Super uneasy about an online purchase, need advice

Hello all,

So I pretty regularly buy fish online without a problem. Lately I've been using Aquabid with some pretty crappy experiences, including one that I'm in the middle of now. Over 3 weeks ago I bought fish from a seller, had tons of issues with the transaction itself and we are finally to the point they're starting to ship my fish. I

Well I bought angels and severms. The severms the ad said they were smaller (roughly the size of a quarter) so I'm not as worried about them. The angels didn't say anything about size but photos provided looked like Sm/Med sized you'd buy in a pet store. Fast forward to yesterday, I get an email saying the angels shipped and that included in the package is dime sized angels....when I go back and look at the reviews now of this seller I see only bad things about experiences people had where these actually end up "culls" not quality fish. He also informed me at this point they're only eating live baby brine shrimp. I purchased 5 angels, he also informed he's sending 3 extra in case they don't make it (again not a comforting thing to hear), and two of another type of angel he breeds.

So now I'm trying to figure out a set up as I had originally planned setting up a pond style grow out tank for both the angels and the severms but I feel 180g pond style tank may be too hard to manage while I try to make sure they're eating. Any advice? I'm thinking I'll likely put the angels in well established 10 gallon tank that I have a couple female bettas in and move the bettas. I do also have multiple other smaller tanks and some bigger ones, I'm just trying to figure out the best option until I can be sure they're all doing well and eating. The seller says put them in the smallest tank possible but I have some old 1 gallon tanks and I think that'll be way to small for anything but plants but that's just me.

They'll be here tomorrow so I need to figure out a plan for feeding them too since I was not at all planning for fish that were only eating live baby brine shrimp.

I've been keeping fish for over 20 years, everything from common goldfish to seahorses and I think this is the first time I've honestly been unsure how to handle the situation.

Tips? Advice? Words of encouragement? I am so beyond bummed since I was trying to get into breeding angels for the first time and my first experiences have clearly been a mess.

[Oh and the severms? I have no idea when they're going to ship.....*insert eyeroll here*]

Update....not sure what got into USPS but apparently the fish will be delivered within the next 3-4 hours.....so now I'm on an even bigger time crunch.

 

I think they will be fine in the 10 gallon. Honestly they will be okay in any tank that you can accommodate that is well established or has established filtration and water column. You could simply use a single sponge filter in a 5 to 10 gallon and focus mainly on feeding and water changes. As far as food, you can always go to your lfs and grab some food called “first bites” that is actually baby brine shrimp just not live. They should take to those just as well.

Maybe angelcraze or bizaliz3 will be able to chime in soon and be a little more help than myself! Best of luck to you! Hope everything arrives live and well!

 

I think they will be fine in the 10 gallon. Honestly they will be okay in any tank that you can accommodate that is well established or has established filtration and water column. You could simply use a single sponge filter in a 5 to 10 gallon and focus mainly on feeding and water changes. As far as food, you can always go to your lfs and grab some food called “first bites” that is actually baby brine shrimp just not live. They should take to those just as well.

Thank you! I am hoping to find those, if not I know some pet stores use to sell frozen baby brine so I may try that too. I am also going to try to pick up some flake food to try to crush and see if they'll eat (I don't feed flake at my house normally)

 

I just got some dime sized angels myself a month ago and they are already half dollar size. Luckily my angels ate minI pellets right away. I fed them the 0.25mm NLS shrimp pellets at first and now they are eating 0.5mm NLS grow pellets. I mix up the brands, but stay at that size. Brands I trust are NLS, Omega One and NorthFin.

Frozen BBS is a good option. I have a hard find feeding it cuz i'm allergic, but my baby angels always go crazy for them.

I will say i'm sorry the Aquabid seller sent you such tiny angels. It's not easy to raise tiny angels, but I have confidence you can totally do it!

So I started a tank up for my angels. I used some established bio media and floss in an internal filter pointing upward (so the flow was not too much) and halfway filled a 40 gallon (doesn't have to be that big and I agree, smaller tanks are better for baby angels to find food. But 10 gallon is the small size I was thinking. 1 gal is too small. Obviously you know the smaller the tank, the faster params will change, but if you are diligent with water changes, the water should stay safe for the young ones.

After I start up the QT tank, I have to be very careful to test the tank to make sure the cycle took. If not, I add more established media. All the while, i'm doing daily (or every other day) 50% water changes. Now i'm changing water every 3 days or so.

I personally like to use bare-bottom tanks for angelfish growout. I'm so much better able to keep the tank clean and water changes are a synch. I add lucky bamboo and water lettuce for plants and a couple catappa leaves for general good health.

 

I just got some dime sized angels myself a month ago and they are already half dollar size. Luckily my angels ate minI pellets right away. I fed them the 0.25mm NLS shrimp pellets at first and now they are eating 0.5mm NLS grow pellets. I mix up the brands, but stay at that size. Brands I trust are NLS, Omega One and NorthFin.

Frozen BBS is a good option. I have a hard find feeding it cuz i'm allergic, but my baby angels always go crazy for them.

I will say i'm sorry the Aquabid seller sent you such tiny angels. It's not easy to raise tiny angels, but I have confidence you can totally do it!

So I started a tank up for my angels. I used some established bio media and floss in an internal filter pointing upward (so the flow was not too much) and halfway filled a 40 gallon (doesn't have to be that big and I agree, smaller tanks are better for baby angels to find food. But 10 gallon is the small size I was thinking. 1 gal is too small. Obviously you know the smaller the tank, the faster params will change, but if you are diligent with water changes, the water should stay safe for the young ones.

After I start up the QT tank, I have to be very careful to test the tank to make sure the cycle took. If not, I add more established media. All the while, i'm doing daily (or every other day) 50% water changes. Now i'm changing water every 3 days or so.

I personally like to use bare-bottom tanks for angelfish growout. I'm so much better able to keep the tank clean and water changes are a synch. I add lucky bamboo and water lettuce for plants and a couple catappa leaves for general good health.

My goal is once I get them eating and such I'd love to move them to the pond style grow out until the fish room is done. That means TONS of space for them but 180g is way too big to try to ensure 10 tiny baby angels are eating. I think I'm going to go for the 10 gallon for now then move them to a 29 gallon then off to the pond style grow out until they get bigger. I'm hoping to try tiny pellets, flakes, and frozen brine.

I think my big frustration is if I was expecting tiny angels eating only live food I could have prepared more but the ad was very deceiving and I assumed the photos of the angels were the photos of the ones I was getting (5 photos of medium sized angels for an ad that was for 5 angels). Live and learn I guess. I'm just really hoping they survive. Going forward I think I'm done with Aquabid. Way too many issues I've had versus successful transactions

 

Sounds really good to me! I agree, the pond is too big for the little angels, but with lots of fresh water and good nutrition, they will grow up in no time. My babies are almost big enough to go with adults, not quite, but they are noticeably larger and thicker. I don't worry about the tank size and then finding food anymore and it's only been a month or two at the most. Btw, I added 9 angels, very similar to yourself. At least you'll know how to take care of the babies' babies once they breed for you!

 

Sounds really good to me! I agree, the pond is too big for the little angels, but with lots of fresh water and good nutrition, they will grow up in no time. My babies are almost big enough to go with adults, not quite, but they are noticeably larger and thicker. I don't worry about the tank size and then finding food anymore and it's only been a month or two at the most.

I am just super worried about them surviving. Then going back through the reviews looking specifically at the angel listings I see a lot of negative reviews for deformed fish. So I'm going to assume these may not even grow up to be good breeders regardless.

 

I am just super worried about them surviving. Then going back through the reviews looking specifically at the angel listings I see a lot of negative reviews for deformed fish. So I'm going to assume these may not even grow up to be good breeders regardless.

Awww. Don't fret yet. Two of my angels had short gill plates, one had a missing pelvic fin and all of them had fin erosion. It took maybe a week for them to grow the finds back and I can't really see the short gill plates. Maybe I can't breed the two, but I have 5 other angels like those two that look beautiful. So you can't judge a shipment when it first comes in. The main thing is that they are healthy. Then go from there. My babies are looking more and more beautiful as the grow

I'm annoyed with the seller cuz idk how they sell fish that aren't even weaned off live BBS. Dime size is difficult (just meaning it requires water change dedication and making sure they are eating) but not newborns. By the time c they are dime sized, they are already quite established as baby angels. Not as delicate as some ppl think. You can do this! You have 20 years experience! I totally have trust in you! Good luck

 

Awww. Don't fret yet. Two of my angels had short gill plates, one had a missing pelvic fin and all of them had fin erosion. It took maybe a week for them to grow the finds back and I can't really see the short gill plates. Maybe I can't breed the two, but I have 5 other angels like those two that look beautiful. So you can't judge a shipment when it first comes in. The main thing is that they are healthy. Then go from there. My babies are looking more and more beautiful as the grow

I'm annoyed with the seller cuz idk how they sell fish that aren't even weaned off live BBS. Dime size is difficult (just meaning it requires water change dedication and making sure they are eating) but not newborns. By the time c they are dime sized, they are already quite established as baby angels. Not as delicate as some ppl think. You can do this! You have 20 years experience! I totally have trust in you! Good luck

Thank you for the confidence boost. With all the crazy fish I've kept in the past this shouldn't scare me. I think its just that I'm an over preparer. I research and prep for everything. So I think it just being a surprise is what is pushing me over the edge lol.

How often would you recommend water changes? I was thinking 2-3 times a week but I can definitely do more or less if you think that's better!

 

I am sorry you have had such a rotten experience with this exchange.

Reading this just makes me angry. It is absolutely unacceptable to be shipping baby fish that haven’t even been weaned off of baby brine shrimp yet! I personally think dime sized is too early to be shipping. But even worse to do so with fish that are still eating nothing but live baby food! I will sell my angels at dime sized (locally, not shipped) but there is no way in heck I would sell them to people if they were still eating nothing but live baby brine shrimp!!

And they are telling you to put them in the smallest tank possible???? Gosh…makes me wonder what sized tank the seller had them in. I would be interested in how old they are in comparison to their size. Yes, a smaller tank is better to help them find food AT FIRST, when they are teeny tiny newborn fry. But finding food is not an issue for dime sized angels! (who should be about 8 weeks old) They are WAY past the “keep them in something small so they can find food” stage. Their growth may have been stunted if the sellers advice is to keep them in a very small tank even at this stage. (though stunting is not permanent, so no worries there) My dime sized angels are in a 75 gallon and a 46 gallon! They need space to grow properly. I wouldn’t keep my own dime sized angels in something as small as a 10g! Mine are out of a 10 gallon by the time they are 4 weeks old. And barely pea sized.

HOWEVER, your scenario is a little different. You want to QT these fish for sure. And keeping them in a 10 gallon temporarily will be ok as a QT tank. But not more than a few weeks in my opinion. Ive used 10 gallons to QT angels much larger than dime sized. But it wasn’t 8-10 angels. It was just one or two. My point is, I support the small tank theory if it is for QT. But I don’t support it if the reason is simply for them to be able to find food. If they are so underdeveloped at dime sized that they struggle to locate food, that is a problem.

At least you learned a lesson here…do NOT buy fish from anyone without reading the reviews first! I made that mistake years ago with another seller that has so many bad reviews its disgusting!!! But I didn’t see those before buying. I know its too late for you now. But if breeding was your goal, it would have been best to find a well respected breeder with good reviews. I worry that the fish you are getting won’t be breeder quality if the seller is known for sending out culls. If things go south with these fish (which I hope they don’t of course) send me a message and I will lead you some some very very well respected angelfish breeders who send nothing but high quality fish and never received a bad review ever. Those would be the kind of angels you want to seek out to start a nice quality breeding stock.

Here is my advice under the circumstances. I would put them all in the well established 10g. If they are dime sized, they really shouldn’t need something like hikarI first bites. Those are for itty bitty fry. You should be fine just crushing up flakes for them. They are fully capable of eating that. Its just a question of if they will be WILLING TO if all they have known is LIVE baby brine shrimp. It might take them a little bit to realize it is food. But eventually they should get hungry enough that they will give it a try. The issue with food here isn’t that they are too small for something other than BBS or other fry specific foods. The issue is that they have not been weaned off of the BBS and are likely going to be picky eaters at first.

I would also do small daily water changes for 8 dime sized angels in a tank that small. And then once the QT period is over, I’d get them moved to something larger asap. I am convinced based on your story, that these fish have not been given the space they need and will hugely benefit by getting into a larger tank.

Actually you did say you have various sized tanks available. Do you have something more in the range of 20-40 gallons you could use for the new arrivals? That you could jump start with seeded media from other tanks? I think that would be ideal. What are your tank options outside of the 10 gallon?

edit....a lot of posts while I was typing. I would START with the 29 gallon personally. As long as you have plenty of established filter media to get started.

 

No worries, I am the same! Takes me forever to get new fish because of all the prep I do lol.

I do water changes every second day for dime sized and gradually space them out until they are adults and i'm doing a 50% weekly.

Edit: just saw Biz's post. I agree the 10 gallon is ok for QT, but they will absolutely outgrow that very soon and I recommend daily changes in the 10g. I do more than a small water change, but if params are good then it's mostly cleaning the bottom that is important. And I again stress fresh water.

 

The 10 gallon is not at all a permanent solution it actually is more temporary until I know theyre eating well then I have a few larger tanks 30-55g tanks I plan to put into use

Unfortunately as Biz knows as we also found each other on Facebook, the story gets worst.... the angels arrived and they’re actually half the size of a dime (I took a photo in the bag with a dime behind it) one was dead. So for now I have 9 angels, spent a couple hours slowly acclimating them. Unsure how things are going to go.

Based on everything I am going to try to get them to survive obviously but I doubt I’ll use them for breeding. I’ll probably grow them out and watch for issues and then trade them in or something. (As long as they are healthy but just not breeding quality)

This is definitely a learning experience and I will likely look for some breeders in the next month or two. Big bummer as I can’t stand to have to watch fish die when it clearly could be avoided.

I have a few friends with LFS and such around I’m going to call around tomorrow and see if any of them happen to have any live baby brine

 

Check out the Imperial Tropicals website. They got lots of South American species. The have a strong YouTube presence as well.

My friend and I have placed some orders last year with them, and we would again

All fish received were alive, healthy and as advertised

 

All 9 thankfully made it through the night. The seller is placing the blame on me because I should just be happy with the "extras" (that I did not ask for) were included and he feels he went above and beyond for me. I still never received my other cichlids I ordered (long story about that too, this guy is clearly a con artist). So I'm probably going to have to go the route of a paypal dispute and having Aquabid step in. I spend about $100 in total with this guy so I'm super annoyed and disappointed.

Check out the Imperial Tropicals website. They got lots of South American species. The have a strong YouTube presence as well.

My friend and I have placed some orders last year with them, and we would again

All fish received were alive, healthy and as advertised

I'll check them out, I probably won't order anything else for at least a little bit since I am hoping these won't die but we shall see.

 

Horrible situation. I hope you get the issue resolved through PayPal and Aquabid.

Sounds like this is the normal M.O. for that seller. Basically they are a loser.

I agree with your comment about trading them in later and not wanting to breed them.

You may want to check out Dean Tweeddale, and other fish YouTubers have done videos on his Angelfish breeding and fishroom. I'm sure he can get you quality stock to breed.

 

From just about every word you used to describe the sellers fish and their advice without saying who it is I'll shoot out you bought from J . G . !
Hope the angels do alright for you .. His sales have always said Aprox. dime size even when selling discus .
On the deformed fish how would a breeder know if he never sees any of his fish grow out ?? Selling them that small he has no clue ?
I breed from my own stock , rarely if ever sell fish less then 4 months old .. I know what my fish will look like .

 

And lets put this in perspective folks…that is a DIME underneath that fish. A DIME! The fish is smaller than the smallest pea!! My goodness.

Well, now we know why he said to put them in the smallest tank possible! They are probably no more than 4 weeks old! They are NOT fish that should be sold. Let alone shipped!!! They should still be sitting comfortably in a nursery tank! I can’t not believe that person is even allowed to continue to sell fish on there if that is what he is sending.

You absolutely can catch deformities on dime sized fish. But not really on fish smaller than peas. So ya….you can’t blame him for missing culls. But he brings that on himself by selling them when they are not even half the size or half the age they should be sold at. That makes me sick. It really does. I have never even seen such immature, underdeveloped angelfish be sold before. This has to be a record.

I am sorry this happened. Best of luck with the survivors.

 

Definitely go on aquabid and add to the bad reviews. Sorry you have experienced this. That is a crappy fish breeder to be sending out fish that small.

Is it too late to cancel your Severum order and get refunded? Or will you have to do that through PayPal?

 

Just a note for future Aquabid purchases: the time to check a person's feedback is BEFORE you place a bid/order!

Wow. That is small for shipping. Of course he sent extras, there's a fair chance you'll still lose a couple after you get them when they are that small. Good Luck with those. Hope you at least got the color variety you were after. At that size, I couldn't even be sure of what type of angels they are going to be.

 

I just though of something else!!!

So you said you ordered these fish OVER 3 weeks ago. I bet they weren't even born yet and that's why it took so long!!!! Like I said, that fish looks to be around 4 weeks old.

 

I just though of something else!!!

So you said you ordered these fish OVER 3 weeks ago. I bet they weren't even born yet and that's why it took so long!!!! Like I said, that fish looks to be around 4 weeks old.

Or maybe they are stunted? I had to grab a Canadian dime because the angels look quite developed with long fins for 4 weeks imo. Just the body is long and small like a newborn. Btw, looks like a Canadian dime is about about the same size which means those angel bodies are TINY! Can't believe that!!!! I'm going to check out aquabid to see if I can find this shady seller. So sorry this was your first angelfish experience, this is shocking and never in my life would I sell them that tiny and I've never ever seen them for sale that young before. What a pathetic dishonest seller. The worst I've seen so far.

It's not to say they won't turn into swans though. I haven't seen the reviews on deformed culls, but they do happen now and then. Again, that's why you never ship them that tiny! Also because they are very sensitive! But at least they made it through and look healthy enough, that's what counts. I still hope you get everything resolved with aquabid and PayPal though. That seller should be removed.

So just checked it out. Snap, that's the only seller that will ship to Canada. Of course Anyway looks like he sells platinum, platinum albino and koi. Did you receive what you ordered (strain-wise)?

These were my dime sized angels for comparison. Notice the body is round and the size of a dime, not including the fins? These ones had eroded fins when I got them from across the world, and they are standard fin, but you can tell from the body shape that your angels that you received are very TINY!!!!

 

Or maybe they are stunted? I had to grab a Canadian dime because the angels look quite developed with long fins for 4 weeks imo. Just the body is long and small like a newborn. Btw, looks like a Canadian dime is about about the same size which means those angel bodies are TINY! Can't believe that!!!! I'm going to check out aquabid to see if I can find this shady seller. So sorry this was your first angelfish experience, this is shocking and never in my life would I sell them that tiny and I've never ever seen them for sale that young before. What a pathetic dishonest seller. The worst I've seen so far.

It's not to say they won't turn into swans though. I haven't seen the reviews on deformed culls, but they do happen now and then. Again, that's why you never ship them that tiny! Also because they are very sensitive! But at least they made it through and look healthy enough, that's what counts. I still hope you get everything resolved with aquabid and PayPal though. That seller should be removed.

So just checked it out. Snap, that's the only seller that will ship to Canada. Of course Anyway looks like he sells platinum, platinum albino and koi. Did you receive what you ordered (strain-wise)?

These were my dime sized angels for comparison. Notice the body is round and the size of a dime, not including the fins? These ones had eroded fins when I got them from across the world, and they are standard fin, but you can tell from the body shape that your angels that you received are very TINY!!!!

I have had 4 week olds with that much fin development. With veil tails anyway. And like chromedome said….that fish is so small and undeveloped that I am hard pressed to even say what phenotype it is!

Even if 4 weeks isn’t accurate….lets say maybe 6 weeks. Either way, he sold these fish on aquabid “over 3 weeks ago”. Picture that fish 3 weeks ago! He was selling fish on aquabid that probably had only been free swimming a few days to a week. Not only do you not sell them as small as he did, but you also don’t list fish for sale 3-4 weeks before they are even ready. (or in his case, like 8-12 weeks before they were ready, but clearly not in his mind)

I agree, that with good care, they always have potential to blossom into very nice fish. But NO ONE should have to spend that much money to then have to care for underdeveloped fry that are weeks away from appropriate selling age!!

 

Horrible situation. I hope you get the issue resolved through PayPal and Aquabid.

Sounds like this is the normal M.O. for that seller. Basically they are a loser.

I agree with your comment about trading them in later and not wanting to breed them.

You may want to check out Dean Tweeddale, Cory and other fish YouTubers have done videos on his Angelfish breeding and fishroom. I'm sure he can get you quality stock to breed.

Thank you, I'll probably look into purchasing more in the next month or so. We're going on a cruise and to Disney World end of this month so I'll just wait and find an awesome breeder. I'm the person I definitely don't mind paying a little more for a good breeder.

Honestly the fish breeding is something I love but my 5 year old son is the one who REALLY likes angels. I have two in my community tank but they're not for breeding or anything. I started down this rabbit hole because I love breeding other cichlids and he loves angels and wants to "help"

He is excited about how tiny these are, he's going to be crushed if they don't make it. Ughhh

From just about every word you used to describe the sellers fish and their advice without saying who it is I'll shoot out you bought from J . G . !
Hope the angels do alright for you .. His sales have always said Aprox. dime size even when selling discus .
On the deformed fish how would a breeder know if he never sees any of his fish grow out ?? Selling them that small he has no clue ?
I breed from my own stock , rarely if ever sell fish less then 4 months old .. I know what my fish will look like .

You're exactly right. I'm not sure on the culls if they were older or not. Like the severms I purchased were "nickel to quarter" size so I mean you can start seeing some things by that point. No you won't know true quality but still.

Thus far I reported to Paypal, reported to Aquabid (haven't left feedback.....yet) - they'll be doing a full investigation on him including going back into his history looking for common trends, I may also push further because on top of this issue there was basically a scam to get me to purchase more (hints the severums) and then went back on his word once I committed to the purchase.

And lets put this in perspective folks…that is a DIME underneath that fish. A DIME! The fish is smaller than the smallest pea!! My goodness.

Well, now we know why he said to put them in the smallest tank possible! They are probably no more than 4 weeks old! They are NOT fish that should be sold. Let alone shipped!!! They should still be sitting comfortably in a nursery tank! I can’t not believe that person is even allowed to continue to sell fish on there if that is what he is sending.

You absolutely can catch deformities on dime sized fish. But not really on fish smaller than peas. So ya….you can’t blame him for missing culls. But he brings that on himself by selling them when they are not even half the size or half the age they should be sold at. That makes me sick. It really does. I have never even seen such immature, underdeveloped angelfish be sold before. This has to be a record.

I am sorry this happened. Best of luck with the survivors.

Thank you! I am really hoping the survive. I don't want to have to sit and watch fish die due to someone's negligence. I also have my 5 year old who is obsessed with angels now "in love" with these babies. So its like not only am I upset I'm likely going to have to go through this but he's going to be crushed.

I've reported him to Aquabid (haven't left feedback yet, this is a request for them to open a full investigation on the seller), Paypal, and I may push further and report to the state he's selling in because its a state you're required to have a license to sell fish and has laws for not selling pets under 8 weeks old (its a stretch to get that to cover fish but worth a try).

Definitely go on aquabid and add to the bad reviews. Sorry you have experienced this. That is a crappy fish breeder to be sending out fish that small.

Is it too late to cancel your Severum order and get refunded? Or will you have to do that through PayPal?

Since they haven't shipped yet I filed a dispute on that transaction and in the information mentioned my other order was not as described. So its now in his court. If he doesn't refund I'll escalate to paypal. I am pretty positive I'll get that money back....eventually. Long drawn out paypal disputes last up to like 180 days so unfortunately the money is tied up but at least he won't be getting my business for them.

I will be leaving negative feedback tonight. I was hoping to hear back regarding the Aquabid investigation that its open or something first.

Just a note for future Aquabid purchases: the time to check a person's feedback is BEFORE you place a bid/order!

Wow. That is small for shipping. Of course he sent extras, there's a fair chance you'll still lose a couple after you get them when they are that small. Good Luck with those. Hope you at least got the color variety you were after. At that size, I couldn't even be sure of what type of angels they are going to be.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20 at this point HAH! I mean honestly after this I am pretty turned off Aquabid for a while regardless. I will probably stick with finding a breeder and just doing a private sale.

Or maybe they are stunted? I had to grab a Canadian dime because the angels look quite developed with long fins for 4 weeks imo. Just the body is long and small like a newborn. Btw, looks like a Canadian dime is about about the same size which means those angel bodies are TINY! Can't believe that!!!! I'm going to check out aquabid to see if I can find this shady seller. So sorry this was your first angelfish experience, this is shocking and never in my life would I sell them that tiny and I've never ever seen them for sale that young before. What a pathetic dishonest seller. The worst I've seen so far.

It's not to say they won't turn into swans though. I haven't seen the reviews on deformed culls, but they do happen now and then. Again, that's why you never ship them that tiny! Also because they are very sensitive! But at least they made it through and look healthy enough, that's what counts. I still hope you get everything resolved with aquabid and PayPal though. That seller should be removed.

So just checked it out. Snap, that's the only seller that will ship to Canada. Of course Anyway looks like he sells platinum, platinum albino and koi. Did you receive what you ordered (strain-wise)?

These were my dime sized angels for comparison. Notice the body is round and the size of a dime, not including the fins? These ones had eroded fins when I got them from across the world, and they are standard fin, but you can tell from the body shape that your angels that you received are very TINY!!!!

They're supposed to be veiltail platinum albinos. He threw in two of the dragon koi which are the largest he sent and are "almost" dime size. Still really small compared to yours haha.

I am definitely going to try to keep them alive and growing. I hope they all turn into beautiful swans. I'm not sure if I'll breed them still just because of the questionable breeder they came from but they can make some people very happy for their tanks. I just don't know if I want to start breeding on the wrong foot. I'd rather get some more quality stock and support a good current breeder!

 

Yeah I agree, wasn't trying to defend the seller, i'm appalled and angry. Absolutely not acceptable. Just trying to look at the positive side since you have the fish now. Usually we fall in love with our angels anyway. But I sure hope you get that money back! And anyone else that bought from him. Like I said, that seller should be removed!

If I had the opportunity to buy from reputable sellers in the US, I would absolutely do so! So agree that using them as breeders is probably not a good idea. Especially if you can start on the right foot. Breeders like Biz have already worked hard to build herself a nice stock. It takes time and effort, so a lot easier if you get what you want from the getgo.

 

Just as another reference....this is a 5 week old. And it is bigger than the one you posted. And still many weeks away from selling.




Blue albinos are pretty rare. I doubt they are platinum albinos. But the one pictured is definitely albino anyway.

 

Yeah I agree, wasn't trying to defend the seller, i'm appalled and angry. Absolutely not acceptable. Just trying to look at the positive side since you have the fish now. Usually we fall in love with our angels anyway. But I sure hope you get that money back! And anyone else that bought from him. Like I said, that seller should be decided removed!

But if I had the opportunity to buy from reputable sellers in the US, I would absolutely do so!

I am a firm believer in everything happens for a reason. I am taking the whole experience as a learning experience. One amazing thing that has come of this is all the support from the angel breeding community. I have learned so much so quickly thanks to people taking time out of their day to help with our situation!

I can't wait to work with one of them in the future for fish!

Just as another reference....this is a 5 week old. And it is bigger than the one you posted. And still many weeks away from selling.

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Blue albinos are pretty rare. I doubt they are platinum albinos. But the one pictured is definitely albino anyway.

This may be a very newbie question but how will I know if they're platinum albinos? Or when I guess? I am sure I won't know for a while. I thought before the difference in platinum albinos and regular albinos was the platinums had the faint stripes and developed a little blue on the fins over time. Is that true or am I off completely?

 

This may be a very newbie question but how will I know if they're platinum albinos? Or when I guess? I am sure I won't know for a while. I thought before the difference in platinum albinos and regular albinos was the platinums had the faint stripes and developed a little blue on the fins over time. Is that true or am I off completely?

Platinum angelfish carry two blue genes and two gold genes. And then add the albino genes and you have platinum albinos. In which case you would have ZERO stripes because of the two gold genes. All of the ones he has posted show the faint off-white stripes. So they cannot be platinum. Now, they may have blue genes....but that would make them Philippine blue abinos. Not platinum albinos.

I do think that many of the adults he has posted as examples do carry two blue genes. Making them Philippine blue albinos. However, in the video he posted of what looks to be the parents, one of them is much too yellow to be a blue albino. So if those are the parents, I would guess the babies are heterozygous blues. Which means they are not blues. It means they just carry one recessive blue gene.

Its amazing how much POSITIVE feedback he has! Lots of negatives....but the majority are positive. That shocks me to be honest. I also noticed that most of his negatives were from 2017 and 2018. Implying that maybe he was getting his act together??? But not based on what you received. And the poor communication and the delay in receiving the fish. But due to the high number of positive feedback, along with the majority of negatives being 2017 and 2018......if I was in the market, I may have gone through with it even after seeing the reviews for that reason. If that makes you feel any better about forgetting to check reviews first.

I can say for sure they are not platinum albinos since there are stripes on the adults. And the baby you posted does not look like it carries two blues genes either. But its very early to tell.

 

Platinum angelfish carry two blue genes and two gold genes. And then add the albino genes and you have platinum albinos. In which case you would have ZERO stripes because of the two gold genes. All of the ones he has posted show the faint off-white stripes. So they cannot be platinum. Now, they may have blue genes....but that would make them Philippine blue abinos. Not platinum albinos.

I do think that many of the adults he has posted as examples do carry two blue genes. Making them Philippine blue albinos. However, in the video he posted of what looks to be the parents, one of them is much too yellow to be a blue albino. So if those are the parents, I would guess the babies are heterozygous blues. Which means they are not blues. It means they just carry one recessive blue gene.

Its amazing how much POSITIVE feedback he has! Lots of negatives....but the majority are positive. That shocks me to be honest. I also noticed that most of his negatives were from 2017 and 2018. Implying that maybe he was getting his act together??? But not based on what you received. And the poor communication and the delay in receiving the fish. But due to the high number of positive feedback, along with the majority of negatives being 2017 and 2018......if I was in the market, I may have gone through with it even after seeing the reviews for that reason. If that makes you feel any better about forgetting to check reviews first.

I can say for sure they are not platinum albinos since there are stripes on the adults. And the baby you posted does not look like it carries two blues genes either. But its very early to tell.

Okay thank you! All of the babies do have visible stripes so I guess that solves that mystery

I have no idea on the feedback. I mean maybe he over sold before the holiday and didn't have enough of the right size to sell me. Rather than asking me if I was okay with waiting for these to get bigger (which honestly I probably would have been fine waiting) he shoved them in the box and hoped for the best that I wouldn't say anything.

 

Just having another look (now that I know they are supposed to be platinum albino), those are not blue. Possibly het blue as Biz pointed out, but not two more genes because there wouldn't be that much gold.

Some of my platinums had a goldish crown, but no stripes for gold, so idk what's going on with that male fish parent, there's an awful lot of gold.....

Platinum with a gold crown and one without.

 

Just having another look (now that I know they are supposed to be platinum albino), those are not blue. Possibly het blue as Biz pointed out, but not two more genes because there wouldn't be that much gold.

Some of my platinums had a goldish crown, but no stripes for gold, so idk what's going on with that male fish parent, there's an awful lot of gold.....

Platinum with a gold crown and one without.

Good to know, any idea what these guys will likely look like as an adult? I keep trying to google it without much success

 

Good to know, any idea what these guys will likely look like as an adult? I keep trying to google it without much success

Just guessing, but I think they will look like the parents with the gold crown. I really can't tell if the angel parents with the gold crowns are actually platinum because the lighting is different than I'm used to. Looks like maybe 2 pairs of parents. I'm not sure about the yellow dorsal fin though, maybe it's the pic lighting, but usually there is not as much gold for platinum angels and blue fins (they are really young though). I hope they are platinum and not gold albino. Nothing wrong with gold albino, just shouldn't be sold for the price of a platinum, so I thought i'd let you know. If they are blue albino, (and not platinum albino) the wild stripes will be lighter than the body instead of grey/black.



I can't seem to find a definite platinum albino, but basically they would look like platinum but with red eyes. Here's a , but platinum albino will look similar. I only know it's blue ghost because the description says so.

 

UPDATE: tried feeding them a little this evening. I took a hammer to pellets to get a fine powder.

A couple of them acted slightly interested. Saw maybe 3 eat 1 bite.

Just guessing, but I think they will look like the parents with the gold crown. I really can't tell if the angel parents with the gold crowns are actually platinum because the lighting is different than I'm used to. Looks like maybe 2 pairs of parents. I'm not sure about the yellow dorsal fin though, maybe it's the pic lighting, but usually there is not as much gold for platinum angels and blue fins (they are really young though). I hope they are platinum and not gold albino. Nothing wrong with gold albino, just shouldn't be sold for the price of a platinum, so I thought i'd let you know. If they are blue albino, (and not platinum albino) the wild stripes will be lighter than the body instead of grey/black.



I can't seem to find a definite platinum albino, but basically they would look like platinum but with red eyes. Here's a , but platinum albino will look similar. I only know it's blue ghost because the description says so.

Okay perfect that makes so much sense! I do love the photo of the blue albino (and the blue ghost) you posted. I guess time will really tell with these guys.

 

Actually that's a great sign they were interested in crushed pellets. It's difficult to wean them over, they can be picky lol! Keep trying the foods you want to feed them. But some frozen BBS would still be good for them at this point since they are so small. I would look at the 0.5mm NLS grow pellets since they are larger than fry. It's what I feed my baby fish as a staple mixed with other stuff to mix it up. Moderation is the key (my dad always said). Moderation and variety.

 

Actually that's a great sign they were interested in crushed pellets. It's difficult to wean them over, they can be picky lol! Keep trying the foods you want to feed them. But some frozen BBS would still be good for them at this point since they are so small. I would look at the 0.5mm NLS grow pellets since they are larger than fry. It's what I feed my baby fish as a staple mixed with other stuff to mix it up. Moderation is the key (my dad always said). Moderation and variety.

These are NLS pellets I feed to my other fish just crushed with a hammer LOL! I'm going to another store to find the baby brine.

All of the 9 remaining are still alive as of this morning so I'm celebrating the little victory. I know we have a long way to go but I'm just going to stick to focusing day by day!

 

Day by day. That's my philosophy. Don't get ahead myself with catastrophic thoughts. The 'Grow' pellets have a higher protein content for growing fish, but just slightly. They are nice for smaller young fish too. They might still be too large for your babies, but in a month or so, they should be taking them whole I'm guessing.

So glad they are doing well! That's what counts in the long run. Still hope you get a refund or partial for the teeny tiny size and possibly wrong genotype fish. But if you rehome them (and don't use them as breeders) when they have grown, I bet you could make a pretty penny

 

Golden pearls are a good alternative to bbs. They don't sink as fast as pellets and float around kinda like bbs as well as being about the same size if you get 100 microns. 50 microns is like a fine powder for tiny newly hatched fry.