, how were they aclimatised? Sometimes just the journey and change from shop to home water conditions can cause loss, especially with smaller fish. As for a small silver scale it could have been damaged when the store tried to catch them, monitor regularly but don't rush into trying to treat something that may not be a disease. Good luck, but don't bite at people trying to help you.

 

25% water changes every 3-4 days should not give you a reading of 0 nitrates unless the tank was very lightly stocked and heavily planted. So it's possible, but unlikely.

I agree that adding 20 fish, even small ones, to a tank at a single time is risky and not a good idea.

I don't think it's NTD. How did you acclimate them? How long were they at the LFS before you got them?

What other fish do you have in the tank?

 

what else is in the tank with these new fish? what lights and substrate are you using?

I am very particular about my tanks and never get a flat 0 across the board. anyone who spends any amount of time in my house can tell you exactly how obsessed I am with the water etc in my tanks. each fish is named and I can tell all of them apart. I keep a journal with pics and observations for each and every fish I have for each and every tank I have.

the tiny dots look, to me, like the start of ich. right now, I would watch the water parameters and monitor the fish closely for any change. you just put them in, so some stress and odd behavior is to be expected until they settle down

 

100% one of these died from neon tetra disease, when I said all levels 0 I meant all bar nitrates as with established tanks this is normal to go up and goes back down with water changes.

I am new to this forum, just felt that Daves response was a bit WHOA! but hey like I said miscommunication.

This tank has been cycled for almost a year so I assured you, it is cycled fully and I have done a lot of research prior to setting any tanks up.

That is what I was thinking, don't rush into treating something as I do panic, I thought a better idea would be don't stress them out by bagging them and taking to shop and seek advice from fishlore.

I am only panicking because of the guy who died from NTD, luckily I got him out before he had chance to die in the tank and potentially infect the other fish but just wanted to see what others on here thought.

Acclimation I usually leave in a bag and float for 15 minutes, then add half cup of water from the tank to the bag every 5 minutes until the bag is full, then I net the fish and put him into the tank and dispose of the bag and its contents.

I turn the aquarium light off during this process and leave off for at least 3 hours or so, I never feed the tank on the day they go in either to avoid spikes in ammonia.

I honestly felt I have done everything by the book (mostly from posts on fish lore) since day one so if I am doing something wrong, open to suggestions?

 

if it has been cycled for a year, you might want to look up old tank syndrome as well

 

jessakitten, the LFS when I shown them the photos said this is not ICH as it starts from the tail.

I am dubios as to what they say though as they will clearly not want me to think fish I just got from them was given to me with ICH so again, open to suggestions....

So is the "it always starts from the tail" told to me by the LFS bull then?

 

I would venture to say that's wrong. I have seen it start at all points on the fish.

 

Never heard of old tank syndrome, will have a google.

 

basically, your tank is stuck in a rut of what it always does. your current fish are fine, but the new ones don't do well. essentially, the current fish have acclimated to your tank. there are a couple posts about it here on fishlore as well

 

Is PH 7 low? I thought this was pretty much in the middle to be fair?

My ammonia is 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate has traces but goes up and down with water changes as expected.

I know your PH all depends on what fish you have but considering people think my tank is not cycled, can you explain what it should look like?

 

pH depends on the water you use in the tank. as long as the pH is stable, it is what it is and there isn't much you can do about it. I have hard water that tests at 7.8 consistently. the only way to combat that is to use RO water or bottled water etc. which, I just pair my fish and plants to my water. I don't try to pair water to fish as that is a pain in the rear

 

You can use products to bring the PH down or up as some fish do better in water with lower or high PH levels.

The water I use in my tank is from my tap and PH is 7, I always dechlorinate the water first and I checked this evertime I brought fish to make sure they be ok, I know cardinals like it slightly lower but LFS said should be OK.

Anyone kept cardinals and disagrees then feel free to add, always happy to learn.

Oh and I don't believe I have old tank syndrome, my tank PH tested Sunday is 7, my tap is 7, ammonia 0 nitrite 0, nitrates traces but again, goes down at water changes which surely as I have read, this is normal right?

Should I start preparing to administer ICH treatment then?

I have monitored the tank since saturday and those spots have literally not moved or spread, none of my other fish have any signs of disease.

Oh Texasdomer, my tank is heavily planted.

 

PH of 7 is perfect. My advice is leave it be. Stability is key with PH. My fish are thriving in a PH of 8.2-8.4. I keep it stable. It takes me a bit longer to acclimate them, but it's better than trying to keep my PH lower.

 

You keep saying traces, are you using the apI test kit? If so bottle no.2 on the nitrate test needs banging as it crystallises; then after adding, shake for 30 seconds minimum and wait 5 mins, you may get a surprise, I used to not shake enough years ago and thought my tank was amazing until I bought a new kit and re read the instructions and realised my nitrates were over 40ppm. Not saying your doing it wrong but worth a check
Edit: again don't rush treatments, if it is ich what's ur tank temp? It may be better to raise the temp for a bit, what's the rest of the tank stock?

 

yeah I don't want to be adding chemicals that are not natural to my tank if I don't have to. I would rather just pick fish that fit my water.

I would monitor and if you start to see more dots, up the temp and treat for ich. most of the time you can cure ich with 86 degree water and gravel vacuuming/water changing. no need for treatments beyond that.

 

I appreciate any help I get, I am by no means know what I am doing but I research stuff before doing it and I like to think I am sort of getting it right.



Aaron yes mate I always shake the heck out of them before I do the tests, it is the liquid API kit as when I researched it, I was informed these are better than paper tests so always done it.

I added a good load of plants as I was told this helps convert any nitrates in the water.

I am going to just monitor them, I love the tetra and I don't want to stress them out for no reason.

Just good to get others opinion as LFS when there is a problem will have their own agenda so always skeptical.

 

Ok no hard feelings. Lets move on. Don't know if this was covered yet... is your tank planted?
Edit: you are planted. Lol that's why hardly no nitrates. Good you are cycled.

 

If the nitrate is that low, then great, as for the fish unless something in the tank could be bullying them I expect it was the stress of being chased around the shop fish tank with a net, journey home and the introduction, as I said smaller fish suffer more in my experience, could never get guppies to survive the journey and last more than a week. Just don't panic and monitor, I'm sure the rest will be fine.

 

Yeah it is a first for me, I think this LFS has gone down hill recently, a lot of dead fish randomly left in tanks which I usually just walk out if I see this a lot but I dunno, gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Just frustrated me when they got so defensive as soon as I mentioned neon tetra disease. I should have followed my gut and walked away really but hey lesson learnt, just want to try and ensure these babies get a good lease of life now I have them. They seem real happy and are staying in a group nice and active, time will tell I guess

 

adeystevo, I read thru the thread and my conclusion is the only thing you did wrong was buy diseased fish and you cannot be blamed for that as it is not visible at that stage.

I have been disease free for 21 years and two years ago I added 10 neons. These did really well and I thought, heck these fish are robust and easy, what is everybody doing wrong for there to be all these threads on dying neons?

So, I recently added 10 more but a week later I noticed 1 of the new ones with neon tetra disease symptoms. I pulled it.

Then, two more, also euthanised.

Now there are three more, when will it end? I don't know but I really want to keep neons so I will be patient.

My aquarium is a very successful planted one and all fish have been very healthy living to a great age. Maybe some neons will survive and maybe I'll build the shoal up again later.

The LFS will be defensive. They have tight margins and sales targets. They don't want to be giving people money back.

I feel your pain.

 

Redshark mate, thank you! It is so frustrating and I'm like checking them every time I pass the tank, I just hope to god what I have spotted are juvenile markings and not the on set of NTD.

I read that the parasite is passed on when the body dies and the other fish eat it, my concern is that the others may have eaten a dead one previously and the disease has not surfaced yet.

beautiful fish and they look great in a large group, all I can do for now is monitor the out of tank and quarantine any that show the signs, I won't give up on this breed though I think they look fanastic.

Still gourami are my favourite though

 

LOL, yes I check them every time and even try and do a count!

I do a gravel vac every morning in the hope of reducing the number of spores.

I don't think I've had a dead one in the tank yet but if one hits the substrate it will be instantly devoured by a swarm of Malaysian Trumpet Snails! The other neons won't get a peck.

Clown Loaches are my favourite but the neon has the potential to be my second favourite if I can get through this disease outbreak.

 

Sounds to me like you are stopping it. Keep us posted.

 

So with today being Wednesday I checked tank fed lightly before I left for work and checked everyone was still there not been sucked into filter etc. All there and the specks have not changed one bit so I stared to feel like OK things are going well.

Came home tonight tested levels and nitrate had risen a bit, did a 25% water change just to be on the safe side and vacced the substrate best I could (I use tetra complete substrate with tetra active underneath) best I could, must have monitored the tank like 6 times since getting in from work and all seems fine.

However at about 23:00 GMT I was doing one last check and noticed one of the neons was on its own hanging around the lava rock and hovering funny, at first I thought he was going to start going belly up as kept going on its side but this was different almost like it was totally off balance.

Possibly swim bladder but nothing I can do right now, but hopefully he is live and kicking in the morning. Will update once checked in morning.

My plan is to feed nothing in the morning when I get in and introduce some de shelled boiled peas as I am told this can help with constipation which can cause swim bladder issues, so frustrating when all other fish fine but these bloody tetra just seem to be screwed.

If there is one thing I have taken away from this trip to the LFS, always go with your gut feeling and if you don't feel 100% on their sh, walk away.

 

P.S redshark I wanted clown loaches, then I saw how big they got and yeah, need another bigger tank for that.