Starting over due to bacterial infection… start tank over?

I lost my betta sorority to a bad, fast moving bacterial infection. I’m assuming I’ll need to clean everything thoroughly and start the cycling process afresh? Is boiling water enough or do I need a bleach mixture? I have a glass tank, sponge filter, heater, silk decor, plastic decor and 2 caves. Thank you!!

 

Welcome to FishLore! Sorry you lost your betta sorority.

If it were me I would clean with a solution of 1 part bleach to 20 parts water.

 

I’m assuming I’ll need to clean everything thoroughly and start the cycling process afresh?

Not at all. Some high volume waterchanges and letting the tank run for a week or two without fish is enough.

Most often the bacteria are omnipresent and opportunistic. It takes a low ranking, stressed and hence weakened fish to start. The fish falls sick, multiplies the bacteria, spreads them. Without hosts the bacteria will go down in numbers again. If the new fish are not subjected to too much stress bacteria are not your problem.

Can you probably show a picture of the tank? I have suspicion.

 

Not at all. Some high volume waterchanges and letting the tank run for a week or two without fish is enough.

Most often the bacteria are omnipresent and opportunistic. It takes a low ranking, stressed and hence weakened fish to start. The fish falls sick, multiplies the bacteria, spreads them. Without hosts the bacteria will go down in numbers again. If the new fish are not subjected to too much stress bacteria are not your problem.

Can you probably show a picture of the tank? I have suspicion.

It’s wrecked from having to net the fish out.

Not at all. Some high volume waterchanges and letting the tank run for a week or two without fish is enough.

Most often the bacteria are omnipresent and opportunistic. It takes a low ranking, stressed and hence weakened fish to start. The fish falls sick, multiplies the bacteria, spreads them. Without hosts the bacteria will go down in numbers again. If the new fish are not subjected to too much stress bacteria are not your problem.

Can you probably show a picture of the tank? I have suspicion.

Two fish died from the cotton like stuff around their mouths. 4 had bad bloody gills and bloody areas on other parts of their body, and all were lethargic.

Welcome to FishLore! Sorry you lost your betta sorority.

If it were me I would clean with a solution of 1 part bleach to 20 parts water.

Thank you!! I only had them a week, but sat with them every morning having coffee, so got attached to them

 

Um....who wants to tell them

 

That tank is not set up for more than one betta. That alone would cause a lot of stress.

 

It’s wrecked from having to net the fish out.

Two fish died from the cotton like stuff around their mouths. 4 had bad bloody gills and bloody areas on other parts of their body, and all were lethargic.

Thank you!! I only had them a week, but sat with them every morning having coffee, so got attached to them

You should've done some more research on bettas and their correct habitat before adopting six of them

 

Mystery solved. Your tank is way too small for a sorority so it is unsurprising that they were stressed to the point of becoming deathly ill. Especially if the tank is uncycled then water quality would also certainly have contributed to the stress and illness in the tank.

 

That tank is not set up for more than one betta. That alone would cause a lot of stress.

Idk if you can find my first post, but I am new and my local “reputable” fish store sold me that ten gallon tank AND a sorority of 6 betta AND 3 endlers. Luckily the betta picked on the endlers so I pulled them out within 15-20 minutes and put them in their own tank. The whole story is… I forgot the title.

 

Here's a good place to start
Betta Sororities Starter Guide + Tips and Tricks - Aquarium Article

 

Thread 'Does it get better?!? I’m at my wits’ end with this hobby'
Does it get better?!? I’m at my wits’ end with this hobby | Livebearers Forum | 519958

 

You were badly misinformed by that LFS for sure.

I think sororities are almost always a bad idea that sooner or later ends in violence. I know someone who has one that works. Its a 75 gallon tank and planted to the max.

So I'd suggest you do some research on the web page and chose something more likely to work than a betta sorority.

I know advice for new hobbiest can come off as harsh, but people here will help you figure it out.

 

Here's a good place to start
Betta Sororities Starter Guide + Tips and Tricks - Aquarium Article

Please don’t judge me, there was even an edit within the link you sent saying, the writer “since changed their mind that it was okay to have 4-6 in a 10 gallon tank.” The catastrophe was a mixture of overstocked and that the tank was not cycled, at all. So the whole situation was a train wreck.

You were badly misinformed by that LFS for sure.

I think sororities are almost always a bad idea that sooner or later ends in violence. I know someone who has one that works. Its a 75 gallon tank and planted to the max.

So I'd suggest you do some research on the web page and chose something more likely to work than a betta sorority.

I know advice for new hobbiest can come off as harsh, but people here will help you figure it out.

Yep… I’m feeling a little judged right now. Thank you for your kindness and empathy.

 

The internet is blunt form of communication. I'm amazed that fish stores will lead newcomers astray just to make one sale. For all they know, they might make a lot of money off you if you get into the hobby.

Do your research and take your time and it will get better. It's really not that hard once you do.

 

Okay, so I know that betta sororities should be kept in larger tanks, BUT in my own experience, I had a group that did just fine in a 15 gallon with a school of Ember tetras.
I know of someone who has a betta sorority in a ten gallon. It can be done. We all make mistakes, and since I know that you have a twenty gallon with guppies, maybe if you still want to do a sorority, you could get another group, and switch them with the guppies.
I'm sorry you feel judged.

 

Please don’t judge me, there was even an edit within the link you sent saying, the writer “since changed their mind that it was okay to have 4-6 in a 10 gallon tank.” The catastrophe was a mixture of overstocked and that the tank was not cycled, at all. So the whole situation was a train wreck.

Yep… I’m feeling a little judged right now. Thank you for your kindness and empathy.

Well you got me there but it also says that a 10 gallon is the bare minimum with the lowest success rate it also suggests to have a mildly planted tank along with more hardscape so each betta can break sight with an aggressor

 

Okay, so I know that betta sororities should be kept in larger tanks, BUT in my own experience, I had a group that did just fine in a 15 gallon with a school of Ember tetras.
I know of someone who has a betta sorority in a ten gallon. It can be done. We all make mistakes, and since I know that you have a twenty gallon with guppies, maybe if you still want to do a sorority, you could get another group, and switch them with the guppies.
I'm sorry you feel judged.

Thank you so much! Right now I’m treating and waiting to see if the guppies get sick. I (stupidly) thought I was transferring good bacteria to the newest tank, by taking handfuls of rocks from the sorority’s tank to theirs before any symptoms showed. So right now I’m just trying to keep alive what I have and get the empty tank cleaned and well cycled properly.

 

The thought wasn't bad. You didn't know they were sick, and there is usually Bacteria on the rocks.
You're doing the best you can, and that's awesome. We all start somewhere, and even though you've had a pretty rocky start, you can still bounce back, and start doing some awesome stuff

 

Well you got me there but it also says that a 10 gallon is the bare minimum with the lowest success rate it also suggests to have a mildly planted tank along with more hardscape so each betta can break sight with an aggressor

I had 5-6 Monstra deliciosa cuttings lined up on each side end of the tank that they used for shelter and one of the caves is down in the picture and there were more silk plants, but as they got sick I started pulling stuff out. I’ve learned from my mistake….. but apparently that doesn’t matter. Only 2 people have answered my question. I’ll go with the very first answer. Thank you jdhef !!!

 

Believe me when I say that you are far frombeing the first person who has gotten bad advice from the fish store. One would think that the fish store would be where you would go for the best advice (at least that's what I thought when starting out) yet it turns out it is really the worst place to get advice for some reason.

Don't feel bad, I feel very confident that every fish keeper has a tale of woe from when they first started keeping fish. The best thing to have when keeping fish is experience, but sadly, experiance comes from making mistakes and having problems.

So don't feel bad and don't feel judged, just get back on that horse and ride again!

 

To the OP: I saw your other post, and now this one. All you need is to CYCLE your tank first.

Look up aquarium nitrogen cycling. This process takes at least a month naturally and involves adding some ammonia to the tank consistently. Your tanks are brand new and not cycled and you won't be able to keep fish until then.

Forget about treatments, there is no point. Your fish will likely not survive the cycling process, but there are tricks we can use to increase the odds... eg feeding very little, water change immediately at any signs of stress, search for used filter media from other hobbyists etc.

 

To the OP: I saw your other post, and now this one. All you need is to CYCLE your tank first.

Look up aquarium nitrogen cycling. This process takes at least a month naturally and involves adding some ammonia to the tank consistently. Your tanks are brand new and not cycled and you won't be able to keep fish until then.

Forget about treatments, there is no point. Your fish will likely not survive the cycling process, but there are tricks we can use to increase the odds... eg feeding very little, water change immediately at any signs of stress, search for used filter media from other hobbyists etc.

Thanks. What you said is exactly my plan. The guppies aren’t looking good at all this morning (get got rocks from the sick tank), so I think they’re goners, too. So I’ll clean both the tanks and cycle them properly.

Believe me when I say that you are far frombeing the first person who has gotten bad advice from the fish store. One would think that the fish store would be where you would go for the best advice (at least that's what I thought when starting out) yet it turns out it is really the worst place to get advice for some reason.

Don't feel bad, I feel very confident that every fish keeper has a tale of woe from when they first started keeping fish. The best thing to have when keeping fish is experience, but sadly, experiance comes from making mistakes and having problems.

So don't feel bad and don't feel judged, just get back on that horse and ride again!

Thank you!!!!! Giddy-up…….…
(after cycling). LOL!!

 

You are being judged a bit, that's the truth. Because you did mess up, and its important that you own that mistake. The LFS gave you bad info. But you are the fishkeeper, and its your responsibility to do the research. The information that would have helped you is readily available. You didn't do the reading, and now you suffer the consequences.

But I don't want you to feel discouraged. You certainly aren't the first person to make a mistake like this, and you won't be the last. We've all made mistakes in this hobby, some pretty big ones in fact. What matters now is that you take responsibility for the mistake, learn from it, and do better in the future. It seems that you are on track for that.

 

You are being judged a bit, that's the truth. Because you did mess up, and its important that you own that mistake. The LFS gave you bad info. But you are the fishkeeper, and its your responsibility to do the research. The information that would have helped you is readily available. You didn't do the reading, and now you suffer the consequences.

But I don't want you to feel discouraged. You certainly aren't the first person to make a mistake like this, and you won't be the last. We've all made mistakes in this hobby, some pretty big ones in fact. What matters now is that you take responsibility for the mistake, learn from it, and do better in the future. It seems that you are on track for that.

I’m not discouraged about starting over with more knowledge, but I definitely won’t ask any more questions on this forum.

 

My appologies about everything that happened, really. I’ve been in the same place before with a cruddy lfs who only tells you things to make a bigger profit. I think its safe to say that almost everyone on here has made a dangerous mistake that could’ve been avoided by reading a bit more. Thats the way it is. Learning mistakes are hard and they take a toll on you. Although I am the biggest advocate for research before buying, I’m not here to scold you. Fish keeping is a hobby someone coming into would never expect to be so complicated. In my opinion, whats important is that you obviously learned from a unfortunate mistake, and are taking the next step to do whats best for the fish. The fact you’re asking questions and looking to learn is already more than what many will do, as many in a simlar situation would just throw another fish in to replace the dead ones.

I know people can be what seems a little harsh or rude, but in reality they just want to help you and more importantly, the fish themselves. Fishkeeping especially is a hobby where people will nitpick everything down to the bone until the owner listens. And that’s okay, because in reality, it needs to be heard. This fourm is a great place with many knowledagble people. A little bit of cold hard truth can be a neccesity, but don’t let that scare you away from a forum, as many will tell you the same thing people are saying here.

 

I’m not discouraged about starting over with more knowledge, but I definitely won’t ask any more questions on this forum.

We care for living things in this hobby. That comes with a burden of responsibility. My comment was not intended to shame you, but to highlight that responsibility. We all have a responsibility to do the research. And the animals pay the price when we don't.

If you don't feel comfortable getting the information you need here, then that is fine. Just be sure to get your information from somewhere reliable.

But I will say, I think that the response you received from this community, including myself, was quite reasonable, and balanced. I assure you that your story would not be received with nearly as much empathy on many other forums.

 

My appologies about everything that happened, really. I’ve been in the same place before with a cruddy lfs who only tells you things to make a bigger profit. I think its safe to say that almost everyone on here has made a dangerous mistake that could’ve been avoided by reading a bit more. Thats the way it is. Learning mistakes are hard and they take a toll on you. Although I am the biggest advocate for research before buying, I’m not here to scold you. Fish keeping is a hobby someone coming into would never expect to be so complicated. In my opinion, whats important is that you obviously learned from a unfortunate mistake, and are taking the next step to do whats best for the fish. The fact you’re asking questions and looking to learn is already more than what many will do, as many in a simlar situation would just throw another fish in to replace the dead ones.

I know people can be what seems a little harsh or rude, but in reality they just want to help you and more importantly, the fish themselves. Fishkeeping especially is a hobby where people will nitpick everything down to the bone until the owner listens. And that’s okay, because in reality, it needs to be heard. This fourm is a great place with many knowledagble people. A little bit of cold hard truth can be a neccesity, but don’t let that scare you away from a forum, as many will tell you the same thing people are saying here.

JTW
The reason to not ask any more questions is….. my question was answered by ONE PERSON.

This thread got so unnecessarily far off the rails…. I ALREADY KNEW my mistakes…… the over population and the lack of cycling… etc etc etc…. there was no need to crucify me over and over and over…

Now that I think about it, 5 of the females bettas I bought came from a tank that had a yellow “Do not sale” sticker on it. I asked the girl about that and she said, “You're fine, that’s an old sticker.” So I probably bought sick fish from the beginning.

But anyway….. if I have another question… guess what? It won’t get answered, and I will be crucified ALL over again and ALL my mistakes will get rehashed.

It’s unfortunate that since I’m new I can’t quietly message and reach out to the nice people and ask them questions.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way.
There are ways you can ask just one person, like on their message boards until their profile.
I think one of the reasons your mistake was rehashed was because the people that replied to this thread didn't see what you said in your other thread.
Please don't let this experience define how you think of this forum. Most of the people here are really nice, and will try to help you. I can say from experience (Losing a sorority from a fungal infection) that the people here want to help.
If you have another question, feel free to ask on my message board. I want to be able to help, and I feel bad that you feel this way about your experience.

 

I also feel quite bad about this whole thing. I’ve been back and forth reading both threads, and I don’t think anyone had the intent to belittle you or shame you. Like it was already said, I think your og thread was perhaps not seen by everyone, hence the reaction. Anyways, sorry you got off on the wrong foot, and I hope everything works out well for you. Doing things properly this time will prove to be a MUCH less stressful experience and hopefully you’ll come to love the hobby as much as the people on here.

 

The reason to not ask any more questions is….. my question was answered by ONE PERSON.

This thread got so unnecessarily far off the rails…. I ALREADY KNEW my mistakes…… the over population and the lack of cycling… etc etc etc…. there was no need to crucify me over and over and over…

Now that I think about it, 5 of the females bettas I bought came from a tank that had a yellow “Do not sale” sticker on it. I asked the girl about that and she said, “You're fine, that’s an old sticker.” So I probably bought sick fish from the beginning.

But anyway….. if I have another question… guess what? It won’t get answered, and I will be crucified ALL over again and ALL my mistakes will get rehashed.

It’s unfortunate that since I’m new I can’t quietly message and reach out to the nice people and ask them questions.

I can understand that. From your point of view, it would certainly seem like people are piling on.

But to give you some perspective from the other side.... Bettas are one of the most abused fish in this hobby. Its a bit of a sore spot in the community.

So when people see a story about a brand new 10g tank with 6 bettas plus other fish, everyone feels like they need to chime in. Bettas are a fish that a lot of people feel a need to advocate for.... and for good reason.

So if you feel a bit overwhelmed by the response, understand that people aren't just responding to you and your specific problem today. They are responding to the larger problem of how bettas are treated in the hobby overall.

You've inadvertently stumbled into a topic that draws a lot of attention. So don't take it personally. Most other situations you find yourself in won't get this much of a response.

 

JTW
The reason to not ask any more questions is….. my question was answered by ONE PERSON.

This thread got so unnecessarily far off the rails…. I ALREADY KNEW my mistakes…… the over population and the lack of cycling… etc etc etc…. there was no need to crucify me over and over and over…

Now that I think about it, 5 of the females bettas I bought came from a tank that had a yellow “Do not sale” sticker on it. I asked the girl about that and she said, “You're fine, that’s an old sticker.” So I probably bought sick fish from the beginning.

But anyway….. if I have another question… guess what? It won’t get answered, and I will be crucified ALL over again and ALL my mistakes will get rehashed.

It’s unfortunate that since I’m new I can’t quietly message and reach out to the nice people and ask them questions.

Actually MacZ answered your question too and stated that bacteria are omnipresent and are opportunistic meaning they will infect weakened (stressed) fish. The whole point of asking about your setup was to determine if your betta's environment caused significant stress that then allowed for infection to take hold. No need to be defensive. Accept responsibility, learn and move on.

I personally wouldn't bleach the tank, all you need to do is a few large WCs and cycle it fully without fish.

 

Actually MacZ answered your question too and stated that bacteria are omnipresent and are opportunistic meaning they will infect weakened (stressed) fish. The whole point of asking about your setup was to determine if your betta's environment caused significant stress that then allowed for infection to take hold. No need to be defensive. Accept responsibility, learn and move on.

I personally wouldn't bleach the tank, all you need to do is a few large WCs and cycle it fully without fish.

FoldedCheese
Actually, I took MacZ’s comment as a “Hold up… send a picture, and I’ll finish my answer” kind of response.

The 3 guppies in the 20 gallon tank that I put rocks in from the infected tank are starting to go down hill by acting funny and looking sick. I check ammonia FREQUENTLY and have been treating them with Erythromycin since Wednesday.

If this bacteria infection is THAT brutal and contagious, shouldn’t some cleaning and sterilization be done?

 

FoldedCheese
Actually, I took MacZ’s comment as a “Hold up… send a picture, and I’ll finish my answer” kind of response.

The 3 guppies in the 20 gallon tank that I put rocks in from the infected tank are starting to go down hill by acting funny and looking sick. I check ammonia FREQUENTLY and have been treating them with Erythromycin since Wednesday.

If this bacteria infection is THAT brutal and contagious, shouldn’t some cleaning and sterilization be done?

Ah I see, I personally interpreted the comment differently.

The 3 guppies are also in an uncycled tank so water quality again could be stressing them out. Guppies are also known to be horribly overbred and have weak genetics. Medicating without knowing the exact type of bacteria (gram negative or positive) can also cause significant stress to the fish because it is hard on their systems. A lot of fish die from being overly or proactively medicated. Just throwing out possible explanations for what you're seeing in them. My point is that stress is the #1 killer of fish because it weakens their immune systems and allows for opportunistic infections.

If the bettas had such an aggressive, contagious bacterial infection then all the other fish from your lfs would be sick too and the guppies would be long dead by now. Guppies are a lot less hardy then bettas. I'll be honest though I'm not a disease expert so I can't fully rule out the possibility. I was mostly just agreeing with MacZ and stating my own opinion on what I would do. To me it's a clear cut case of overstocking in an uncycled tank that led to an opportunistic infection.

 

I can understand that. From your point of view, it would certainly seem like people are piling on.

But to give you some perspective from the other side.... Bettas are one of the most abused fish in this hobby. Its a bit of a sore spot in the community.

So when people see a story about a brand new 10g tank with 6 bettas plus other fish, everyone feels like they need to chime in. Bettas are a fish that a lot of people feel a need to advocate for.... and for good reason.

So if you feel a bit overwhelmed by the response, understand that people aren't just responding to you and your specific problem today. They are responding to the larger problem of how bettas are treated in the hobby overall.

You've inadvertently stumbled into a topic that draws a lot of attention. So don't take it personally. Most other situations you find yourself in won't get this much of a response.

JTW
Thank you so much!!! You summed up and perfectly articulated this whole situation! I appreciate it.

And I agree with you about bettas. They are seen to most of the world as being “indispensable” since they are mostly sold in plastic cups and available almost anywhere (like Walmart). I have never seen them that way and TRIED to do the responsible thing (with a tank) but I’ve been (hopefully) forgiven for those indiscretions and we’ve moved on

 

Are you seeing evidence of the bacterial infection in the guppies?

From what I gather, you only seen the bettas with the infection correct?

If you aren't seeing symptoms in the guppies, then I would stop the treatment. Their behavior is more likely caused by stress than disease. And medicating them will only contribute to that stress if they aren't infected. Keep their water clean, keep a close eye on them, and let them settle in.

I have found that aquarium salt is quite useful when bringing in new guppies. I always use it for new guppies in quarantine. And it can also help with bacterial infections. Aquarium Coop has a pretty good guide on how to use it.

I don't think the bacterial infection is the root of your troubles here... unless of course you are seeing direct evidence of it.

 

Are you seeing evidence of the bacterial infection in the guppies?

From what I gather, you only seen the bettas with the infection correct?

If you aren't seeing symptoms in the guppies, then I would stop the treatment. Their behavior is more likely caused by stress than disease. And medicating them will only contribute to that stress if they aren't infected. Keep their water clean, keep a close eye on them, and let them settle in.

I have found that aquarium salt is quite useful when bringing in new guppies. And it can also help with bacterial infections. Aquarium Coop has a pretty good guide on how to use it.

I don't think the bacterial infection is the root of your troubles here... unless of course you are seeing direct evidence of it.

JTW this is one thing that was new after being put in the 20 gallon tank. It’s on both sides.
And, I’ve added aquarium salt.

 

FoldedCheese
Actually, I took MacZ’s comment as a “Hold up… send a picture, and I’ll finish my answer” kind of response.

The 3 guppies in the 20 gallon tank that I put rocks in from the infected tank are starting to go down hill by acting funny and looking sick. I check ammonia FREQUENTLY and have been treating them with Erythromycin since Wednesday.

If this bacteria infection is THAT brutal and contagious, shouldn’t some cleaning and sterilization be done?

Surprisingly, no. The bacteria is natural and will always be in the tank. With no weakened fish to latch onto, any extra colonies will quickly die and will go back to low numbers that can't do any harm. Compare it to breathing in mold spores in the air (as they always are) vs breathing in a house that's rotting with black mold. When things are normal our immune systems will fight off pathogens.

But the reason you don't want to bleach is because there's actually bacteria that thrives in clean tanks, such as columnaris, and even worse mycobacteria (fish tuberculosis) which is zoonotic (can infect humans). Bleach doesn't discriminate, it will kill the healthy bacteria that would usually keep things like diatoms and disease causing bacteria such as the ones I mentioned from being able to grow and colonize. The reason for that is because they are very weak and slow growing bacteria, but they don't need much food. The healthy bacteria you want grows quickly but it needs a lot of nutrients first, so when you bleach everything you basically guarantee you'll end up with recurring infections (since people very rarely bleach everything 100% effectively and all it takes is a tiny amount to survive, this is confirmed with lab tests btw).

For what it's worth, I got absolutely schooled by I think it was Macz and someone else last year when my first betta Flower was sick and slowly dying. I was definitely over medicating and I didn't fully understand the importance of a bioactive, healthy aquarium ecosystem. I was unintentionally hurting my fish and it took multiple people bluntly explaining why I was wrong for me to get it. That knowledge has helped me tremendously since then, even though I wasn't able to save flower. I didn't want to hear it at the time, but I'm grateful to have this forum with all these knowledgable people here willing to share their wisdom. I hope you stick around!

 

JTW this is one thing that was new after being put in the 20 gallon tank. It’s on both sides.
And, I’ve added aquarium salt.

I'm afraid I can't tell much from the pictures. What areas in particular do you see something?

 

Fae
Thank you! So please let me see if I’m hearing this correctly….. even if I bleach the tank and all it’s contents, columnaris bacteria will still eventually make it’s way back into the tank. The differentiating factor in new fish contracting the infection or not is their immunity and stress level?

I'm afraid I can't tell much from the pictures. What areas in particular do you see something?

 

Unless he has scales missing that looks like natural coloring to me. Hard to tell the photos are a little blurry.