Supposedly ohko stone reacting to acid test

Rick bose

I recently purchased some ohko stone online. I was sceptical whether they are real ohko stone as I had never had them before or seen them firsthand. I had only seen them online before. Mine definitely looked different from the ones found on internet. So I asked here in the forum with pictures what type of stone they are. I was told that they are ohko stones but raw and uncleaned ones. 1 thing to mention, I bought these stones cheap, much cheaper than the price if ohko stone should be. I was told that since they are raw and uncleaned I got a deal.

I submerged the stones for several days in water and brushed it thoroughly until it don't release any more clay or dirt. I cleaned the holes which were filled with mud with sharp wires and now there is no more mud inside them. If I brush them now, they are not releasing anything like they used to. Earlier they released color (probably clay) as the upper layer may possibly be not inert. It's completely clean now. Now comes the real problem. I did a acid test today and found these stones are reacting with the acid. I knew that dragon stones are safe for tanks and don't buffer ph. I knew dragon stones once cleaned properly won't increase oh in water. But when I performes acid test, they are reacting. If a stone react to acid test doesn't this mean it will increase ph in tank? Are they really dragon stones and can they be used in tanks without causing increase of ph in tanks?
 

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TClare

No idea but perhaps it would be a good idea to leave them in a bucket of water for a week or so and test the pH before and after?
 
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FishyChris

Hey! I watch MD Fish Tanks on YouTube and he's used dragon stones before without problems. I've never used them before but they are gorgeous! And I'd want to use them. I agree with TClare , I'd soak them first and test the water and see where it stands! I think it should be alright.
 
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Mcasella

Just scrubbing will not completely clean the dirt off of them, you will need some form of high pressure water to really get everything off (if you have a jet setting on your showerhead or are able to pressurize your water hose that would be the lowest powered way to do it). Otherwise a soak test like above will be the best way to see if it will cause a spike (i would do a high powered wash first though).
 
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Rick bose

No idea but perhaps it would be a good idea to leave them in a bucket of water for a week or so and test the pH before and after?
Hey! I watch MD Fish Tanks on YouTube and he's used dragon stones before without problems. I've never used them before but they are gorgeous! And I'd want to use them. I agree with TClare , I'd soak them first and test the water and see where it stands! I think it should be alright.
But are these dragon stones for certain? First, I want to know whether they are really ohko stones or not.

I have already kept them submerged them in water for 4 days. The problem is I didn't measure the water ph before when I first soaked them as I knew ohko stones are safe for fish tanks and they won't buffer ph. Today before putting them in the tank, I performed acid tests for several other rocks that I have to make sure whether I can aquascape with them. Then I did the acid test for these rocks too and found that they are reacting. Actually I am redoing my aquascape wholly. I have put the fish from these tanks to another tank resulting in seriously overstocking that tank. This is supposed to be temporarily. I am planning to a partition between and keep two kinds of substrate on either end. That's why I have taken out all my fish and all my substrate too. I would use some of the old substrate and some new substrate of different colour to achieve this. Noe I would do the partition between the two substrate so that they won't mix together with rocks. So if I have to now keep them for 1 more week to test ph, then the fishes will have to live for 1 more week being super overstocked. Without using rocks the partition can't be done. If I don't make the partition now and include substrate and put back the fish, then I can't make the partition and keep two different colored substrate divided after. I have to again take out all the substrate and the fish. This is the dilemma.
Now can't anyone here tell me whether these are really ohko stones and whether they will be safe for aquariums? Are they supposed to react to acid test as I knew ohko stones are safe for fish tanks & don't increase ph? Whether mine will increase ph since they are reacting to acid test?
Just scrubbing will not completely clean the dirt off of them, you will need some form of high pressure water to really get everything off (if you have a jet setting on your showerhead or are able to pressurize your water hose that would be the lowest powered way to do it). Otherwise a soak test like above will be the best way to see if it will cause a spike (i would do a high powered wash first though).
I have already done that high powered wash twice once before submerging them in water and one after. I have my used showerhead that had jet setting. I forgot to mention that before using the jet spray I have used various sharp tools from scissors to tweezers to screw drivers to poke the holes of the stones and take out as much as I can or to loosen the mud oresent therein.

After doing all these, when they are completely clean, I did the acid test. Now if I submerge them in water they aren't releasing anything(the water remains crystal clear now), if I insert swabs inside the holes no mud or dirt is to be seen, if I scrub them nothing is coming off. After this I did the acid test and found they are reacting. Are they really ohko stones and do ohko stones react to acid test? Will they increase oh in tank since they are reacting to acid test?
 
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Mcasella

They honestly do not look like dragon stone, even the red variant. They kind of remind me of maple leaf rock, which is a buffering stone that raises calcium content (so would react to an acid).

Keeping up with water changes can help prevent the buffering the rock could produce (dragon stone does not react to acid, other things that haven't been cleaned off the dragon stone could). If you are wanting a true partition getting some plastic to place in the middle between the two types of gravel would work (some people use the plastic pot water catchers that are fairly cheap and easy to cut to shape).
 
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Rick bose

They honestly do not look like dragon stone, even the red variant. They kind of remind me of maple leaf rock, which is a buffering stone that raises calcium content (so would react to an acid).

Keeping up with water changes can help prevent the buffering the rock could produce (dragon stone does not react to acid, other things that haven't been cleaned off the dragon stone could). If you are wanting a true partition getting some plastic to place in the middle between the two types of gravel would work (some people use the plastic pot water catchers that are fairly cheap and easy to cut to shape).
I know plastic could work but I don't like the look of them in fish tanks. Actually what I am trying to aquascape and get the look of - the two color substrate will be separated by rocks in between, rocks that will rise few inches more than the level of the substrate. The rocks will be much higher than the substrate level giving them a distinctive separate tall look. I want to give it a look that the rocks have separated the two substrate and as if they act as a barrier between the two substrate. I am sharing you a pic to show you what I am trying.

This was my betta tank. The rocks are congo holey rocks. They seriously raised my tank ph. I didn't know congo holey rocks are supposed to raise tank ph. Then reasearched and found out that ohko stones are safe as they don't raise ph, so I searched them in all my LFS. They didn't have them. Then I ordered them online. The betta is a bucket right now. After aquascaping this tank, I would have aquascaped my betta tank too. So I think I will wait for 1 more week and see whether the rocks really raise ph. So in the mean time that tabk will remain seriously overstocked for 1 week. That is a 22g long tank. Length - 36 inch, breadth -12 inch. Currently the fishes it has - 7 black skirt tetras, 7 red eye tetras, 9 bronze corydoras, 1 zebra loach(remaining school died long ago during a 8 day long power cut and I am not finding them anywhere to buy since then), 11 zebra danios, 6 guppies, 1 pearl gourami, 4 dwarf peacrox rainbowfish, 3 rosy barbs(the rest of the school died few days back due to oxygen deficiency in water because I forgot to switch on the pump, I explained that in another post of mine few days ago). What do you recommend for this tabk meanwhile? Should I stop feeding them or should I feed with few days gap in between? Or should I perform water change every few days and feed them like normal? Also can I keep the betta in this tank too without keeping it in a bucket for a week or so?


PS - When I asked here in fishlore forum whether they are really ohko stones after getting them as I was very sceptical that they weren't't ohko stones, I was told they are. Just raw and uncleaned ones. I felt too that they weren't dragon stones when I got them at first. I could have returned them at that time. But since I was told they are indeed dragon stones, I didn't return them. Now the return date is over and I can't return them anymore. It was also my mistake not to perform the acid test at that time. As after asking here, I believed they are indeed dragon stones, I never felt the need to perform the acid test as I knew they are safe and won't increase ph.
They honestly do not look like dragon stone, even the red variant. They kind of remind me of maple leaf rock, which is a buffering stone that raises calcium content (so would react to an acid).

Keeping up with water changes can help prevent the buffering the rock could produce (dragon stone does not react to acid, other things that haven't been cleaned off the dragon stone could). If you are wanting a true partition getting some plastic to place in the middle between the two types of gravel would work (some people use the plastic pot water catchers that are fairly cheap and easy to cut to shape).
If not dragon stone, what kind of rock they are then? Is your bet on maple leaf rock or do you have something else in your mind too? It's just that, I would like to do some research on the kind of rock they are. After knowing what they are, I can do the research on them. I live in India if it helps. I bought them very cheap, like at 1/3rd of what the price of dragon stone should be. I thought I was getting a huge bargain.

And tell me what is the minimum number of days to know whether they are increasing ph? I use lithmus paper strip to test ph. If I check my ph before putting the rock in a bucket, what will be the minimum number of days after which I can test the water in the bucket to know whether it has increased ph?
 

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Mcasella

I know plastic could work but I don't like the look of them in fish tanks. Actually what I am trying to aquascape and get the look of - the two color substrate will be separated by rocks in between, rocks that will rise few inches more than the level of the substrate. The rocks will be much higher than the substrate level giving them a distinctive separate tall look. I want to give it a look that the rocks have separated the two substrate and as if they act as a barrier between the two substrate. I am sharing you a pic to show you what I am trying.

This was my betta tank. The rocks are congo holey rocks. They seriously raised my tank ph. I didn't know congo holey rocks are supposed to raise tank ph. Then reasearched and found out that ohko stones are safe as they don't raise ph, so I searched them in all my LFS. They didn't have them. Then I ordered them online. The betta is a bucket right now. After aquascaping this tank, I would have aquascaped my betta tank too. So I think I will wait for 1 more week and see whether the rocks really raise ph. So in the mean time that tabk will remain seriously overstocked for 1 week. That is a 22g long tank. Length - 36 inch, breadth -12 inch. Currently the fishes it has - 7 black skirt tetras, 7 red eye tetras, 9 bronze corydoras, 1 zebra loach(remaining school died long ago during a 8 day long power cut and I am not finding them anywhere to buy since then), 11 zebra danios, 6 guppies, 1 pearl gourami, 4 dwarf peacrox rainbowfish, 3 rosy barbs(the rest of the school died few days back due to oxygen deficiency in water because I forgot to switch on the pump, I explained that in another post of mine few days ago). What do you recommend for this tabk meanwhile? Should I stop feeding them or should I feed with few days gap in between? Or should I perform water change every few days and feed them like normal? Also can I keep the betta in this tank too without keeping it in a bucket for a week or so?


PS - When I asked here in fishlore forum whether they are really ohko stones after getting them as I was very sceptical that they weren't't ohko stones, I was told they are. Just raw and uncleaned ones. I felt too that they weren't dragon stones when I got them at first. I could have returned them at that time. But since I was told they are indeed dragon stones, I didn't return them. Now the return date is over and I can't return them anymore. It was also my mistake not to perform the acid test at that time. As after asking here, I believed they are indeed dragon stones, I never felt the need to perform the acid test as I knew they are safe and won't increase ph.

If not dragon stone, what kind of rock they are then? Is your bet on maple leaf rock or do you have something else in your mind too? It's just that, I would like to do some research on the kind of rock they are. After knowing what they are, I can do the research on them. I live in India if it helps. I bought them very cheap, like at 1/3rd of what the price of dragon stone should be. I thought I was getting a huge bargain.
You can use a temporary vase to house the betta so he has more room to move around and you are able to see him better.

I would alternate or only feed every two days with the main tank, keep air pumps going and do smaller frequent water changes to keep on top of excess nutrients that could cause high nitrate. The zebra loach can be left as a single fish (they do best either as a single or with a large group).

With the stones I can't say their exact type, they look similar to maple rock for the small hole/divot structure and coloring, however they do not seem to have enough of the white veining maple rock is known for (similar to leaf veins) and almost look denser. While dragon stone can be dense, the formation is normally very telling even without as many holes it still has the structure for the holes when it was broken from larger pieces (either intentionally or accidentally).
 
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Rick bose

You can use a temporary vase to house the betta so he has more room to move around and you are able to see him better.

I would alternate or only feed every two days with the main tank, keep air pumps going and do smaller frequent water changes to keep on top of excess nutrients that could cause high nitrate. The zebra loach can be left as a single fish (they do best either as a single or with a large group).

With the stones I can't say their exact type, they look similar to maple rock for the small hole/divot structure and coloring, however they do not seem to have enough of the white veining maple rock is known for (similar to leaf veins) and almost look denser. While dragon stone can be dense, the formation is normally very telling even without as many holes it still has the structure for the holes when it was broken from larger pieces (either intentionally or accidentally).
Thanks for all the detailed answers. I will buy some more rosy barbs after my tank gets sorted out. I had 4 zebra loaches. Never knew they thrive solo too. I searched for them in many LFS thinking it should not be kept solo, should be kept only in groups but couldn't find them anywhere. So now since I know they do thrive single too, I won't search them any longer and keep him solo.

I edited my last post before you posting this post. I think you had started writing this before my edit and didn't notice my edit. Can you answer what I wrote at the very last stanza of my previous post?
 
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Mcasella

Thanks for all the detailed answers. I will buy some more rosy barbs after my tank gets sorted out. I had 4 zebra loaches. Never knew they thrive solo too. I searched for them in many LFS thinking it should not be kept solo, should be kept only in groups but couldn't find them anywhere. So now since I know they do thrive single too, I won't search them any longer and keep him solo.

I edited my last post before you posting this post. I think you had started writing this before my edit and didn't notice my edit. Can you answer what I wrote at the very last stanza of my previous post?
Ph mainly depends on how much it is releasing and how quickly. The faster it releases calcium the quicker it can affect ph. I'd suggest checking it over a couple days to see how quickly it is going up and if that amount would be manageable for you to be able to use the rocks.
 
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MacZ

They honestly do not look like dragon stone, even the red variant. They kind of remind me of maple leaf rock, which is a buffering stone that raises calcium content (so would react to an acid).

I agree that it's not dragonstone. I would have guessed a limey sediment rock, maybe a sandstone variant.
 
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Rick bose

Ph mainly depends on how much it is releasing and how quickly. The faster it releases calcium the quicker it can affect ph. I'd suggest checking it over a couple days to see how quickly it is going up and if that amount would be manageable for you to be able to use the rocks.
I am actually asking how many days you are recommending when you are saying a couple of days? Checking it after how many days should I introduce them in the tank? If I check for 3-4 days and see there's not much increase in ph, can I put them in tank or do I need to check the ph level after a week or maybe more to see how much ph has increased and then decide? What is the safe minimum number of days that you would suggest to keep them submerged in bucket before checking the ph level and putting them in the tank?
 
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Mcasella

I would check at 3 days, 5 days, and 7 days to get a good idea of how fast it is going up. If it is going up too fast I would be concerned about keeping it down safely.
 
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Rick bose

I agree that it's not dragonstone. I would have guessed a limey sediment rock, maybe a sandstone variant.
If only you two guys were there to reply when I first asked whether they are dragon stones or not after getting them in another thread, then I would gave able to return them and get my money back. Sigh. Now return date is over.

I bought it from amazon. There it says it is ohko stone. There on the amazon webpage it is sold as ohko stone. Though the images shown on the webpage are totally different than what I got. Though after getting them I too felt that they aren't dragon stone and asked in the forum. I was told that they were dragon stones by 2 other members. So didn't initiate return. If I knew earlier, I could have reported the seller that they are selling false items and return and get the refund. My bad luck!!

Anyway, let's wait and see how much significant ph it increases over the next few days.
I would check at 3 days, 5 days, and 7 days to get a good idea of how fast it is going up. If it is going up too fast I would be concerned about keeping it down safely.
Thanks.. I would do that. I might consult with you after 7 days after getting to know about the oh increase if I require any further advice.
 
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Mcasella

If only you two guys were there to reply when I first asked whether they are dragon stones or not after getting them in another thread, then I would gave able to return them and get my money back. Sigh. Now return date is over.

I bought it from amazon. There it says it is ohko stone. There on the amazon webpage it is sold as ohko stone. Though the images shown on the webpage are totally different than what I got. Though after getting them I too felt that they aren't dragon stone and asked in the forum. I was told that they were dragon stones by 2 other members. So didn't initiate return. If I knew earlier, I could have reported the seller that they are selling false items and return and get the refund. My bad luck!!

Anyway, let's wait and see how much significant ph it increases over the next few days.

Thanks.. I would do that. I might consult with you after 7 days after getting to know about the oh increase if I require any further advice.
I would still contact amazon to see if they can either help you with a refund or otherwise because you were sent a false product. The seller is likely doing the same to other people that also didn't know what it was - it isn't dangerous with fish that like high ph, but it wouldn't be good to do long term if it is releasing high amounts of calcium as it will cause your ph to yoyo with every water change. If it is a lower/slower amount of calcium it wouldn't be as concerning to keep it in check with water changes long term.
 
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Rick bose

I would still contact amazon to see if they can either help you with a refund or otherwise because you were sent a false product. The seller is likely doing the same to other people that also didn't know what it was - it isn't dangerous with fish that like high ph, but it wouldn't be good to do long term if it is releasing high amounts of calcium as it will cause your ph to yoyo with every water change. If it is a lower/slower amount of calcium it wouldn't be as concerning to keep it in check with water changes long term.
Yes, I will. Though I know what kind of response I will probably get. Amazon India is not as good as Amazon Us or Europe in hearing customer grievances or boycotting fraud sellers. I am not even considering that I will be refunded but since the seller is doing wrong and this will harm other future buyers too if the seller continues to do so, for that reason I will let amazon know that they gave me false item.

I have 4 more queries. Hope you can help.

1. My tapwater is already 8. Since I use litmus paper, I don't know the exact ph. It can be point something more than 8 too. And most of those fishes are living with me for more than 2 years with that ph level. I didn't try anything to lower the ph. But now the bronze corydoras, zebra danios, zebra loach, black skirt tetra will be moved to that permanently where they are now. This is a cycled new tank. I am planning to make this tank blackwater with leaves and driftwood. These fish actually like lower ph. Since my ph is 8, I seriously doubt how much ph the leaves and wood can lower. But even if it can lower a little bit, that will be more appropriate for those fishes. But the remaining fish - guppies, red eye tetras, rosy barbs, neon peacrox rainbow fish and the pearl gourami will get back to the old tank that I am planning to aquascape with the rocks. As per I know these fishes can tolerate slightky hard water. Guppies & rainbow fish are actually hard water fish. My question is what is the maximum amount of ph these fish can tolerate that will be in this tank? As I rosy barbs, red eye tetras or pearl gouramis aren't exactly hard water species. I know stable ph level and assimilation are the keys. Still what is the maximum ph they can live without any problem?

2. If I use the large 2 rocks in the tanks as shown in the 1st picture, not the smaller one in a 20g tank, how much ph it can potentially increase if the tapwater ph is 8. The weight of the 2 rocks will be around 10 lbs. The dimensions of the biggest rock is like 10 inch by 5 inch by 4 inch.

3. If I use ph lowering agents in the tank like coconut, banana, guava leaves or peat moss (not sphagnum) can they really lower ph to a extent when my tapwater is already 8 and I will use those rocks too that can potentially increase my ph?

4. I think 8ish ph is good enough. So suppose I use the stones that will increase ph and the leaves, pear moss too(if they lower ph) and can maintain a stable ph by using both the agents that increase and decrease ph after monitoring ph regularly and increasing leaves when required during the first phase until I know what will be ideal. Now will that create any problem like altering the ph too much to harm the fish durimg water changes or when I take those leaves out and introduce new leaves?

I am hoping you or MacZ or someone else can solve all my queries. Thanks in advance.
 
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Mcasella

Yes, I will. Though I know what kind of response I will probably get. Amazon India is not as good as Amazon Us or Europe in hearing customer grievances or boycotting fraud sellers. I am not even considering that I will be refunded but since the seller is doing wrong and this will harm other future buyers too if the seller continues to do so, for that reason I will let amazon know that they gave me false item.

I have 4 more queries. Hope you can help.

1. My tapwater is already 8. Since I use litmus paper, I don't know the exact ph. It can be point something more than 8 too. And most of those fishes are living with me for more than 2 years with that ph level. I didn't try anything to lower the ph. But now the bronze corydoras, zebra danios, zebra loach, black skirt tetra will be moved to that permanently where they are now. This is a cycled new tank. I am planning to make this tank blackwater with leaves and driftwood. These fish actually like lower ph. Since my ph is 8, I seriously doubt how much ph the leaves and wood can lower. But even if it can lower a little bit, that will be more appropriate for those fishes. But the remaining fish - guppies, red eye tetras, rosy barbs, neon peacrox rainbow fish and the pearl gourami will get back to the old tank that I am planning to aquascape with the rocks. As per I know these fishes can tolerate slightky hard water. Guppies & rainbow fish are actually hard water fish. My question is what is the maximum amount of ph these fish can tolerate that will be in this tank? As I rosy barbs, red eye tetras or pearl gouramis aren't exactly hard water species. I know stable ph level and assimilation are the keys. Still what is the maximum ph they can live without any problem?

2. If I use the large 2 rocks in the tanks as shown in the 1st picture, not the smaller one in a 20g tank, how much ph it can potentially increase if the tapwater ph is 8. The weight of the 2 rocks will be around 10 lbs. The dimensions of the biggest rock is like 10 inch by 5 inch by 4 inch.

3. If I use ph lowering agents in the tank like coconut, banana, guava leaves or peat moss (not sphagnum) can they really lower ph to a extent when my tapwater is already 8 and I will use those rocks too that can potentially increase my ph?

4. I think 8ish ph is good enough. So suppose I use the stones that will increase ph and the leaves, pear moss too(if they lower ph) and can maintain a stable ph by using both the agents that increase and decrease ph after monitoring ph regularly and increasing leaves when required during the first phase until I know what will be ideal. Now will that create any problem like altering the ph too much to harm the fish durimg water changes or when I take those leaves out and introduce new leaves?

I am hoping you or MacZ or someone else can solve all my queries. Thanks in advance.
1- Guppies can be transitioned to salt water (not the really inbred fancies, but ones closer to wild type - they take longer than mollies do though). I cannot say for how high they can go physically, you can try premixing water with extra leaves or really dense driftwood to absorb some of the mineral content (which is how they drop the ph, they absorb the Kh) to help alleviate higher ph issues. Definitely introduce them to it via drip acclimation so they are less likely to go into shock (definitely get the tank up and running for a couple days if possible before adding fish so you can see what is going on).

2- With your high ph they may not leech as much mineral content (similar to salt water rock not breaking down easily in saltwater because it is such a high ph, where if it were put into fresh it wouldn't hold together as well). I cannot say how fast it will alter it, denser rock also won't break down as quickly. With testing with acid it is the extreme opposite of your current ph, you may find it only raises it 0.1-0.2 on ph and nothing as crazy as taking it up to a ph of 9.

3- It may balance it out, it may make it lower, causing the rock to leech more mineral.

4- Generally you just leave the leaves to break down completely, especially if you have shrimp or other inverts that eat them. If the ph is fairly similar to what is being added it shouldn't cause much of a fluctuation. Where I work the filtered water comes out at 7.2, most of the tanks are 7.9, with the salts running 8.3 only one tank (display) is a low ph (6.4) and that is because it has fluval stratum as the substrate and two larger pieces of driftwood in a fairly small tank, I add the 7.2 directly to the smaller tank and to the sumps of the other tanks (salt top offs are with the 7.2, more water is done with premixed salt that run around 1.018-20 and ph is about 8).
 
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