Still Cycling 75 gallon tank - 8 weeks later - w/15 fish

HI CindiL

You are correct, we have 7 Adult Dalmation Mollies and 1 Dalmation Molly baby (1 cm long) and we have 8 serpae tetra.

We don't have a water softner for our tap water. When we do water changes, we use Prime/Stability to remove metals, etc etc

Thanks again!

 

Oh ok, my guess is that your KH is too low which is why your ph is falling. Let us know what the test results show and we'll be happy to help out.

Your mollies will definitely need hard water which I am assuming you don't have but we'll find out.

Always so much to learn in this hobby.

 

So I brought some tank water, gravel, my tap water, and one of the pieces of decoration that's in the tank all to the fish store. They ran tests and as you predicted, the kH is low. They are not sure what is causing the low Kh and thus low pH. They told me to take one of the decorations and place it in a bucket of my tap water and test the pH after 12 hours then 24 hours. My tap water is at 7.6 pH. They are wondering if the pH will change in that bucket with the decoration.

At the moment, I don't have a kH test - didn't know I needed one. Tomorrow, I'll be calling the fish store to see what they learned and to share the results of my pH test in the bucket. For now they told me not to make any water changes, etc.

I'm open to advice, suggestions, help, etc

Thanks!!!

 

Sounds like you got good advice from your fish store employee. I would do exactly what you were told and find the cause of the problem. If you can't find a cause, there are things you can do to naturally raise the KH level. Avoiding water changes is because that raises your pH then it falls again. All that jumping around is very stressful on the fish so for the time being, its better to just leave it until you get this all figured out.

 

Ton of info, so I apologize if this was already answered. If you are going to be adding snails to the tank, I would definitely suggest putting a sponge filter over the intake. I believe many people do it with shrimp too.

Yes, you'll need to clean it, because things will get stuck to it, but it serves as an additional place for BB to colonize and helps your little guys from poking out their feelers while too close to it and getting stuck/injured.

 

I don't think it's a decoration though anything is possible. Did they say your tap water had a low KH? Did they test your GH? I would suggest going ahead and buying a GH/KH test. Also pick up or order some Seachem Replenish if your GH was low. Your mollies won't live long if it's low. They're one of those fish that really need a lot of minerals in their water.

For KH as mentioned in last nights post you can use crushed coral in your filter. As your ph starts to drop it will disintegrate the coral thus raising your KH and ph. Or you can use Seachem Alkaline Buffer which will do the same thing. I actually do both for my RO water, I have crushed coral in my filter but I always buffer my water when I change it.

 

Yes, you'll need to clean it, because things will get stuck to it, but it serves as an additional place for BB to colonize and helps your little guys from poking out their feelers while too close to it and getting stuck/injured.

Wow, I've never had this happen, my little guys climb up and down my intakes all the time.

 

You're lucky! My adult mystery snail, Whatley got completely stuck. I fortunately was by the tank only a minute or two after it happened. Had to turn of the filter intake and he was out immediately, with no damage done, but it was still a scare.

 

It's me again!

So the fish store called back and the decorations in the tank don't appear to be the cause. They suggested I get more circulation. Though we have a small bubbler (2 inch long stone at end of tube), they suggested that we get a maxI jet to circulate the water and get it more oxygenated. I forgot to ask them about the crushed coral. So perhaps you can tell me - where do I get crushed coral? Would that be from the fish store or another place? Also, what do you think of this maxI jet idea? We're happy to do what we need to get this tank "completed". Jst want tomake sure we are doing the right things!

Thanks again!

 

No, I am sure your Aqua Clear 110 puts out plenty of circulation and a lot of people don't even have bubblers which you do. You don't need a maxI jet and I'm not sure why they would even suggest that as it has nothing to do with your KH......

Crushed coral is really cheap and I bought a bag at Pet Smart, it looks like this:



You'll find it with the substrates. Put a good sized bag of this, maybe a cup or so in a mesh media bag and put it in your aqua clear. If the store doesn't have the media bags, part of a mesh stocking works too! It can go where your other biological media goes. It will serve as a place for the bacteria to grow as well as supplying calcium carbonate to increase your KH and hold your ph steady. Most people find it works well and within a couple days you should see that your ph goes back up or holds after a water change. You can add more then a cup if need be.

That will take care of that particular problem!

Did they tell you what your GH was? Its important to find that out also. You may or may not need to increase it depending on that number. The coral will help raise that and will also be good for your snails. I just don't know if it will be enough for the mollies so make sure you find that out too.

 

Thanks for the info on the crushed coral! Do you know if I could use a knee high stocking as a "media bag"? The reason I ask is because I'd like to pick this up on FrI and get it into the tank as quickly as we can.

Regarding they "why" for the maxi-jet. I was told that perhaps with not enough circulation, I have dead spots in the aquarium - hence the need for a maxi-jet. They said very honestly that they don't know what the cause of the low kh/ph is. I don't recall that they told me about GH. I just ordered an API kH and gH test kit.

Thank you again for your advice and help! It's greatly appreciated!

 

One more question!!!

I have an AquaClear 110 filter which hangs on the back of my tank. The bottom has a very thick sponge that came with the filter. The next layer (middle later) is a mesh bag of activated carbon, and the top layer is a bag of ceramic porous rings. There's no way another bag of stuff (aka crushed coral) will fit in there. So, my idea would be to slice the sponge in half so that it is "thinner", which would allow me to add the crushed coral. Would this be OK? Also, what layer would the crushed coral be?

 

The coral doesn't necessarily have to go in the filter. You can hang it on the edge of the tank is it is just below the filter which creates water movement around it. You also could remove the carbon as it is not necessary in most cases, which would give you room to put the coral in the filter if you don't want to see it hanging in the tank.

 

Thanks for the info on the crushed coral! Do you know if I could use a knee high stocking as a "media bag"? The reason I ask is because I'd like to pick this up on FrI and get it into the tank as quickly as we can.

One more question!!!

I have an AquaClear 110 filter which hangs on the back of my tank. The bottom has a very thick sponge that came with the filter. The next layer (middle later) is a mesh bag of activated carbon, and the top layer is a bag of ceramic porous rings. There's no way another bag of stuff (aka crushed coral) will fit in there. So, my idea would be to slice the sponge in half so that it is "thinner", which would allow me to add the crushed coral. Would this be OK? Also, what layer would the crushed coral be?

Actually the sponge is more important then the activated carbon. I would leave the sponge whole, take out some or all of the carbon and replace it with the crushed coral.

Yes, a nylon knee high sock would work in a pinch but a mesh style would be better. They usually sell the media bags at Petsmart and other big box pet stores if that's where you are going. They are a pretty common item.

 

They usually sell the media bags at Petsmart and other big box pet stores if that's where you are going. They are a pretty common item.

They're also really inexpensive, like $0.89 or $0.99, at least at PetSmart.

 

I should have mentioned that in a low KH issue like what you have going on here you can use baking soda (not powder). Use 1/2 tsp, mix it with a little tank water and put it in the tank, wait an hour, test ph, use another 1/2 tsp if needed etc. This will actually increase your KH also and will help hold the ph until you get to the pet store this weekend.

This will safely bring your ph up. I'm afraid if it drops much more over the next 48 hours you'll start losing fish.

 

OK, so here's the latest on our cycling - pH - etc dilema!

I liked the idea of the crushed coral. Admittedly, was having a tough time understanding how much to use. When I spoke with my local fish store, they said that it can be risky at such a low pH because it will dissolve very quickly due to the acidic water and could cause great fluctuations. So, upon their advice, we tried brackish salt. So far it appears to be working. We did a water change on Sat morning, added the brackish salt, and it's Monday afternoon and pH is still at 7.6 instead of dropping down to 0. It also appears that because we had such low ph for so long, our good bacteria either went dormant or died off, as ammonia is up at 1.0 today. I assume then that we will have to go thru some more cycling time before everything levels off. Do you know if this means starting over for another 8-12 weeks?

Note - we are using prime and stability.

 

My understanding of Brackish Salt (is this Seachem's product?) is not a buffering agent and will not effect ph so if your ph is holding right now, I am not sure it is because of the brackish salt. I would still recommend Seachem Alkaline Buffer.

Did you get your GH/KH test kit in the mail? When you get it, test your tap and tank for both of those and let us know what they are ok?

Yes, a low ph will kill off good bacteria. The population in your tank that grows into a colony is ideal for the ph you had so if your ph dropped to 6 or below it would have drastically slowed down or killed off some of the population.

No, you won't have to do the whole re-cycle as you should have (hopefully) some substantial amounts of bacteria still. Hard to say for sure but I would hope it would build back up within a few weeks.

 

I understand and agree that per the bottle, it should not affect the pH. I too do not understand the "why" and "how" of what is going on at the moment. We will continue to test the pH and see what trends develop. As for the gH/kH test kit, it is due to arrive for us on Wed night, so we will test and post results here as soon as we can.

Can you point me to the proper amount of crushed coral to use in case I do end up needing it?

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

Probably about 1/2 cup, maybe a little more to start out with. You just replace it as it dissolves. You get a giant bag, at least 10lbs for really cheap. It will definitely last a long time. Or again, I would get Seachem's Alkaline buffer depending on your KH test. I use it with my RO water to bring my KH up to 100ppm. I just put in a couple tsp's at water change time.

Well anyways, you have a couple of options! The crushed coral will definitely keep your ph from crashing because as it drops it does errode the coral, which releases the calcium in effect buffering your water and holding the ph. I know lots of people use it here.

Here is a link, its 12.99 for 15lbs which will last a long time:



You could always start a new thread if you want more input on it but it will do the job

 

Thank you for the info! I look forward to getting the kH/gH test kit. Once I do, I'll let you know the results. I'm curious to see now what the results will be.

My petsmart and petco didn't have any crushed coral this past weekend - I guess it was a hot item. I went to the website today and it looks like they have it in stock again. I figure I'll pick it up to have it on hand for when I need it.

 

My petsmart and petco didn't have any crushed coral this past weekend - I guess it was a hot item. I went to the website today and it looks like they have it in stock again. I figure I'll pick it up to have it on hand for when I need it.

Sounds good. I would go ahead and put it in my filter either way because you have had a problem in the past and whether its something going on with your water suppier or what it would prevent a crash in the future. It won't hurt anything and your snails will be happy you have it (as well as the mollies) and nitrifying bacteria will be happy to grow on it also.

Rinse it and it can go in a mesh media bag or even a nylon sock.

I would also be testing your ph once a day during this period.

 

People are often confused how to determine how many drops they have used and when exactly the color changes in the GH/KH tests. The best way to tell is by looking down the test tube. So for instance when doing the GH test it starts out orange, at the drop where looking down into the tube it looks green and not orange that is your number of drops.

 

The kH/gH test kit came in. We tested our tank water and the tap water. But I admit, I could not figure out how to read the test table on the test kit. I'm listing here the # of drops it took to change the color in each test tube. Can you help me translate this into "results"?

Our Tank water yesterday was 2 drops for kH and 14 drops for gH.
Our tap water yesterday was 3 drops for kH and 5 drops for gH.

Thanks a bunch for all of your help! You're invaluable!

Our pH in the tank remains at 7.4 whereas the tap water comes out at a 7.6.

 

Hello, glad I've been able to help some

So your tap KH of 3 drops is 53.7ppm. This is low, and wouldn't take much for it to bottom out which then your ph drops. I would personally rather see it up 5 drops minimum (89.5) to keep your ph steady. Are you on a public water supply? Its possible that some of these readings may fluctuate and could explain why you had the sudden un-expected drop in ph.

Did you put the crushed coral in your filter yet? If not, my hunch is that the brackish salts you used have increased your GH in your tank(which is a good thing), putting your hardness at 250ppm which is good for the mollies, any shrimp or snails you may add but doesn't increase your KH the carbonate hardness that will help hold your ph steady.

So the bottom line is you need to raise your KH so that no matter what goes on with your water supply, your ph will never drop like that again. Either, the crushed coral or Seachems Alkaline buffer will both increase KH.

How is your cycle bump going with the ammonia/nitrites?

 

Again - thank you for your help!!!! And again - as I read and learn more, I have more questions! Aaaack!

(1) Is it safe to use brackish salts and crushed coral at the same time?
(2) How did you determine the the kH 53.7? I find the table that came with the kit confusing :-(

As for our tap water - yes, we're on a public water supply. I never spent so much time thinking about water!

So far the ammonia has held at 1 this week. What are your thoughts - do we change the water this weekend or do we let it stay at 1 and allow the good bacteria to "eat"?

Note - we haven't added any residents. My daughter made what I think was a pretty good decision - she wants the water to be right before she adds more aquatic family members. I'm hoping we get things in good enough shape for her to add before Christmas

 

I totally understand. I have lots of issues with my well water which is why I have learned what I have! It was a steep learning curve though and then I switched to RO water because I have very high tap nitrates and had to learn all about that as it contains very little of what fish need to live by itself.

Do you have any nitrites? If no, then I would let it hold but do a water change if it goes over if ammonia + nitrites goes over 1.0 when added together. Are you dosing Prime daily? If not, you should be with that ammonia.

Being on a public water supply they don't always tell you when they're going to do extra things like add more chlorine or chloramines temporarily or if something they have done is effecting the ph so its a good idea to check your water for ammonia and ph before doing a water change in case its way off and you need to add in additional prime etc.

Crushed coral is just calcium carbonate so I see no reason why you couldn't use both. I would suggest using less of the brackish salts by about 25%. AI'm for a GdH of 200 or so, roughly 10-11 drops. Does the brackish salt list the ingredients on the back? I couldn't find it on-line.

So one drop equals one degree dGH or dKH, when converted to ppm 1 drop equals 17.9 and that is your multiplier so 10 drops is 179 etc. Livebearers do really well with a dGH that is fairly high, right about where yours is now. I wouldn't necessarily go higher or you'll get some hard water deposits that are not fun to remove.

Weren't you thinking of adding some scaleless fish to your tank after it is caught back up on the cycling?
In regards to that brackish salt you are using, most scaleless fish will not tolerate salt of any significant amounts like what you are using. I would recommend using their Replenish product (calcium/magnesium) to keep your GH at a good level if you add those types of fish to your aquarium.

The carbonate hardness uses the same multiplier of 17.9. 5 or 6 drops/degrees or higher is really what you want for a stable ph.
This is a pretty good water chemistry for aquariums article that I like. I think you'll find it useful and to the point and not overly in detail.

 

HI Again! OK, so we're still getting through this water chemistry thing, but we seem to be improving in small increments. I tried the crushed coral and the SeaChem alkaline buffer. It seems we have better success with keeping things stable with the SeaChem buffer. We'll see how things go from here. Question on nitrates and nitrites. It seems there is advice all over the spectrum. Is there some definitive guide on these things? It appears we want ammonia and nitrite at 0 and then we want nitrates below 10. Is this reasonable for a freshwater social community of fish?

Note - due to the fluctuations with the water etc, we have not added any new residents. If we can remain stable for a few days (ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates and pH) then she'll go ahead and get her fish.

A really cool note... in addition to the one baby molly we still have (she's grown quite a bit!), we discovered another baby! As we only just caught a glimpse of it, we don't know yet the sex. This one is half the size of baby molly #1 so we suspect it will be a while before we see it again. BTW, we named baby molly #1, "Double 0 Fish" after James Bond's 007, since we rarely saw her and she would jet in and out between plants to grab food! Now we need to name the next one - we're thinking a holiday themed name!

Thank you once again and again for all of your help!!!!!!!!!! Here's hoping you have a wonderful holiday season!!! :;rudolph

 

HI there, seems like things are going well!

You want ammonia and nitrites at 0 all the time.
The end result of the nitrogen cycle is of course nitrates. I always aI'm to keep mine under 20, you don't have to keep them at 10 Up to 40 your fish will be "ok" but I wouldn't let them get above that personally. And of course the only common ways to remove them is through water changes and plants.

 

So we have nitrates, or rather we had nitrates and nitrites. We just did a water change and vacuum. I'm curious, how often should we vacuum the gravel? Mollies undoubtedly poop a lot.

 

When I had gravel I did them weekly.

 

OK, thanks! Had no idea we should vacuum that much! I thought we only vacuumed when we did a water change, but then if we wait 2 weeks, it would get really really dirty! Looks like we'll try to get that done weekly. Thanks a bunch!!!!

 

Oh, sorry I assumed you were doing water changes weekly.....
so I would just vacuum during water change time