Sunset Thicklip Gouramis or Honey Gouramis?

Hello

I’m new to the site and have recently gotten back into fishkeeping after a very long hiatus. I have 2 20 gallon rimless heavily planted tanks and 2 10 gallon rimless heavily planted tanks. I’ve kept quite a few different species over the years but didn’t have a ton of familiarity with anabantoids other than bettas, until I recently purchased a pair of what were labeled as both Honey Gouramis and Thicklip Gouramis for one of my 20 gallons. This is Petco folks ‍♀️ They literally had 2 little tags, one on top of the other with totally conflicting info. I tried to confirm which they actually were to no avail. I knew that I should go with a male/female pair to be on the safe side, but they were so young at that point and the employees couldn’t provide any further assistance sexing them so I just kept my fingers crossed. Like many people, I get attached and don’t ever want to have to return fish, but will do it as a last resort out of necessity for safety/health purposes. As time went on the pair proved to be what I am 95% sure are a male/female combo. He almost immediately began darkening up in color and I could see his find start to become more pointed/elongated. She stayed a light silver honey color and has rounded, shorter fins. It wasn’t long after that the supposed male started chasing the supposed female pretty regularly, which seemed odd to me if they were in fact real honeys. I know Thicklips can be slightly more aggressive than true honeys. I kept an eye on it and after 3 days of this and the female hiding constantly I decided to move the male to an established 10 gallon with a small group of lemon tetra. He immediately colored down but seemed very comfortable in his new space, happily and calmly exploring and settling in. I went back to petco to see if I could locate another female to add in hopes she’d level things out and I could put the male back in. Of course the new group of honey/thicklips (labeling was the same ☹️) were even smaller and harder to distinguish gender wise. I went with what I thought could be a female. I added her to my 20 with my female and they were just fine from the gate. Curious but gentle with each other. My female will sometimes give chase for about 2 seconds if there’s food around, but for the most part they’re fine. However, it does now appear the new addition could be a male. I knew this could happen and Petco said to bring him back if this was the case. I know individual personality plays into compatibility so I want to see how things go with these two before I make any decisions. Just wanted to give background and see if anyone can confirm the actual type of fish I have and give any advice going forward with my slight predicament.

20 gallon standard
heavily planted
Ammonia - 0
Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
PH - 6.5

First photo is of my original “male” now in 10 gallon with 5 lemon tetra

Second photo is new male/female?

Third is original “female”


Thanks in advance!

 

Alright, so I am not an expert by any means but here are my thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, but I'll start the discussion and let others chime in. I'm a bit conflicted as to whether or not they are sunset thick lipped gouramis or honey gouramies. The lips don't appear to be quite as elongated in the photos as a thick lipped gourami would have, and the fins look like those of a honey, but their coloring looks more like that of sunsets. Less yellow and orange and more yellow and silver, particularly the last fish. Since you just got them they are almost certain to be not fully grown, but are any of them more than 2 inches? That would make them something other than a honey. Let's see if someone else has an idea.

As far as gender, the first photo looks like it's definitely a male to me based on the long pointed dorsal fin. Looking at the other pictures...

Call me crazy, but I think they're all males. The second and third fish also seem to have a dorsal fin that is more elongated than a female's would be. After looking around a bit online, it seems to me that female dorsal fins usually follow a C shaped curve in the same direction all the way along the back, whereas the male's almost make a S shape and rise a little before ending in a point. The analfins also look too be too extended to be females.

Female (honey) gouramis also have a banded stripe from head to tail, particularly when in the presence of a male or breeding. They are quite bland and have basically no yellow coloring on them. When the first and third fish were together, did the third one show any kind of stripe on her?

My third potential piece of evidence is that female gourami are very hard to find in general and are not usually sold by stores, especially a large chain store that wouldn't specialize in anything unique. They sell the fish that have the color because those are the ones people buy.

Now - everyone prove me wrong! Haha.

 

1 male and two female Thicklips (or hybrids which are still calles Thicklipped)

 

Alright, so I am not an expert by any means but here are my thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, but I'll start the discussion and let others chime in. I'm a bit conflicted as to whether or not they are sunset thick lipped gouramis or honey gouramies. The lips don't appear to be quite as elongated in the photos as a thick lipped gourami would have, and the fins look like those of a honey, but their coloring looks more like that of sunsets. Less yellow and orange and more yellow and silver, particularly the last fish. Since you just got them they are almost certain to be not fully grown, but are any of them more than 2 inches? That would make them something other than a honey. Let's see if someone else has an idea.

As far as gender, the first photo looks like it's definitely a male to me based on the long pointed dorsal fin. Looking at the other pictures...

Call me crazy, but I think they're all males. The second and third fish also seem to have a dorsal fin that is more elongated than a female's would be. After looking around a bit online, it seems to me that female dorsal fins usually follow a C shaped curve in the same direction all the way along the back, whereas the male's almost make a S shape and rise a little before ending in a point. The analfins also look too be too extended to be females.

Female (honey) gouramis also have a banded stripe from head to tail, particularly when in the presence of a male or breeding. They are quite bland and have basically no yellow coloring on them. When the first and third fish were together, did the third one show any kind of stripe on her?

My third potential piece of evidence is that female gourami are very hard to find in general and are not usually sold by stores, especially a large chain store that wouldn't specialize in anything unique. They sell the fish that have the color because those are the ones people buy.

Now - everyone prove me wrong! Haha.

Thanks so much for weighing in! I truly appreciate any feedback. I also went to that space of thinking “geez, are they all male?” Just based on the fact that there are so many conflicting characteristics. My alleged female had never shown a bit of color other than that very muted silver/yellow. I wish I had a pic of the original pair together because the difference in finnage is pretty apparent, but I know even that can be an iffy way to come to conclusions on gender in some cases. As of right now my “female” and newer “male/female” are getting along well. They are all definitely still juveniles, my original pair are both around 1.5” currently, perhaps a little larger and the baby is just that, a baby aroun an inch. This may be why it’s getting along with my larger “girl” so well right now. I know it’s next to impossible to find female ANYTHING in the pet stores, this really bums me out as I’m someone who actually enjoys the dimorphism in fish and love to have balanced/happy pairs when applicable. I was pretty shocked when she grew a bit and all the signs seemed to point towards female. We shall see!

1 male and two female Thicklips (or hybrids which are still calles Thicklipped)

Thank you! I was reading about possible hybrids and crosses within these species and was wondering also if that may be why the “definitive” signs of gender weren’t quite so definitive here!

 

The dorsal finnes make the difference to me.

 

100% all three of them are thick-lippeds. No question there.

The first and darkest, auburn-like one is a male, the latter two are females, so I completely agree with DoubleDutch.

Alright, so I am not an expert by any means but here are my thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, but I'll start the discussion and let others chime in. I'm a bit conflicted as to whether or not they are sunset thick lipped gouramis or honey gouramies. The lips don't appear to be quite as elongated in the photos as a thick lipped gourami would have, and the fins look like those of a honey, but their coloring looks more like that of sunsets. Less yellow and orange and more yellow and silver, particularly the last fish. Since you just got them they are almost certain to be not fully grown, but are any of them more than 2 inches? That would make them something other than a honey. Let's see if someone else has an idea.

As far as gender, the first photo looks like it's definitely a male to me based on the long pointed dorsal fin. Looking at the other pictures...

Call me crazy, but I think they're all males. The second and third fish also seem to have a dorsal fin that is more elongated than a female's would be. After looking around a bit online, it seems to me that female dorsal fins usually follow a C shaped curve in the same direction all the way along the back, whereas the male's almost make a S shape and rise a little before ending in a point. The analfins also look too be too extended to be females.

Female (honey) gouramis also have a banded stripe from head to tail, particularly when in the presence of a male or breeding. They are quite bland and have basically no yellow coloring on them. When the first and third fish were together, did the third one show any kind of stripe on her?

My third potential piece of evidence is that female gourami are very hard to find in general and are not usually sold by stores, especially a large chain store that wouldn't specialize in anything unique. They sell the fish that have the color because those are the ones people buy.

Now - everyone prove me wrong! Haha.

Thanks so much for weighing in! I truly appreciate any feedback. I also went to that space of thinking “geez, are they all male?” Just based on the fact that there are so many conflicting characteristics. My alleged female had never shown a bit of color other than that very muted silver/yellow. I wish I had a pic of the original pair together because the difference in finnage is pretty apparent, but I know even that can be an iffy way to come to conclusions on gender in some cases. As of right now my “female” and newer “male/female” are getting along well. They are all definitely still juveniles, my original pair are both around 1.5” currently, perhaps a little larger and the baby is just that, a baby aroun an inch. This may be why it’s getting along with my larger “girl” so well right now. I know it’s next to impossible to find female ANYTHING in the pet stores, this really bums me out as I’m someone who actually enjoys the dimorphism in fish and love to have balanced/happy pairs when applicable. I was pretty shocked when she grew a bit and all the signs seemed to point towards female. We shall see!



Thank you! I was reading about possible hybrids and crosses within these species and was wondering also if that may be why the “definitive” signs of gender weren’t quite so definitive here!

So a bit of info based on these questions/confusion.

Honeys, Dwarfs and Thick-lippeds are all different species of the same genus, Trichogaster, which sometimes causes confusion as they (especially the honey and thick-lippeds) look very similar when young.
Dwarfs have a different body type and different colour strains and as such as usually simpler to tell apart.

Honey gourami can be found as wildcolours, which seems to be a bit uncommon in the U.S., but somehow this colouration is often the basis on how websites tell you to tell genders apart. Which is very confusing because the tell-tale signs in wildcolours are (largely) absent in the most common commercial Honey colour strain, the golden or sunset honey (they are gradients of the same strain rather than really two different colours). That is to say, the story about the lateral stripe and silver base colour in females is true of wildcolour honeys, but it doesn't go for golden/sunset honeys. In these, the stripe is at best faintly visible and in many females has disappeared completely. Similarly, wildcolour males are often faded/pale when subdominant or outside of their breeding dress, and then colour up a dark brownish orange with yellow rI'm on the fins and a black throat when in breeding dress.
Golden or sunset honeys have a golden or yellow base colour, which may be more or less faded depending on genetics or stress, with females having yellow fins with orange rims on the anal and dorsal, whereas males have orange fins with yellow edges on the anal and dorsal. Some golden/sunset males still show the black throat when in a breeding mood, but then confusingly so do some golden/sunset females. So this is a poor way to tell. The fin rI'm colour is the most reliable in my experience, aside from shining a light behind them and looking for ovaries.

Thick-lippeds occur in a variety of commercial colour strains. The wildcolour version seems to be exceedingly rare in the U.S. and I don't think I've ever seen an American on here with a wildcolour thick-lipped. They look very similar to Banded gourami, you can look that up if you want.
The most common colour strains for thick-lippeds are golden/yellow and red/sunset. Both of these are often sold as Honey Gourami. If see a very red or "flame" honey gourami, 95% of the time it is actually a thick-lipped. I'm not even sure if there are any truly red honey gourami in existence.
The golden strain can be told apart from honeys when young by its distribution and sometimes body shape. The golden thick-lipped is much paler than a well-bred golden honey. A mix of wildcolour silver (female honey) and a golden strain honey may look similar to the golden thick-lipped, but a honey gourami will have the pale part focused in the middle of its body with the fins still coloured whereas a thick-lipped will have the pale area focused either in the front or back half of its body with the colour appearing as a gradient on both fins and body.
Moreover, in general thick-lippeds look more rounded and bulky, honeys are very sleek and slender.

Finally, a dead giveaway, such as on your second photo is dark spotting/staining. Thick-lippeds turn increasingly dark as they grow older and often the brightly coloured versions turn into a ruddy brown colour as they reach their full size (which is indeed much larger than an adult honey, but this doesn't help when the fish are young). Honey gourami do not have this effect at all, so if you see this appear, your fish is a thick-lipped for sure.


As for the genders, the dorsals in the pictures are dead giveaways.

 

100% all three of them are thick-lippeds. No question there.

The first and darkest, auburn-like one is a male, the latter two are females, so I completely agree with DoubleDutch.



So a bit of info based on these questions/confusion.

Honeys, Dwarfs and Thick-lippeds are all different species of the same genus, Trichogaster, which sometimes causes confusion as they (especially the honey and thick-lippeds) look very similar when young.
Dwarfs have a different body type and different colour strains and as such as usually simpler to tell apart.

Honey gourami can be found as wildcolours, which seems to be a bit uncommon in the U.S., but somehow this colouration is often the basis on how websites tell you to tell genders apart. Which is very confusing because the tell-tale signs in wildcolours are (largely) absent in the most common commercial Honey colour strain, the golden or sunset honey (they are gradients of the same strain rather than really two different colours). That is to say, the story about the lateral stripe and silver base colour in females is true of wildcolour honeys, but it doesn't go for golden/sunset honeys. In these, the stripe is at best faintly visible and in many females has disappeared completely. Similarly, wildcolour males are often faded/pale when subdominant or outside of their breeding dress, and then colour up a dark brownish orange with yellow rI'm on the fins and a black throat when in breeding dress.
Golden or sunset honeys have a golden or yellow base colour, which may be more or less faded depending on genetics or stress, with females having yellow fins with orange rims on the anal and dorsal, whereas males have orange fins with yellow edges on the anal and dorsal. Some golden/sunset males still show the black throat when in a breeding mood, but then confusingly so do some golden/sunset females. So this is a poor way to tell. The fin rI'm colour is the most reliable in my experience, aside from shining a light behind them and looking for ovaries.

Thick-lippeds occur in a variety of commercial colour strains. The wildcolour version seems to be exceedingly rare in the U.S. and I don't think I've ever seen an American on here with a wildcolour thick-lipped. They look very similar to Banded gourami, you can look that up if you want.
The most common colour strains for thick-lippeds are golden/yellow and red/sunset. Both of these are often sold as Honey Gourami. If see a very red or "flame" honey gourami, 95% of the time it is actually a thick-lipped. I'm not even sure if there are any truly red honey gourami in existence.
The golden strain can be told apart from honeys when young by its distribution and sometimes body shape. The golden thick-lipped is much paler than a well-bred golden honey. A mix of wildcolour silver (female honey) and a golden strain honey may look similar to the golden thick-lipped, but a honey gourami will have the pale part focused in the middle of its body with the fins still coloured whereas a thick-lipped will have the pale area focused either in the front or back half of its body with the colour appearing as a gradient on both fins and body.
Moreover, in general thick-lippeds look more rounded and bulky, honeys are very sleek and slender.

Finally, a dead giveaway, such as on your second photo is dark spotting/staining. Thick-lippeds turn increasingly dark as they grow older and often the brightly coloured versions turn into a ruddy brown colour as they reach their full size (which is indeed much larger than an adult honey, but this doesn't help when the fish are young). Honey gourami do not have this effect at all, so if you see this appear, your fish is a thick-lipped for sure.


As for the genders, the dorsals in the pictures are dead giveaways.

Wow. This was incredibly helpful! Thanks so very much! I’ve been reading so much literature about them the last couple of months and so many things sound contradictory that I have trouble trusting 99% of those random pet-info sites. I’m someone who does their due diligence in regards to making sure my pets have everything they need to be healthy, comfortable and happy, so I truly appreciate real advice from people who know and care That being said, what I’ve taken away from your post is that obviously they are thick lips, excellent to know! Also, I’m aware that my first photo is 100% a male, this was probably the only thing I was certain about going into this. The 3rd pic of one of my original pair is female, but the second pic of my newest edition still has me a bit confused. The finnage at this point is far more rounded, but you mentioned the tell tale sign being the fin rI'm color and I 100% see the yellow rimmed fin that matches my for certain males indentically. So this would indicate male, correct?

 

Wow. This was incredibly helpful! Thanks so very much! I’ve been reading so much literature about them the last couple of months and so many things sound contradictory that I have trouble trusting 99% of those random pet-info sites. I’m someone who does their due diligence in regards to making sure my pets have everything they need to be healthy, comfortable and happy, so I truly appreciate real advice from people who know and care That being said, what I’ve taken away from your post is that obviously they are thick lips, excellent to know! Also, I’m aware that my first photo is 100% a male, this was probably the only thing I was certain about going into this. The 3rd pic of one of my original pair is female, but the second pic of my newest edition still has me a bit confused. The finnage at this point is far more rounded, but you mentioned the tell tale sign being the fin rI'm color and I 100% see the yellow rimmed fin that matches my for certain males indentically. So this would indicate male, correct?

Yes, the problem with many of the pet sites is that they copy-paste from other sources without truly comprehending the content. So if there is a mistake somewhere, either in the original source or their understanding of what that particular is talking about, you get this kind of misconception that gets perpetuated over and over. Hence why sites like this are great places to perhaps confirm things that you suspect but aren't sure of, since you will get answers based on personal experience as well as theoretical knowledge. But seems like you already have that all figured out

The rI'm colour thing only applies to golden/sunset strain honey gourami (and to wildcolours but it is slightly different there). It is possible it may apply to the specific strain of thick-lipped you have in that middle picture (because of their related genetics), but I don't know about it. So I wouldn't use that as a reliable way to sex thick-lipped gourami. (Edit: just to add for clarification, in honeys all the fish have either a yellow or an orange rim, the male and females literally have inverted colours. Whereas on your thick-lippeds I see a yellow rI'm in the first and second photo and no rI'm at all in the third. Which would make me guess that the presence of that rI'm is not gender-related but just a matter of colour spread)
I'm judging the gender of the second picture by the dorsal (rounded and not elongated) as well as the body shape which is bulkier and deeper in the stomach area (indicating female). I'm not 100% confident in the judgment of that particular fish though (as opposed to the others), maybe 80% sure it is a female.

 

Ooook, gotcha. It would def seem as though I have two females then. I’m toying with the idea of putting the male back in with the two (hopefully) females and see how he behaves with the new dynamic. I know that they CAN be kept alone but I’m not convinced that’s ideal, although he seems just fine with the tetras in the 10. Given the fact that he is a thick lipped, I want him in a bigger tank long term, but I think the 10 should be ok for now. Do you have any idea about aggression levels with these guys? I’ve obviously experienced a good deal with my original pair, with the male pretty relentlessly chasing the female, never did see a bubble nest though. Really hoping another female will make it a workable, safe situation.

 

Ooook, gotcha. It would def seem as though I have two females then. I’m toying with the idea of putting the male back in with the two (hopefully) females and see how he behaves with the new dynamic. I know that they CAN be kept alone but I’m not convinced that’s ideal, although he seems just fine with the tetras in the 10. Given the fact that he is a thick lipped, I want him in a bigger tank long term, but I think the 10 should be ok for now. Do you have any idea about aggression levels with these guys? I’ve obviously experienced a good deal with my original pair, with the male pretty relentlessly chasing the female, never did see a bubble nest though. Really hoping another female will make it a workable, safe situation.

From my experience they aren't to different from Honeys, they may squabble but nothing really comes of it. I currently have a group of 5 in a 22 gallon and they get on just fine but they have some growing to do