Substrate preferences of plants?

Not sure if this is the right section... some things intersect with enough other things categorizing it gets interesting but here goes:
I think I have the general idea of what substrate I want for my tank but not the finer details. The tank I'm planning I intend to have Java Moss, Java Fern, Stargrass, Anarcharis, and Water Wisteria for plants and the tank will be home to Amano Shrimp and possibly Java Loaches in addition to other fish that to the best of my understanding are indifferent to substrate so long as it isn't sharp.

So I was thinking of planting the Water Wisteria and Anacharis in the back-round of the tank near the corners and have the Java Ferns nearer to the middle and mid ground around a structure of stone and driftwood that I'm planning out that'd have the Java Moss arranged decoratively on it and lastly having the Stargrass carpeting the foreground. To support these plants I was thinking there'd be a layer of soil-like substrate throughout the bottom of the tank. Mostly soil around the Anacharis and Water Wisteria and shifting to a top-layer of sand around the Java Fern and either sand or rounded pebbles/gravel around the Stargrass.
Please note my tap water is slightly basic for the Shrimp so I'd like to avoid making it more basic if the substrate will have a lasting affect upon the pH balance of my water.

Does this seem like a solid plan or am I over-complicating things for myself? If it's overly-complicated how best should I simplify this?
Any recommendations for specific substrates?

 

First You need substrates for shrimp so shrimp can live.It is lightly acidic some how but ph 6.8 - 7.4 is ok.If you plain to have shrimp in tank.I suggest you should set alone shrimp tank so it is safer for shrimp due to other fish even guppy will eat shrimp fry or may even attack shrimp.
You don't need to have loach in shrimp tank.,it may disturb or kill fry .Best is get some horn snail to help to clean up the excess food left over.Just about it.
if you think you have fish tank then set up the fish tank with appropriate fishes and loach .The fish tank will come with 2 type of substrate,Acidic substrates or alkaline substrates .Pick the right one for your fish due to some fish will live with different type of water condition.
You can plant what ever plants you like but it have many different kind: low light,mid light,high light,no CO2 and Co2 require...pick the right plan for the plant / light.


for shrimp tank and acidic fishes..



for Alkaline fishes:



These are less cost in market right now...

 

First You need substrates for shrimp so shrimp can live.It is lightly acidic some how but ph 6.8 - 7.4 is ok.If you plain to have shrimp in tank.I suggest you should set alone shrimp tank so it is safer for shrimp due to other fish even guppy will eat shrimp fry or may even attack shrimp.
You don't need to have loach in shrimp tank.,it may disturb or kill fry .Best is get some horn snail to help to clean up the excess food left over.Just about it.
if you think you have fish tank then set up the fish tank with appropriate fishes and loach .The fish tank will come with 2 type of substrate,Acidic substrates or alkaline substrates .Pick the right one for your fish due to some fish will live with different type of water condition.
You can plant what ever plants you like but it have many different kind: low light,mid light,high light,no CO2 and Co2 require...pick the right plan for the plant / light.

Thank you for your concern. I have spent quite a while planning the tank and getting advice on various aspects to try to mitigate the potential the fish attacking the shrimp. Amano don't breed in freshwater and will be of comparable, if not greater, size than most of the fish. My aqua-scaping plans have been for ensuring that they will have plenty of cover to feel secure
I have made very sure to have appropriate lighting for the plants and they do not require a Co2 injector.

 

I have eco complete in my large tank and moonshine (caribsea) in my 29. To be honest I like the fine substrate much better than coarse eco complete but it is not a fair comparison in some ways. With ecocomplete the substrate is not quite so thick - I think 2 1/2 to 3 inches - where as I made the moonshine 4 inches deep. Also I have a ugf plate under the moonshine (I am not running a ugf but I have the plate and it is covered iwth ground cloth to keep the substrate above). With eco-complete plants have been a mixed bag - the jungle val grows like a jungle but the swords have not done as well as they should (I do use root tabs). The dwarf lily grows even more aggressively than the jungle val and is almost out of control.
-
in the 29 the Aponogeton ulvaceus took over the tank forming a very large shade causing issues with other plants. The lily did well at first but once they became shaded they have struggled as have some other plants. I've toyed with removing or cutting back the ulvaceus but it is in fact a very lovely set of plants so for now I leave them be.
-
The negatives of the moonshine is that it is very fine powder and if you disturb it - it will take a while to settle - also it is white and is easily made to look a bit dirty over time; last but least it is very difficult to vacuum. caribsea has another substrate that is an off white and not quite as fine that I wish to try at some point (sunset gold).
-
There is also the question of age - my large tank is now about 6 months old (and before my move another 6 months - but the move greatly disturbed plant growth). The 29 is only around 10 weeks old so I need more time to see how the substrate ages.
-
My preference for the fine substrate is that it is easier for the fishes to dig in it and for the plants I have deep is better.
-
btw I grow my Anacharis mostly as a floating plant with hornworth. Occasionally a strand will attach it self.

 

Your plain so far so good .You are not really complicated yourself at all.You design the way your tank should be and it look like a solid plan.
The Cost maybe more or less depend how you want to spend but no matter what substrate you pick,soon you have to use fertilizer for your plants to boost it to grow.I seen some one grow they plants with cheap sand+ liquid fert+ root tap fert .Other grow them with a lay of fert then substrate then sand top up to keep surface look color ,nice ,smooth and can hold the plant.I also seen people grow them plant with just small size of gravel + fert both kind + Co2 and plant grow good.
Plants need fert to grow ,but too much fert then it effect the water parameter .Becareful not over feed plant so you don't have to change water alot.Too less fert then plant look so peel with white clear leaves.
What I think substrates is just a soil for plant.Plant grow strong or look good or not ,depend on many other factors beside it..like Light+ firt+ water condiction+ temp+ kind of plant+ how to care.Good luck!

 

Plain sand would probably work well for you. None of the plants / livestock you have laid out require any special substrate.

Supply the plants with some fertilizer via the water column, and you won't have to worry about layering substrates, messy dirt style substrates, algae issues caused By organics from nutrient rich substrates or any pH buffering from planted tank substrates.

Your wallet will get a break too... Black Diamond Blasting sand, Pool filter sand, Silica sand, play sand... Rinse well and place in tank.

 

The only real danger with plain sand is a large silica induced algae bloom at the start (usually the first month). I used a nice black substrate from stony river that they said is inert and I believe it really is inert as it did not have any sort of algae bloom. This substrate is not quite as fine as the moonshine but it also is very easy to vacuum as debris tend to lay on top and not mix. The two tanks I setup with the moonshine had a bit of bloom from what I believe was silica. It is not real algae but that fake stuff I can never remember the name.... after that one bloom it goes away and never comes back.

Plain sand would probably work well for you. None of the plants / livestock you have laid out require any special substrate.

Supply the plants with some fertilizer via the water column, and you won't have to worry about layering substrates, messy dirt style substrates, algae issues caused By organics from nutrient rich substrates or any pH buffering from planted tank substrates.

Your wallet will get a break too... Black Diamond Blasting sand, Pool filter sand, Silica sand, play sand... Rinse well and place in tank.

 

The only real danger with plain sand is a large silica induced algae bloom at the start (usually the first month). I used a nice black substrate from stony river that they said is inert and I believe it really is inert as it did not have any sort of algae bloom. The two tanks I setup with the moonshine had a bit of bloom from what I believe was silica. It is not real algae but that fake stuff I can never remember the name.... after that one bloom it goes away and never comes back.

New tanks are all prone to diatoms (silica algae) regardless of sand used. Silica sand is completely inert.

 

I plant all my tanks and depending on the level of planting and lights I plan substrate accordingly. I find a large grain sand works best for low tech tanks. It doesn't compact like finer grain sands and that allows for some movement of water through the substrate but keeps detritus and mulm on top. I have become quite fond of layering my substrate in low tech with some laterite powder and humate or fluvals shrimp substrate covered by a large grain sand.it keeps parameters from being moved by the ph lowering aspects of many plant specific substrates, reduces or even eliminates the ammonia leach in others to a great extent and still allows for the plants to easily access and utilize the enriched substrates. Large grain sands are also much more smooth and rounded then any kind of gravel.

That's just what I've found has been working exceptionally well for me this past couple years. I've changed my approach many times over the years and there are many effective methods to try and see what works for you.

 

I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to the thread. I am still having some difficulty picking out substrates but I've got a better idea of what I'm looking at now.
Seems like aquasoils will affect pH but will also provide nutrients to the plants better than the other options. So a bit of a tradeoff there. Not sure if the acidic soil would make the water too acidic for the shrimp and my water is already pretty basic so I don't want to go in that direction either.
Then there's the inert substrates. Looks like there's some great options but they all have the issue of being inert and as such not having nutrients for the plants and so I'd need to figure a plan for fertilizers.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that if you use a soil with nutrients eventually those nutrients will be used up and you will have to either replace it or revert to fertilizer.
-
Also I wanted to correct one thing I said earlier - moonshine (caribsea) has one very big negative - it is very difficult to vacuum so if you use messy fish (or snail or shrimp); that require vacuum it will be a bit difficult. substrate like stony river black is dense enough that '' sits on top and is very easy to vacuum.

I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to the thread. I am still having some difficulty picking out substrates but I've got a better idea of what I'm looking at now.
Seems like aquasoils will affect pH but will also provide nutrients to the plants better than the other options. So a bit of a tradeoff there. Not sure if the acidic soil would make the water too acidic for the shrimp and my water is already pretty basic so I don't want to go in that direction either.
Then there's the inert substrates. Looks like there's some great options but they all have the issue of being inert and as such not having nutrients for the plants and so I'd need to figure a plan for fertilizers.

 

Seems like aquasoils will affect pH but will also provide nutrients to the plants better than the other options. So a bit of a tradeoff there. Not sure if the acidic soil would make the water too acidic for the shrimp and my water is already pretty basic so I don't want to go in that direction either.
Then there's the inert substrates. Looks like there's some great options but they all have the issue of being inert and as such not having nutrients for the plants and so I'd need to figure a plan for fertilizers.

You are correct with the aquasoil style substrates. If you are planning on using tap water with a higher pH it would be wise to avoid aquasoil style substrates (large pH swing when doing water changes).

For inert - they are cheap, come in tons of colours / shapes / sizes, easy to clean, easy to work with and will last the life of the tank without effecting water parameters. Fertilizing is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.

For easy, I would go with a quality all-in-one fertilizer such as Thrive or Easy-Green. You could also mix up or dry dose fertilizer using EI or PPS-Pro dosing methods.

For a medium / intermediate fertilizer regime, you can use a modified EI (to your tanks needs).

For advanced, you can go completely custom and mix up every nutrient plants need to your specific concentrations.

If your pH is above 6.5 do not use EDTA Iron. Instead use DTPA or Ferrous Gluconate (Flourish Iron). If you are going to use CSM+B for Micro nutrients, add additional DTPA 11% Iron (equaling the amount of Iron in CSM+B from EDTA Iron) into that mix if your pH is above 6.5.

Do not worry about root tabs, they are completely not necessary if you are dosing the water column sufficiently. "Root feeder" is a myth, they will grow equally as well, if not better, in inert substrate and water column fertilizer.

Visit this website to help you determine any amounts of fertilizer needed for your tank: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

 

You are correct with the aquasoil style substrates. If you are planning on using tap water with a higher pH it would be wise to avoid aquasoil style substrates (large pH swing when doing water changes).

For inert - they are cheap, come in tons of colours / shapes / sizes, easy to clean, easy to work with and will last the life of the tank without effecting water parameters. Fertilizing is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.

For easy, I would go with a quality all-in-one fertilizer such as Thrive or Easy-Green. You could also mix up or dry dose fertilizer using EI or PPS-Pro dosing methods.

For a medium / intermediate fertilizer regime, you can use a modified EI (to your tanks needs).

For advanced, you can go completely custom and mix up every nutrient plants need to your specific concentrations.

If your pH is above 6.5 do not use EDTA Iron. Instead use DTPA or Ferrous Gluconate (Flourish Iron). If you are going to use CSM+B for Micro nutrients, add additional DTPA 11% Iron (equaling the amount of Iron in CSM+B from EDTA Iron) into that mix if your pH is above 6.5.

Do not worry about root tabs, they are completely not necessary if you are dosing the water column sufficiently. "Root feeder" is a myth, they will grow equally as well, if not better, in inert substrate and water column fertilizer.

Visit this website to help you determine any amounts of fertilizer needed for your tank: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

Thanks for the clarifications. The technical details about ferts are still a bit... difficult for me but I appreciate at least having my suspicions that I should just go for inert substrates and learn fertilizers confirmed. My tab pH is 7.6 so that at least narrows down my choices a bit. Really want the plants to do well after investing in a powerful light for them and kind of need the Stargrass to do well if I want a carpet of it.

 

Thanks for the clarifications. The technical details about ferts are still a bit... difficult for me but I appreciate at least having my suspicions that I should just go for inert substrates and learn fertilizers confirmed. My tab pH is 7.6 so that at least narrows down my choices a bit. Really want the plants to do well after investing in a powerful light for them and kind of need the Stargrass to do well if I want a carpet of it.

Tank size?
Exact Lights?
Water change schedule?
Excel / Metricide dosing?
Plant selection?

That will help determine some good option to recommend for fertilizing...

Google EI and PPS-Pro too... Thrive would be my recommendation for an easy / medium tech tank.

If you are leaning towards EI, top up the Iron in CSM+B with DTPA 11% Iron and don't dose as much NO3 or K... It builds up too much for our needs using traditional EI.

We can talk about this later on though. For now, lay out your goals and choose your substrate / plants.

 

I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to the thread. I am still having some difficulty picking out substrates but I've got a better idea of what I'm looking at now.
Seems like aquasoils will affect pH but will also provide nutrients to the plants better than the other options. So a bit of a tradeoff there. Not sure if the acidic soil would make the water too acidic for the shrimp and my water is already pretty basic so I don't want to go in that direction either.
Then there's the inert substrates. Looks like there's some great options but they all have the issue of being inert and as such not having nutrients for the plants and so I'd need to figure a plan for fertilizers.

You can do root tabs for inert substrates, you'd eventually use those with other substrates anyways when they've been depleted of their nutrients.