Still Cycling 75 gallon tank - 8 weeks later - w/15 fish

HI All!

Back on 13 September, we put set up a 75 gallon freshwater tank running an AquaClear 100 filter, a heater that is keeping things at 79 degrees. It's not a planted tank - just a few pretty decorations.

Not having found this forum and going based on the "vast" and "deep" experience that my husband and I had with our own childhood fishtanks, we used Tetra Safe Start Plus. A week later we thought all was good and we let our daughter get her first residents: 8 dalmation mollies and 8 serpae tetra.

Since then, we've learned so much that we now know, we know so little! We've also had one mollie give birth - one fry apparently lives in some secret place and we had one death of a molly.

We are apparently we are still in the process then of cycling our tank. About 3 weeks ago we got an API Master test kit so that she could become a chemist and learn all about the nitrogen cycle. We've also spent what appears to be a countless amount of hours changing the water - anywhere from 15 gallons to half the tank.

Given that it is now 12 November, we are all wondering when does this cycling finally finish?

She tests the water daily. At best, we've had 0 ammonia for 2 days, but still 0 on the Nitrates and Nitrites. This week, we let the water go 4 days and ammonia went up to .5, and still no nitrates. We are using the SeaChem stability and prime products. In fact, we went out and got a 2nd bottle of SeaChem's "Seed". At this rate, this fish tank will cost me more than the 4 dogs we have!

So, I implore your help and advice. As a parent who wants to let her daughter get her next few fish (some kulI loaches and black mollies and a pleco) but who doesn't want to watch everyone die off due to the tank not cycling - let me know, when does this cycling fianlly end? Doing a water change onc e a week is not a problem. Doing a water change every other day along with homework, volleyball, dog training, and hockey and two full time working parents is a wee-bit stressful ;-)

Thanks in advance for your kind-hearted help.

Puisheb

 

First, the Tetra Safe Start needs to be added only shortly before the fish, otherwise you need to provide ammonia as a continued food source for the bacteria. What size bottle did you add this second time and when did that happen?

Also, when you do your water changes to bring your ammonia down, what do you bring it down to?

 

Hello, welcome to fishlore

It normally should only take a few weeks at most if you're using something like TSS+. Because you put it in, then didn't add fish for a week, it all died and didn't do you any good sorry to say

So .... this is what I would do if it was me to finish up the cycle. My "guess" is that you have some of both types of nitrifying bacteria (the ammonia converters and the nitrite converters). The best way to figure out where you're at and to let the cycle finish is to do the following (this will keep your fish safe also):

Have your daughter test the water daily

If ammonia + nitrites = less than 1.0 -- dose prime and stability and check again in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater - do a large water change (at least 50%), dose Prime and stability and re-check in 24 hours.

The thing is you need enough ammonia (through your fish) for the cycle to finish but not so much that you hurt your fish. Prime and stability will keep them safe, yet finish up the cycle. If you change out too much of the water too often it will take a LONG time. I cycled with fish a few years ago and mine took 12 weeks ugh! I was changing out 75% a day so it took FOREVER.

Also, is your daughter shaking the nitrate Regent 2 like the directions say. I mean banging it on the counter or on the palm of her hand and then after putting the drops in, shaking the tube for 60 seconds before the 5 minute count down.

Edit Prime detoxifies ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours which is why I'm using the formula that I gave.

 

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

Good information in the link above concerning Tetra Safe Start (TSS).

I have moved your thread to Aquarium Water/Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle section of the forum.

Thanks! Hang in there and good luck!

Ken

 

Thank you for the advice! We changed out water last night at about 6 PM and used prime/stability. We also added the SeaChem seed as supposedly that will help create the good-eating bacteria (you can see we're still getting the lingo down!). We'll check the parameters tonight after school. She actually has been checking the water nearly daily, at most missing 2 days in a 7 day week. However, you brought up an excellent suggestion on the shaking of the bottles. I don't watch her check and so it's possible that she's missing that part.

One question that came to mind this morning. We have in our filter, from bottom to top, the sponge that came with the AquaClear filter, then a bag of activated carbon, and then the media that appears to be ceramic barrels. Is the activated carbon possibly causing a slow-down?

One other question... about 2 weeks ago, the sponge in the filter was quite dirty. So during a 50% water change, while she scrubbed the glass, I rinsed out the filter using the fish tank water. The sponge "looked clean" again. Maybe I shouldn't have done that? I thought if I cleaned it with the fish tank water it would be OK.

Thanks again for all of your help!!!
Puisheb

Thanks, I'm sorry I didn't realize I placed this in the wrong spot. As a newbie, I tend to think "everything I ask" is newbie oriented!

 

Answers below in RED

However, you brought up an excellent suggestion on the shaking of the bottles. I don't watch her check and so it's possible that she's missing that part.

Definitely check on the nitrate test if shes doing it right or it will show 0, its the only one where test bottle #2 has to be vigorously shaken.

. Is the activated carbon possibly causing a slow-down?

No, the carbon should be alright during cycling, it removes organics etc but should not effect anything with the live bacteria unless it says to remove it on either of the bottles by Seachem?

One other question... The sponge "looked clean" again. Maybe I shouldn't have done that? I thought if I cleaned it with the fish tank water it would be OK.

The bacteria is microscopic and is not rinsed away easily. Lightly rinse it weekly during cycling to get the food and gunk off of it but maybe just not super aggressively during this time since it is not adhered to anything at first.

Thanks again for all of your help!!!
Puisheb

 

OK so we did the water test last night
On the Master API Test Kit that we are using, the Ammonia was between the .25 and .5 color :-(
0 Nitrates and 0 Nitrites (and I shook the heck out of the bottles!)
So we did a 50% water change.
Used stability, prime, and seed

So later tonight when we test - if we find ammonia, how much water do we change out?

 

Are you using Tetra Safe Start as the "seed"? If so I don't think you're supposed to do any testing or water changes for at least 2 weeks because you'll get inaccurate readings and any water changes will interrupt the bacteria's ability to adhere to the media.

 

We're using SeaChem's Seed which states to be used daily with new tanks and with every water change for existing tanks. Since I assume we're not cycled because we don't have enough good bacteria, we've been using it. :-(

 

I'm trying to find information on the SeaChem Seed but all of the links that show up are for saltwater. I don't know if it would work on freshwater. Does it say it will on the label?

 

I would go with my earlier recommendation since you have Prime and Stability (which is in fact a bacteria supplement). I find dosing it twice a day helps more. You won't hurt by adding more at first.


If ammonia + nitrites = less than 1.0 -- dose prime and stability and check again in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater - do a large water change (at least 50%), dose Prime and stability and re-check in 24 hours.

The thing is you need enough ammonia (through your fish) to feed the growing bacteria and for the cycle to finish but not so much that you hurt your fish. Prime and stability will keep them safe, yet finish up the cycle. If you change out too much of the water too often it will take a LONG time. I cycled with fish a few years ago and mine took 12 weeks ugh! I was changing out 75% a day so it took FOREVER.


Edit: Dose Prime for the entire volume of the tank each day with the above.

 

Ahh ok. So one more follow-on question, where you state:

If ammonia + nitrites = less than 1.0 -- dose prime and stability and check again in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater - do a large water change (at least 50%), dose Prime and stability and re-check in 24 hours.

Does this mean adding together the results of the Ammonia and nitrites? So if Ammonia is .5 and Nitiries are .5 = 1? Of if either of them are 1 by themselves?

Also, when you say do daily dosing - is that for the prime for the entire tank twice a day?

Thanks a bunch for the help!!!!!

 

Ahh ok. So one more follow-on question, where you state:

If ammonia + nitrites = less than 1.0 -- dose prime and stability and check again in 24 hours
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater - do a large water change (at least 50%), dose Prime and stability and re-check in 24 hours.

Does this mean adding together the results of the Ammonia and nitrites? So if Ammonia is .5 and Nitiries are .5 = 1? Of if either of them are 1 by themselves?

Also, when you say do daily dosing - is that for the prime for the entire tank twice a day?

Thanks a bunch for the help!!!!!

You're welcome

Yes, adding together the results of the ammonia and the nitrites. If any combination of them added together comes to 1.0 time for a big water change.

Daily dosing is for the Prime while cycling (for entire volume of water). This keeps the ammonia and nitrites detoxified even though you have readings for them.

The stability you can dose twice a day if you want. If "might" help things move on faster.

 

OK Great! Thank you for the help here! Truly!

BTW, I lied before. One more question

So I see that the concentration it so watch ammonia and nitrites. Do I then not need to worry about nitrates?

 

OK Great! Thank you for the help here! Truly!

BTW, I lied before. One more question

So I see that the concentration it so watch ammonia and nitrites. Do I then not need to worry about nitrates?

Nitrates are the natural by product of ammonia and nitrite nitrification and are not as toxic as ammonia or nitrites. They are reduced through water changes. Also plants will lower nitrates by consuming ammonia and also nitrates. AI'm for under 20. A large weekly water change should keep them in that range.

Ask as many questions here as you want. There are lots if knowledgable folks here.

 

Look like we had some good news last night, the ammonia was between 0 - .25
Nitrites and Nitrates still at 0
We are using the stability and prime twice a day and the Seed once a day.

Keeping fingers crossed that we actually finish the cycle before 2016!

Will keep you posted! Thanks!

 

HI All!

So from Nov 16 - 19, for 4 days, we've had ammonia at 0 and nitrates and nitrites at 0. We've been dutifully adding SeaChem prime and stability twice a day. In order to determine if in fact we are finally cycled, do we stop the prime/stability for 24 hours and see what the ammonia/nitrates/nitrites are?

How do we know when we have finally reached "nirvana" arty0049: and have completed this cycling?

Thanks again for your patient help!

 

Your nitrates should be higher than zero. Are you smashing the heck out of bottle #2? You might be getting a false reading.

 

HI All!

How do we know when we have finally reached "nirvana" arty0049: and have completed this cycling?

Thanks again for your patient help!

You've done no water changes for four days right? And you've been adding in Prime once a day? and Stability twice a day?

If the answers to these questions are yes then I would stop dosing prime every day but continue to dose stability once daily. Only dose Prime now when you have readings for ammonia or nitrites or at water changes.

Let us know how things look in the next few days.

 

Yes, in fact, when my daughter does the testing, I'm standing there shaking, rocking, and rolling the bottles. ;-) Are there specific ways I'm supposed to do this?

 

You've done no water changes for four days right? And you've been adding in Prime once a day? and Stability twice a day?

Yes, we have done no water changes in 4 days. One note, we've added both prime and stability twice a day.

If the answers to these questions are yes then I would stop dosing prime every day but continue to dose stability once daily. Only dose Prime now when you have readings for ammonia or nitrites or at water changes.

Let us know how things look in the next few days.

So does this mean we are cycled? The great question is: Mom, when can I add more fish?

 

As far as the nitrate test goes just make sure to bang the bottom of Regent No. 2 on the palm of your hand or the counter top some.

As far as adding more fish......If you had nitrates I'd say start adding 2-3 a week max but because you have no nitrates I'm a little wary of that.

You have 16 fish in a 75 gallon and 8 of them are dalmation mollies who have a fairly big bio-load so I would expect "some" nitrates. The Seachem Seed has done a lot of work for you and I do think you're mostly cycled BUT again wary.

At this point I'd say if it was up to me I'd probably add some fish, but not a lot, like 2 or 3. If all stays good and you don't see ammonia or nitrites over the next four to five days then you can add more OR if you do see some ammonia or nitrites then you will want to wait for those to come back down to 0 before adding more.
Continue using the Seachem Seed. This must be a new product and I wonder if its a new name for stability or something. I'll have to look it up.

 

Thank you for the help! We literally just used the last of the Seed today and at $19/bottle and having gone through a few so far, I just can't justify buying anymore. It's looking like one fish tank is costing more than our 4 dogs!

Since she added the prime and stability today before school, we'll do the water test tonight and then tomorrow we'll add only Stability and test at night. For the Stability, should we add that twice a day or just once a day?

Assuming that our water tests come back OK, if we are to only add 2-3 fish, should it be the shrimp or snails instead and then later if all is OK, add the fish?

I know she wants kuhlI loaches (they look like banded eels of some sort) but they appear to be pack fish and thus she was going to buy several at once like she did with the mollies/tetra. I recall long ago having just one and we never saw it. Per our reading, if we have a small pack, they are likely to be more comfortable and less shy. So I assume she should hold off on those for now.

Thank you yet again for sticking with us while we go through this cycle!

 

The bio-load of snails and shrimp is super tiny so you could add some shrimp and some nerites all at once (are those the type you are looking at?).

I don't know anything about loaches but there are people here who do so you could start a new thread to find out if you need to add them all in at once together or if you can add in a couple at a time....

If you add in a couple of loaches along with snails or shrimp then I would continue using stability twice a day. Its totally up to you I just figure a little more dosed 12 hours apart is better than one dose 24 hours apart. I don't have any scientific data to back that up lol, just my opinion

I personally would continue to dose stability daily while you're adding fish. After all the fish are added and all your numbers stay at 0 you can stop dosing stability at all.

 

Thank you for the help!

I'll start the thread on loaches to see how many she should add at once.

I like the idea of splitting the dosgaes 12 hours apart - makes sense. I'll post what our data looks like later today and tomorrow.

 

As for the question on the snails: I looked at the different snails with my daughter and the nerite snails seem to be a good choice. Given cost, I'm thinking she could do 2-3 of those. As for shrimp... she likes the red cherry shrimp so I think those are the ones we would go with. We saw ghost shrimp in the local fish store here (not the big box store) and while she thought they were very cool, I can't find/see them easily. Since she and I do water changes and tank cleaning together, I am supremely confident in my abilities to kill and or suck up the ghost shrimp! ;-) At least the little red ones are more visible!

Thank you again for all of your help!

BTW, just in case you wanted to see - I attached a picture of her tank at this link below

 

The tank looks beautiful!

Here is how I keep from sucking up cherry shrimp, ghost shrimp and fry too!

I pick up one of those laundry fine garment bags at the drugstore (the ones with the little holes in them). I cut out a piece and rubber band it over the suction tube of my water changer. It works really well.

Cherry shrimp are super cute and pretty but they hide a lot. They are very shy. Ghost shrimp are definitely more out and about and as they get bigger will come right out and grab food and run with it. They're pretty fun to watch.

Nerites are good because they won't reproduce in fresh water though they will lay little white eggs around the tank. They look like grains of rock salt. They don't bother me but thought I'd mention it.

 

Great idea about the stocking! We had one of the molly fry get sucked into the filter where it must have lived there a few days before we fished it out! In the end, Mom or Dad must have eaten it anyway. Would putting a filter sponge over the intake also work? I'm thinking it may act as a first-step "filter". Any thoughts on that?

How about when you vacuum the gravel - how do you prevent these little guys from being sucked up? Or do they just run when they see the vacuum coming?

So these ghost shrimp... do they get big enough that you can actually see them? When we saw them in the store, I really had to look hard. I swear it was a game to just see who spotted them!

 

See below

Great idea about the stocking! We had one of the molly fry get sucked into the filter where it must have lived there a few days before we fished it out! In the end, Mom or Dad must have eaten it anyway. Would putting a filter sponge over the intake also work? I'm thinking it may act as a first-step "filter". Any thoughts on that?

I never block my intakes but I have sucked up a fry or two or three! They are always alive when I find them luckily. Lots of people I think may do the filter sponge but then I imagine all the gunk getting trapped there instead of inside the filter so I'm not sure.

How about when you vacuum the gravel - how do you prevent these little guys from being sucked up? Or do they just run when they see the vacuum coming?

That's actually where I use the mesh is over the gravel/sand vacuum.

So these ghost shrimp... do they get big enough that you can actually see them? When we saw them in the store, I really had to look hard. I swear it was a game to just see who spotted them!

Yes, they can actually get quite big, a couple of inches, you can't miss them and you find them all over your tank but they like to hide under decorations too. At the store they're tiny. The cherries stay small. If you get ghost shrimp buy double the amount you want because they are bred to be feeder fish and you usually lose some the first few days. The ones that make it seem to live quite a while.

 

Here is the link that I found for the Seachem Aquavitro Seed product.

As you can tell by reading the product information, it includes denitrification bacteria, which is unique to this product. No other products on the market (that I know of) contain these types of bacteria. They turn nitrates into nitrogen gas that will gas off into the atmosphere.

Your case is purely an example of how well this product works (at least at the beginning of an aquarium). I would be very curious to see its long term benefits and if the nitrates consistently remain at 0 or at least very low (5-10). I would consider even using another product that is part of the same line called "remediation" . This product claims to contain bacteria that will decompose waste and food from the tank much faster than it naturally would.

As long as you are following the directions on the labeling, and your ammonia and nitrite remain 0 after you are done using the seed for 7 days, I would say you are cycled and can add some fish. I believe it says to add a dose of the seed every time you do add fish to boost the bacteria colony. It also says to use a dose when doing a water change, however I don't think that would be necessary in most cases. Just like TSS and Stability say the same thing, but most of us don't and our tanks stay cycled just fine.

Lastly, I think I am going to search out a retailer and try one or both of these products and see if I can duplicate results.

 

Here is the link that I found for the Seachem Aquavitro Seed product.

As you can tell by reading the product information, it includes denitrification bacteria, which is unique to this product. No other products on the market (that I know of) contain these types of bacteria. They turn nitrates into nitrogen gas that will gas off into the atmosphere.
)

I emailed Seachem this afternoon because I was wondering what they had to say about Stability vs Seed. Here was the email I got back:

Thank you for your email. seed is a new bacterial blend and will contain the same blends of bacteria as Stability in addition to some elevated strains of bacteria for a more sturdy bio-filter and better organic waste control.
It will not prevent nitrates from accumulating, however the strains of bacteria will use ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as a food source and remove it from the system. For optimum nitrate control, we recommend the use of seed (or Stability) with Matrix. You can read more about this product here:

()

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!
Product Support 102086


I'm not sure how to read that exactly. It sounds like they're saying it doesn't effect nitrates directly but then they say it consumes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. It doesn't say it converts them which is what I would've expected.

 

Yes. What I am thinking is the nitrates are still being created as part of the nitrification process, but the denitrification bacteria is consuming the nitrates. In the OP's case, the nitrates created are enough to be consumed without having any show up on the tests. In a fully stocked tank where there is much more nitrates being created, I wonder how well it could keep up. Like the other bacteria, it needs bio-media to live within and consume the nitrates as water passes through it. I would think that is why they are saying to use it with their Matrix product since that is a highly porous media, which on its own helps to reduce nitrate levels, although not very much. You may need to add additional bio-media when the tank is fully stocked, so you have enough space for all these bacteria to live and process the waste.

Very interesting products that I wish I knew about earlier!

 

HI All!

First and foremost, again and again - thank you! We are learning so very much through you and this entire forum!

I realized that I posted a reply in the other thread on kuhlI loaches that I should have put here. I don't know how to move my reply - so here it is:

We have the AquaClear 110 filter that hangs on the tank, with a large sponge as the fist layer (on the bottom), then porous looking ceramic tubes (middle layer), and then activated carbon (on top).

BTW, I just did the test myself. The ammonia color appeared to be between 0 and .25 ... Nitrates and Nitrites both 0. :-(

I am so very grateful for your help!

EDIT: we do have one moss ball at the bottom. Could that be causing a problem?

 

HI All!

First and foremost, again and again - thank you! We are learning so very much through you and this entire forum!

I realized that I posted a reply in the other thread on kuhlI loaches that I should have put here. I don't know how to move my reply - so here it is:

We have the AquaClear 110 filter that hangs on the tank, with a large sponge as the fist layer (on the bottom), then porous looking ceramic tubes (middle layer), and then activated carbon (on top).

BTW, I just did the test myself. The ammonia color appeared to be between 0 and .25 ... Nitrates and Nitrites both 0. :-(

I am so very grateful for your help!

EDIT: we do have one moss ball at the bottom. Could that be causing a problem?

Nope. I don't see any problem at all with your tank cycling. The color difference between 0 and 0.25 is so marginal, it can very kit to kit and to the readers eye. Sometimes it always show up at 0.25 even though a tank has been cycled for a very long time. Even if it was 0.25, I wouldnt be too worried because that little bit can be fixed within a day before it harms any fish in the tank.

IMO, you can go ahead and add your fish. I would do as was suggested in the KuhlI Loach thread, up to 6 at a time.

When you do add more fish, add the dose of the seed product. You can stop dosing the daily stability and prime (just use Prime for water changes). After you add the fish, in a day or 2, test and see where you are at. If everything is looking good then just give them 7-10 days to get adjusted to the new tank before you add in any more. I think there should be 2 weeks between additions of fish, provided all is well; 1 week is the absolute minimum.

 

No, ha ha. I wish one moss ball could take care of nitrates

You want your nitrites 0, its just the lack of nitrates that has perplexed us but perhaps as you add more stock you'll start seeing some.

 

OK sounds great! Assuming that tomorrow we remain as we did today with the numbers, we'll be off to the fish store over the weekend. The last time we were there, they had albino kuhlI loaches - not the striped ones that she and I found rather pretty. So while we may well get the shrimp (maybe we'll try both the cherry and the ghost), nerite snails, and a bristlenose pleco, we may not get the loaches until they have them at the store. I was beginning to look up online where to buy them in case they don't have them, so if you have any suggestions - I'm all ears!

Thank you so very much again and again for all of your help!

 

Thank you again for your help!

Yes, that moss ball is a cute little thing. I didn't think it would be powerful enough to eliminate chemicals from a 75 gallon, but then until I found this forum, I didn't know squat about the nitrogen cycle! Now, our daughter looks like a chemist with her test kit and I find myself spending way too much time reading about fish and water! Tho I admit, I am getting reeled in! At some point, I think I will create my own tank - though I think I would go for the cichlids. From some research, it seems I could create a "saltwater looking tank" since they are so colorful and the deco in the tank has to allow for a lot of hiding spots, etc! Aaacck - I can barely help my daughter get one tank set up and already I find myself thinking up how to get a 2nd one! Yikes!

Thank you again! I'll let you know what happens with our water and fish ! ;D

 

Aaacck - I can barely help my daughter get one tank set up and already I find myself thinking up how to get a 2nd one! Yikes!

Thank you again! I'll let you know what happens with our water and fish ! ;D

AKA MTS.....

Multiple Tank Syndrome

 

Yikes! We appeared to be good and ready to go with getting shrimp (going with the Ghost), nerite snails, and a pleco. Then, we see that the pH is 6.0. Our local fish store told us to do a 30% water change. We changed the water on Sat morning. When we checked pH on Sat night it looked what the local fish store would be good, 7.6 It remained like that for Sun morning and night. I checked this afternoon (Mon) and pH plummeted back to 6. So, we didn't pick up any new residents as we were told that with such low pH likely they would die.

Any ideas what is causing pH to be so low?

The fish store told us to bring in a baggie of tap water, tank water, gravel, and pictures of the decorations used in the tank. They said it could be the kH, but I don't know anything about this. Looks like I have to read up on it.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

 

So the stability of PH is directly related to your KH number (carbonate hardness). If its low which it sounds like it is, it would be worth your while getting a GH/KH API test kit. Also, snails and shrimp will need a fairly high GH (general hardness) and so will the mollies. I did not go back and re-read so correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking you had dalmation mollies so far?

KH can be increased a few different ways. The easiest way for me is to simply add in Seachem's Alkaline Buffer at every water change to bring KH up to about 5 or 6 drops (dKh) which is in the 100ppm range. Some people like to add in crushed coral in a mesh bag to a filter or use some aragonite substrate to go a more natural way.

GH, general hardness can be brought up by adding in a product like Seachem Replenish (it will bring up GH but won't effect KH). It is basically calcium and magnesium in a liquid form. You can buy liquid calcium at the pet store in other brands. For mollies, snails, shrimp I would aI'm for 9-10 drops (dGh) or around the 175-200ppm range. Crushed coral will bring up GH some along with KH but I don't think it will be enough.

Also, do you know if you're using a water softener?

Hope that answers some of those questions. When you initially take your sample in, tell them to write down the exact numbers they get.