Such a thing as "too much" light for plants? (In terms of intensity)

cmid21

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Hello everyone,

I was interested in hearing everyone's opinion regarding "too much" light? When researching on general curiosity, I found many sources split on this topic. Some argue there isn't ever an issue with too much light (obviously to a reasonable extent within normal aquarium lighting parameters) and that low light plants are categorized as such due to their ability to grow in low light as opposed to their inability to grow in medium/high light. I have also read the contrary, where low light plants will perish in higher levels of light. I have also read anywhere in between. What is your take?

And to be more specific, if you care to be:
My research was spurred by Anubias plants. At the maximum, I have my lighting running around 53-58 PAR at the substrate level for a couple of hours. (one of those programable 24/7 lighting systems) I know Anubias plants don't necessarily require anything above low light, but will this melt the plant? What if the leaves are close to the surface, what would be your anticipations?
 

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10-20 lumen (0.25 to 0.5 watts) per litre is adequate. For "Medium" plants, recommended is 20-40 lumen (0.5 to 1 watts) per litre, while "Advanced" plants require more than 40 lumens (1 watt) per litre.
 

Amazoniantanklvr

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Sprinkle said:
10-20 lumen (0.25 to 0.5 watts) per litre is adequate. For "Medium" plants, recommended is 20-40 lumen (0.5 to 1 watts) per litre, while "Advanced" plants require more than 40 lumens (1 watt) per litre.
Good to know, sprinkle. I guess I will be getting a mid light light.
 

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It has been my experience that anubias getting too much light will not be happy. The leaves will turn yellow, then start getting brown/rotted areas.
However, there are other 'low light' plants that seem to be happy getting more light (ie my java ferns) so I think it depends on which plant it is :)
 

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Algonquin said:
It has been my experience that anubias getting too much light will not be happy. The leaves will turn yellow, then start getting brown/rotted areas.
However, there are other 'low light' plants that seem to be happy getting more light (ie my java ferns) so I think it depends on which plant it is :)
My anubias is in 7watt light tank and its fine and happy floating with other plants now.
 

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With lights and specific plants, It's more about spectrum specific intensity (red,blue,green). Lights are often measured in Kelvins , lumens or wattage which don't specify how much of each colour is being emitted. Nanometers is how this is measured and that's really what's going to determine how well or badly a plant with specific light requirements will do ( Green light is useless to aquatic plants so disregard that one)
But for example , Mid day sun light which peaks in the blue spectrum at 475nm and in the red spectrum between 650-675 nm is the highest light. High light requiring plants will prefer as close to that as you can replicate. But lower light level plants will surely die under such exposure. Plant species photosynthesise at different rates because they grow under different natural conditions. And that's why they have high, med, low light requirements. Lower light level plants will burn and melt under higher powered red and blue spectrum lights and high light plants will become weak and deficient without enough blue and red spectrum emittian. So it's more about having control of how much red and blue light you have running. And knowing whereabouts on that spectrum your white lights are too.
So in short yes, there is such thing as too much light, but it depends on what light.

I'm not the best at explaining things , so I do apologise if I didn't word it very well, but I hope that somewhat clears up the confusion :)
 
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cmid21

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Algonquin said:
It has been my experience that anubias getting too much light will not be happy. The leaves will turn yellow, then start getting brown/rotted areas.
However, there are other 'low light' plants that seem to be happy getting more light (ie my java ferns) so I think it depends on which plant it is :)
That is what I thought might be the case. Why can't anything be definite. :banghead: So many variables with fish tanks!:D

Falena said:
With lights and specific plants, It's more about spectrum specific intensity (red,blue,green). Lights are often measured in Kelvins , lumens or wattage which don't specify how much of each colour is being emitted. Nanometers is how this is measured and that's really what's going to determine how well or badly a plant with specific light requirements will do ( Green light is useless to plants so disregard that one)
But for example , Mid day sun light which peaks in the blue spectrum at 475nm and in the red spectrum between 650-675 nm is the highest light. High light requiring plants will prefer as close to that as you can replicate. But lower light level plants will surely die under such exposure. Plant species photosynthesise at different rates because they grow under different natural conditions. And that's why they have high, med, low light requirements. Lower light level plants will burn and melt under higher powered red and blue spectrum lights and high light plants will become weak and deficient without enough blue and red spectrum emittian. So it's more about having control of how much red and blue light you have running. And knowing whereabouts on that spectrum your white lights are too.
So in short yes, there is such thing as too much light, but it depends on what light.

I'm not the best at explaining things , so I do apologise if I didn't word it very well, but I hope that somewhat clears up the confusion :)
This seems well explained to me! No wonder why people just buy a wide array of plants and just experiment with want works. Some will die some will thrive. I always hated the laissez-faire approach, but understand why it happens. Too many variables to measure. Is there even a reasonably priced device to measure the nm of your lights?

Falena , if you don't mind, are you able to provide a resource (or I guess list here on the post) for the ideal nm for each pertinent part of the visible spectrum for each light "category" (low med high)? Obviously these will bleed into one another, but just in general terms? I find this pretty interesting.
 

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You need to look at it like a garden some plants will tolerate a dark room but will do better in bright indirect light yet will die in full outdoor light. Finding the right plant for the conditions you can provide is the key.
 
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cmid21

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Another random thought: (please feel free to throw in random thoughts, don't worry about side-tracking this discussion. I find everyone's input interesting)

Why does everyone emphasize PAR as the go-to rating? (μmol/s; μmol/m²/s) Instead of nm, which no one ever seems to talk about and isn't really provided by light manufacturers.
 

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cmid21 said:
This seems well explained to me! No wonder why people just buy a wide array of plants and just experiment with want works. Some will die some will thrive. I always hated the laissez-faire approach, but understand why it happens. Too many variables to measure. Is there even a reasonably priced device to measure the nm of your lights?

Falena , if you don't mind, are you able to provide a resource (or I guess list here on the post) for the ideal nm for each pertinent part of the visible spectrum for each light "category" (low med high)? Obviously these will bleed into one another, but just in general terms? I find this pretty interesting.
I'm not sure exactly how to measure nanometers, unfortunately. I think this likely requires a lab.
I Only really have a basic understanding of lighting requirements in comparison to many plant enthusiasts.
I don't know why manufacturers don't display clear spectral data on bulbs or strips in nm either. It would make life a lot easier. Its probably a competitor thing.
For example, you can have a bunch of 6500 kelvin lights that all put out different amounts of each colour. Some even have green, which is solely for our viewing pleasure because it's very bright, and looks amazing.
But its not at all beneficial to the plants. That's why we all have such mixed results with the same powered light.
Some lights have a colour spectral graph on the box, but that seems to be as much data we are provided with.

Personally I use light timing and plant placement in my tanks. I have 3 separate LED strips. A neutral white strip that's on for 11 hours, a blue that's on for 8 hours and a red that's on for 4 hours. I try to have higher light requiring plants canopy the lower light plants , or I shadow lower light requiring plants with hard scape to protect them from the intensity.
Blue spectrum promotes leaf growth and red light legthens stems and enhances colour. Green plants seem to prefer blue, and red plants prefer red to retain colour. Red plants seem to turn green without enough red light. But some of my plants don't tolerate the red for a very long period. So it really is experimental and very specific to the plants you want and environment you create. Just like Littlebudda's excellent example!

I've got links to some amazing articles, that explain Kelvins, watts, nm and par with examples of ideal nm conditions for specific plants and corals. But they're on other forums and I'm not sure if it's ok to post them?
 
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cmid21

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Falena said:
I've got links to some amazing articles, that explain Kelvins, watts, nm and par with examples of ideal nm conditions for specific plants and corals. But they're on other forums and I'm not sure if it's ok to post them?
I see a lot of links around the forum and I would assume that links were alright according to forum rules, but I am not sure. I don't want to break the rules here. Maybe a moderator will step in and let us know, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who would find this information helpful/interesting.

Either way, I would very much be interested in any links or resources that you could provide regarding this topic. Maybe via private message?
 

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cmid21 said:
I see a lot of links around the forum and I would assume that links were alright according to forum rules, but I am not sure. I don't want to break the rules here. Maybe a moderator will step in and let us know, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who would find this information helpful/interesting.

Either way, I would very much be interested in any links or resources that you could provide regarding this topic. Maybe via private message?
Hi, most links to other sites are fine as long as they have some help/information to add to a discussion, some links though are not allowed as explained in Fishlore rule #5 FishLore Forum Rules | Forum Announcements/Suggestions 227
 
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cmid21

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Thanks Coradee for the official ruling! :happy:

*Also thank you for everything that you do here! What a great resource fishlore provides to many people.
 

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cmid21 said:
I see a lot of links around the forum and I would assume that links were alright according to forum rules, but I am not sure. I don't want to break the rules here. Maybe a moderator will step in and let us know, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who would find this information helpful/interesting.

Either way, I would very much be interested in any links or resources that you could provide regarding this topic. Maybe via private message?
It seems to be ok to post them according to coradee :) (please correct me if I am wrong)
I'm not a member of any of these sites, I just use Google to read them ,I only use fishlore lol.

Here's a thread that has an excellent post explaining nanometers and photosynthesis, (scroll down little, it's the long post with the colour spectrum pics)
Will 18,000k work as well as 6700k?

And here's a very informative write up with additional rescorses ,explaining Kelvins, pur, par, lux, nm and photosynthesis
Important Factors on Tank Lighting Important Factors on Tank Lighting - Lighting - Aquatic Plant Central

Hope you find them helpful! :)
 
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cmid21

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Falena
Thanks so much for providing these, specifically the second link. Those posts are brilliant.

I have wrapped my head around the general concepts, now I just need to ponder how I can utilize this information in my aquarium. :bookworm: I have anubias, sagittaria subulate, dwarf sag so it will be interesting to see the reaction to my lighting.

My lighting allegedly at max setting:
18"
PAR=48
LUX=1794
Kelvin=6980
PUR=58%

So the PUR seems to be a good percentage if the data is accurate.
Fascinating stuff, already ate up most of my day reading.
 

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So I'll give my $0.02 on this because I grow aquatic plants submerged in arguably the most powerful light source available: direct sunlight. I also grow aquatic plant indoors within planted aquariums using extremely high amounts of light (my SB Reef Planted Light that puts around 140+ PAR down at the substrate, or 240+ on full power at the substrate).

The short answer: NO. There is no light intensity that is simply too much for plants to grow. You can use extremely powerful lighting, but there are definitely drawbacks to consider when going for an insane amount of lighting.

It is simply a myth that some aquatic plants simply can't grow in higher light because they are so called "low light plants". Any plant can grow in higher light and do well, as long as some basic needs are met.

Light is the driver of photosynthesis. However, as the amount of light increases, so does the demand for nutrients and CO2. Often, CO2 is widely overlooked in the hobby so if you want to go with higher light levels, you need to have adequate fertilizer and CO2 levels as well.

Higher light is harder to stabilize in a planted tank. Most people struggle with controlling higher light since it gives the aquarist less room to slack on maintenance, plant husbandry, or poor CO2/fertilization. Essentially, the higher your light, the more perfect your system has to be in order to maintain good growth and an absence of algae.

I can grow the typically "algae prone" crypts and bucephalandra under 100s of PAR at the substrate level with no algae whatsoever. Yet this is a direct result of near perfect conditions that I grow my plants in. Without such good conditions, my plants would get covered in algae and would not thrive. For my indoor aquariums that are simply for display, I do not use the highest amount of light possible because I am prioritizing plant arrangement over simply the fastest growth/best coloration that results from high light. Instead of using the max amount of 240+ PAR that I can blast at the substrate level, I choose to go with a more manageable 140+ PAR at the substrate. Again, these light levels are much higher than normal, but this light level is manageable for me currently.

Without enough CO2, fertilizers, cleanliness, or good flow, higher light would incinerate the plant because the plant would not be able to utilize it effectively.

Anubias will do fine in 50 or 60 PAR, provided that it is receiving all the nutrients and CO2 that it needs. I've been able to grow anubias in direct sunlight, with no algae issues or growth defects or yellowing leaves or any issues, because I provided it with everything that it needs.

For most hobbyists that care just about creating a successful planted tank, I'd recommend purchasing a light that is specifically built for planted tanks. The Finnex, twinstar, ONF, SB Reef, and ADA brands all make great lights. If I were to recommend one for a lowtech tank, or one that is just getting into CO2, I'd recommend the old trustworthy Finnex lights. With these brands, you won't have to worry about the spectrum, color temp, PAR, PUR, etc since they are created specifically to optimize plant growth.
 

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Algonquin said:
It has been my experience that anubias getting too much light will not be happy. The leaves will turn yellow, then start getting brown/rotted areas.
However, there are other 'low light' plants that seem to be happy getting more light (ie my java ferns) so I think it depends on which plant it is :)
For what it's worth, I blast my anubias with light and one has flowered and another is getting ready to do so again.

20200313_193149.jpg
 

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cmid21 said:
Hello everyone,

I was interested in hearing everyone's opinion regarding "too much" light? When researching on general curiosity, I found many sources split on this topic. Some argue there isn't ever an issue with too much light (obviously to a reasonable extent within normal aquarium lighting parameters) and that low light plants are categorized as such due to their ability to grow in low light as opposed to their inability to grow in medium/high light. I have also read the contrary, where low light plants will perish in higher levels of light. I have also read anywhere in between. What is your take?

And to be more specific, if you care to be:
My research was spurred by Anubias plants. At the maximum, I have my lighting running around 53-58 PAR at the substrate level for a couple of hours. (one of those programable 24/7 lighting systems) I know Anubias plants don't necessarily require anything above low light, but will this melt the plant? What if the leaves are close to the surface, what would be your anticipations?
I killed off my fair share of low light plants will too much light
 

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cmid21 said:
Another random thought: (please feel free to throw in random thoughts, don't worry about side-tracking this discussion. I find everyone's input interesting)

Why does everyone emphasize PAR as the go-to rating? (μmol/s; μmol/m²/s) Instead of nm, which no one ever seems to talk about and isn't really provided by light manufacturers.
First for those that want to follow along;
Emitter = a single chip, led in my examples, can be a single color, or multI mode that switch rapidly between colors
Array= group of emitters on a single panel (if you have a store bought or custom led bar you have an array)
nm=nanometer the actual output "color" of a single color emmiter or that a multI mode emmiter is emitting(even if you can't see it)
PAR=photosynthetic active radiation (brightness as plants see it)
Lumen=perceived visible brightness (brightness as eyes see it)
Kelvin=color temperature as eyes see it (a red, bue and green light can be balanced to make many shades, described in "k" or 6500k cool white, 4000k=neutral white, 2500k= warm white etc.)


It's not really that no one wants to talk about nano meter, just that it is (wrongly) assumed that a light claiming full spectrum will have the distribution of various nm emitters casting the proper amount of light. Often you will see a light listed as full spectrum and "x" lumen. These lights are very misleading if there is no par value listed.

Since PAR is the radiation level of a source that a plant can see it is a better measure to use to advertise to a discerning buyer as it does take into account what the plant sees vs the above mentioned lights that tall about what you can see.

I do like to know what the emitters on my arrays are putting out (nm) so I make sure to design them with lights capable of producing 400 and 600 nm at a level appropriate for some plants at a target you would measure in par. This of course makes a very ugly to view side color temperature so then I fill the rest of the spectrum in with whatever generic LEDs I can use to fill it. Often to get good growth growth results and the appearance I like my "whites" (the filler lights) are significantly brighter than my "growers" (red/blue strips) to the level of which I have actually designed my most recent light set up backwards for space efficiency. I run red and blue (with green mixed in sparingly for my eyes) about 12 hours at a lower than normal PAR ~30. They are dI'm enough I timed then as twilight and sunset sandwiching the ludicrous bright 7 hours of ~6000k whites. I haven't been able to measure the par of the whites, and only know the par on the color bars mathematically based on spec/data sheets but I'm estimating the whites to contribute an additional 30-40 par at a very pleasant to look at total Kelvin when it's all running mid day. This gives a ~60 par average across my full light cycle. It grows annubias, crypt and sword quite well. This isn't that high as allot of folks will recommend 100 par on an 8 hour schedule.

My example should nearly sumarize why PAR is the important part when marketing to a consumer. If the light has a good temperature (to look at) and par (to grow with) you are making a pretty safe bet. It's the lights that don't list par you need to worry more and do your own math on the break down of the various nm on the array to see if you can achieve the par required for your plants of choice. My remaining nicrew light has a ton of lumen output but relative to it's perceived brightness it has a fairly low par, lower than I currently output with my twilight's.

The wild card is fast switching whites, depending on the chip manufacture, a single emitter that appears white could be all the color (nm) you need. Allot of the fancy expensive lights are doing this but they do the math for you in an app. To balance it without an app matching the needs of the plant to your chosen color palette you would need a knowledge of the relationship between all perceived colors vs the par specific ones and then you could get rolling. I could go deep into pulse width modulation and fast switching lights but I think it needs it's own thread :)
 
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cmid21

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Littlebudda said:
You need to look at it like a garden some plants will tolerate a dark room but will do better in bright indirect light yet will die in full outdoor light. Finding the right plant for the conditions you can provide is the key.
I understand the comparison, but I am not sure that we can compare the capacity of sunlight to standard aquarium lighting. Not saying your comparison is incorrect, as I don't know, but I would argue the intensity of the sun and differences between the levels of observed sunlight are far more intense and are of greater ranges than those experienced via aquarium lighting.

I was pondering if standard aquarium plants could tolerate this perceived (my perception, not fact) slight deviation from desired lighting levels.
In an attempt to clarify:
Meaning, no LED or Halide is capable of coming close to the energy of the sun. The difference (and the intensity) between full on summer sun and indirect sun light will be far greater than the difference between a plant placement of several inches in an aquarium; or the difference between two of the more popular standard aquarium lighting fixtures.

So I think full sun is 2000 µmol/m2/s. Aquarium lighting doesn't come close to this number. So this would cause some plants to melt pretty fast, especially if they are "low light." Partial light, would be a fraction of this measurement. This distance would be greater than the distance between say a "high output" lighting system and "medium" lighting system.

I guess I am more wondering if the differences between standard aquarium lighting systems would cause certain plants to die and if the categorical "low light" "high light" is particularly valid. It looks as though some people have seen it make a difference, (assuming that their CO2/O2/nutrient levels were appropriate: there are all those pesky variables again) and some people have been just fine.

Vishaquatics said:
So I'll give my $0.02 on this because I grow aquatic plants submerged in arguably the most powerful light source available: direct sunlight. I also grow aquatic plant indoors within planted aquariums using extremely high amounts of light (my SB Reef Planted Light that puts around 140+ PAR down at the substrate, or 240+ on full power at the substrate).

The short answer: NO. There is no light intensity that is simply too much for plants to grow. You can use extremely powerful lighting, but there are definitely drawbacks to consider when going for an insane amount of lighting.

It is simply a myth that some aquatic plants simply can't grow in higher light because they are so called "low light plants". Any plant can grow in higher light and do well, as long as some basic needs are met.

Light is the driver of photosynthesis. However, as the amount of light increases, so does the demand for nutrients and CO2. Often, CO2 is widely overlooked in the hobby so if you want to go with higher light levels, you need to have adequate fertilizer and CO2 levels as well.

Higher light is harder to stabilize in a planted tank. Most people struggle with controlling higher light since it gives the aquarist less room to slack on maintenance, plant husbandry, or poor CO2/fertilization. Essentially, the higher your light, the more perfect your system has to be in order to maintain good growth and an absence of algae.

I can grow the typically "algae prone" crypts and bucephalandra under 100s of PAR at the substrate level with no algae whatsoever. Yet this is a direct result of near perfect conditions that I grow my plants in. Without such good conditions, my plants would get covered in algae and would not thrive. For my indoor aquariums that are simply for display, I do not use the highest amount of light possible because I am prioritizing plant arrangement over simply the fastest growth/best coloration that results from high light. Instead of using the max amount of 240+ PAR that I can blast at the substrate level, I choose to go with a more manageable 140+ PAR at the substrate. Again, these light levels are much higher than normal, but this light level is manageable for me currently.

Without enough CO2, fertilizers, cleanliness, or good flow, higher light would incinerate the plant because the plant would not be able to utilize it effectively.

Anubias will do fine in 50 or 60 PAR, provided that it is receiving all the nutrients and CO2 that it needs. I've been able to grow anubias in direct sunlight, with no algae issues or growth defects or yellowing leaves or any issues, because I provided it with everything that it needs.

For most hobbyists that care just about creating a successful planted tank, I'd recommend purchasing a light that is specifically built for planted tanks. The Finnex, twinstar, ONF, SB Reef, and ADA brands all make great lights. If I were to recommend one for a lowtech tank, or one that is just getting into CO2, I'd recommend the old trustworthy Finnex lights. With these brands, you won't have to worry about the spectrum, color temp, PAR, PUR, etc since they are created specifically to optimize plant growth.
This is awesome information, thank you for taking the time to provide your expertise Vishaquatics !

Very informative, especially the thoughts on providing for more demanding needs in higher light concentrations. Never thought of that. So, it seems as though you advocate that plants don't necessarily have a "low light" "high light" component as much as a variable package of needs based on the environment. I never thought of it in that light. (pun intended :happy:)

Thanks for the contribution John58ford , I had some clarifying questions for you if I may:

John58ford said:
I do like to know what the emmiters on my arrays are putting out (nm) so I make sure to design them with lights capable of producing 400 and 600 nm at a level appropriate for some plants at a target you would measure in par.
How do you know your nm measurements? Both what you are putting out and perceived at a predetermined level?
John58ford said:
If the light has a good temperature (to look at) and par (to grow with) you are making a pretty safe bet.
I guess this would be far more inconsequential for the average hobbyist (I agree with your statement here), but it was established that plants utilize opposite ends of the spectrum for most of the plant growth. For the extreme hobbyist, I would think you would want to also know the PUR (PPFD/PAS) to know the usefulness of that particular light. (green/yellow spectrum vs red/blue spectrum)


mimo91088 said:
For what it's worth, I blast my anubias with light and one has flowered and another is getting ready to do so again.

20200313_193149.jpg
Looks good mimo91088 ! Are you able to provide any measurements or details such as PAR rating at the plant, if you run CO2, Fert schedule? This looks like what Vishaquatics was speaking to as far as meeting the needs for low light plants in higher light situations. With some details, maybe we can connect some dots.

You guys/girls are great! What a wonderful discussion, there are some brilliant people here. (great resource for someone who is dumb like myself)
 

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