Stabilizing My Tank (warning: Long)

36 gallon bowfront freshwater aquarium
no live plants
2 Penguin 150 filters
Current fish: three 1-1.5" guppies (2 female, 1 male), one 2" fantail goldfish, one 3" long pleco, and four small mollies, and one big, honkin' 6 inch long fantail goldfish (story about this guy to follow).

So, we live in far northern Minnesota, where the nearest aquarium store is 2.5 hours away. When my daughter decided she wanted an aquarium for her 11th birthday, we knew getting fish would be challenging. I've had numerous tanks in the past, though, so I'm definitely not a newbie.

We set up the tank, used a TSS for a boost, and let it run for about two weeks. After ammonia, pH, nitrates, and nitrates tested within safe range, we ordered three danios and two small goldfish from LiveAquaria. (What I'd forgotten over the years was essential - don't mix gf with tropicals.)

That first shipment got delayed an extra day because of storms in KY, so they arrived extremely stressed and all died in 48 hours. LiveAquaria replaced them. They all died over the course of a week or so, too, even though water is testing within safe ranges. Figured at this point that ordering fish online is probably not the way to go.

Found a local molly breeder, went and picked up four of those (they are all still alive, well, and reproducing). Let the tank settle for a month before deciding to add more fish. Found a place - AquariumFish - that said their overnight deliveries always come before noon the next day. Figuring that would mean many less hours in transport, we ordered two small goldfish and three guppies.

Guess what? The delivery was delayed by...you guessed it...storms in KY. Rather than have the fish spend way too long in transport, I stalked the UPS delivery guy (thank god we know him personally), and caught up with him around 11am when he was transferring packages from truck to truck. I waited while he found my package, brought it home, and set about acclimation.

Everything looked good! All the fish seemed healthy, active, and vibrant. But the stress of shipping sometimes rears its head later, so we were prepared.

What we weren't prepared for was the "free" 6-inch long fancy goldfish they included in the order. Apparently there is a box you have to uncheck if you don't want free fish delivered with your order. (What? Yeah, that's what I thought.) This fish is clearly too big for our setup, but not wanting to deep six the little (big) guy, we named him Mr. Big Fins and hoped for the best.

The day after they were introduced to the tank, I see a fish lice on Mr. Big Fins. Thankfully, I've dealt with this before, but it's not making me any happier at AquariumFish for sending me not only a fish many times larger than my tank can handle, but with a stowaway fish lice to boot. I remove Mr. BF from the tank, remove the offending lice, gross out my kids by insisting they look at it, and all is well. Mr. BF takes it in stride.

That was a couple weeks ago, and now of course, my nitrogen cycle is completely jacked up, I can't get the ammonia down, my pH is crazily low (I added pH 7.5 to the last water change to combat this) and my mollys are lying lethargically on the bottom of the tank (though they do perk up at feeding time or if I am watching them).

Luckily, no one's died yet except for one of the two small goldfish, but he died due to transport stress 2 days after they were delivered.

So, I am doing 30% water changes with the addition of ammo lock each time, every other day.

I'm just about to do today's water change, and here are my readings:
Ammonia: 4ppm
pH: Still low at 6.5-6.8
Nitrites: between 0-.25ppm
Nitrates: 20ppm

Sigh.

I ordered another bottle of TSS. Should I use it?

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

I am so sorry to hear about all the problems you are having. Hopefully I will be able to help you.

My suggestion would be, Ditch the ammo-lock and get a bottle of Seachem Prime. Prime is a water conditioner but has the added bonus of neutralizing low amounts of ammonia thus making the water safer for your fish while the cycle catches up to the bio-load of so many fish. A lot of folks are having problems a lot like you while using ammo-lock.

I could be wrong and I and sure someone will correct me if I am but I think your bio-load is too much for TSS to work properly. I've never used it but have read a lot of post from folks that have and the consensus seems to be that high ammonia can overwhelm the TSS and cause it to fail.

At this point in your cycle I recommend water changes and lots of them. Have you tested the PH of your source water? Is it as low as your tank water or is it dropping after it is added to the tank?

Get your ammonia levels down by doing water changes and add Prime with each water change while getting it down and then test for ammonia daily. If it is above 1.0ppm do a water change to get it back below 1 and then add enough Prime for the full volume of your tank. If it is below 1 just add enough Prime for the full volume of the tank. Run the ammonia test daily and either do a water change if necessary or just add Prime if you don't need to do a water change that day.

 

You'd need a seriously large water change to get the ammonia down. >75% at minimum and then have to hit it up with another water change tomorrow likely. If PH falls below 6, your post doesn't say if it has, the good bacteria die off. I think ammo lock can only lock up 1 ppm of ammonia per treatment max but not positive about that.

 

Seachem Prime ordered. I'll just keep on doing this water changes and see how it fares! (BTW, pH did drop really, really low, so I'm probably at square one again...ugh.

 

Seachem Prime ordered. I'll just keep on doing this water changes and see how it fares! (BTW, pH did drop really, really low, so I'm probably at square one again...ugh.

Good job on getting the Prime.

Possibly but maybe not 'specially if it didn't drop and stay at or below 6.0 for any length of time. If I understand correctly the bacteria struggles to grow in a tank with low PH. If I understand correctly, A low PH turns ammonia into ammonium and ammonium isn't a good food for the bacteria we are trying to grow.

Have you tested your tap water? It is always a good idea to know what is in it and the PH level. That way we have a better idea as to what to expect when doing a water change.

I know I have soft water thus a low PH coming out of the tap. I run crushed coral and seashells in my tank to stabilize it at a higher level. It takes a bit of time for that to happen though because both crushed coral have to dissolve and that happens very slowly. Mine holds at 7.2 More crushed coral would probably raise it higher but 7.2 works for me so I keep it there.

 

So sorry to hear about your struggles. Mattgirl is correct about the TSS not working properly. Tetra states that a reading of 4ppm of Ammonia and greater is just as harmful to TSS as is it to your fish so I think by this point we can say your TSS has failed.

How exactly did you use the TSS?

I would do as Mattgirl says and get that Ammonia reading down as low as you can.

 

Mattgirl, pH of my tap water is 8.3.

Would I be better off using bottled water?

 

Mattgirl, pH of my tap water is 8.3.

Would I be better off using bottled water?

I would continue using your tap water. 8.3 is fine for most fish. A stable PH is much more important than a specific number. Since the PH is that high in your tap water the water changes should keep the PH in the tank high enough to keep the cycle growing. Just keep an eye on it and if it continues to drop maybe we can find the reason for it.

 

Okay. How long should it take to stabilize things in the tank? Or WILL it stabilize, with that big SS goldfish in there mucking things up?

 

TSS does get killed off if the ammonia is over 4. Even 3 ppm will kill a good amount of it.

Ammo lock also causes it problems. It can't eat the ammonia that ammolock affects.

Just for fyi, the way I cycled a crashed 20 gallon with 4 mollies, a bn pleco and an ammonia over 6 ppm with daily doses of ammo lock is:

I added two small bags of fluval biomedia to the open area in my filter to increase the size of the colony that could grow in my filter.

I did repeated 50% water changes over 2 days until I got my ammonia to less than 2 ppm.

I waited 24 hours then dosed my 20 gallon tank with the amount of tss recommended for a 30 gallon tank.

Then I didnt test for 48 hours so I didnt freak myself out.

Then, when I tested, as long as the ammonia was under 2 ppm I didnt worry because tss will give readings of 1.5 to 2 ppm of ammonia for the first week.

I put enough water for a 25% change in a bucket and conditioned it, so that I had aged water that wouldn't hurt the tss just in case.

When my nitrates were over 40 ppm and headed into the danger zone, I did a small 25% water change with my aged water then filled the bucket again and conditioned it so it could sit for 24 hour before the next test in case the nitrates were high again.

My ammonia and nitrites were 0 at the end of the first week and I had to do several small water changes the second week due to nitrates but that evened put and my tank's been good with weekly changes since.

 

OK here are my readings post-30% water change with addition of ammo lock and a bit of aquarium salt:

pH: 7-7.2
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: between 5-10ppm

 

Looking better already! Once that Prime comes (hopefully soon) I'd do a large water change to get that Ammonia down to 1ppm or lower and then dose with Prime. Wait 24 hours after dosing Prime (very important) then add a well shaken appropriate sized bottle of TSS again. If you still get spikes during your next TSS attempt then I would follow the advice of Ravenahra especially the part about leaving conditioned water in a bucket for future water changes should you get that spike again. The reason for leaving the water in the bucket for 24 hrs is to ensure the Prime doesn't kill your TSS.

 

The Prime is coming on Thursday, so I'll do a 50% change then.

Should I be changing out the filter media, too? I have a second slot for additional filter media. Should I add another a second one?

 

Don't change your filter media unless it is completely falling apart, even if it is coated in sludge you can simply take some old tank water from a water change (don't use tap water) and swish the media around in that. You can add more if you like to give the beneficial bacteria more room to colonize

 

Wait whaaaat? I don't mean the biowheel, I mean the filter cartridges. They say to change them every 2-4 weeks...I'm confused!

 

I don't have experience with biowheels, but the companies say to change them that often as a marketing scheme. Usually your filter will come with a little white media bag and contains activated charcoal, this is what I'm referring to. Most people remove the charcoal from the media bag because it really isn't needed and only works for about a month before needing to be replaced. The media bag on the other hand does not need to be replaced unless falling apart, even then you can still use it to colonize new media without losing your cycle.

 

Fascinating! My filter cartridges contain activated charcoal, but what you're saying makes sense. I think someone on this thread mentioned a media bag...

I added two small bags of fluval biomedia to the open area in my filter to increase the size of the colony that could grow in my filter.

Ravenahra which biomedia...there are a few to choose from.

 

Wait whaaaat? I don't mean the biowheel, I mean the filter cartridges. They say to change them every 2-4 weeks...I'm confused!

They say that so they can sell more filter cartridges. They can be used until they are literally falling apart or water no longer flows through them freely.

If I understand you have a filter with a bio-wheel and that is never supposed to be changed out. I am sure they hold a lot of the bacteria but so does that cartridge. Back before I finally ditched the cartridges I would cut the fiber off the plastic part of the cartridge when it finally had to be replaced. I would toss the plastic and the carbon that was in there and would put that fiber in the filter housing along with the new cartridge. That fiber holds the bacteria we work so hard to cultivate.

If you have room for it go ahead and add a second cartridge. One can never have too much filter media as long as there is room for it.

Okay. How long should it take to stabilize things in the tank? Or WILL it stabilize, with that big SS goldfish in there mucking things up?

we can only guess as to how long it is going to take for this tank to stabilize but as long as you keep up with the water changes to keep the ammonia level as low as possible at least your fish (even the big guy) should be alright.

I really would stop adding the ammo-lock though. It makes the ammonia useless as food for the bacteria and just continues to let the levels climb. If this tank was cycled the ammo-lock could very well be why it isn't now. The ammo-lock locked up the ammonia so it could no longer feed the bacteria.

It was domino effect. The addition of fish overloaded the amount of bacteria this tank had. the ammonia levels rose because there wasn't enough bacteria to process all of it. I am thinking you saw the rise in ammonia and since ammo-lock is supposed to be for cases just like this. Problem is it did too good a job of locking up the ammonia and starved the bacteria and threw this tank back almost to square one. The good thing is it is fixable with water changes to get the ammo-lock out of there and allowing the bacteria to eat and grow.

I know you are having to wait until the Prime gets to you before you can start using it but hopefully you have a regular water conditioner you can use for water changes until the Prime gets to you because the very best thing you can do right now is keep up with the water changes even if it means daily to keep the levels down.

 

Ravenahra which biomedia...there are a few to choose from.

I use fluval biomax. It works really well and, with the smallest size, you can usually fit 2 in any hob filter for 20 gallons or more.

I like to keep 2 in my filter because I alternate which one I rinse out in used tank water each week. Since I only clean 1 pack each week and leave the other alone, I only mess with part of my bbs when I clean and the other stays safely in place. It's also useful if you plan on new tanks. I took out one of the packs to cycle my new tank and put a new 2nd pack in my old tank. My new tank was instantly cycled and my first tank had no issues since it still had over half of its bb.

Just throwing this out there, but I've never used prime. The only water conditioner I use is top fin and my tank cycled.

I had mollies and a bn pleco when I cycled and they're tough fish so that may be why mine came through even though I was using a lower quality water conditioner.

 

OK wow...you all have been so very supportive with the focus on fixing the problems, not on judging what I've done wrong. I really, really appreciate this, and it's different from other forums.

I've added an additional filter media to each filter that I have so that the bacteria can colonize a-go-go! Will test tomorrow and adjust if necessary.

 

I really would stop adding the ammo-lock though. It makes the ammonia useless as food for the bacteria and just continues to let the levels climb. If this tank was cycled the ammo-lock could very well be why it isn't now. The ammo-lock locked up the ammonia so it could no longer feed the bacteria.

It was domino effect. The addition of fish overloaded the amount of bacteria this tank had. the ammonia levels rose because there wasn't enough bacteria to process all of it. I am thinking you saw the rise in ammonia and since ammo-lock is supposed to be for cases just like this. Problem is it did too good a job of locking up the ammonia and starved the bacteria and threw this tank back almost to square one. The good thing is it is fixable with water changes to get the ammo-lock out of there and allowing the bacteria to eat and grow.

mattgirl thank you for this explanation. I knew things were jacked, but didn't understand the process enough to know why.

 

OK wow...you all have been so very supportive with the focus on fixing the problems, not on judging what I've done wrong. I really, really appreciate this, and it's different from other forums.

I've added an additional filter media to each filter that I have so that the bacteria can colonize a-go-go! Will test tomorrow and adjust if necessary.

Most of us have been where you are at one time or another so we try to share what we have learned the hard way.

good job on adding the extra media. It won't speed up the cycling process but will add more surface area for the bacteria to grow on.

mattgirl thank you for this explanation. I knew things were jacked, but didn't understand the process enough to know why.

you are very welcome Hopefully you are on the right track now and soon all of this will be behind you and you can get back to enjoying your fish.

 

8/22 before water change:
pH: Still low at 6.5-6.8
Ammonia: 4 ppm
Nitrite: between 0-.25 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

8/22 after water change:
pH: 7-7.2
Ammonia: 2 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: between 5-10 ppm

8/23:
pH: 7.2
Ammonia: 1.5 ppm
Nitrite: between .25-.50 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

Would you guys recommend I do another water change today, or wait until tomorrow when I have the Seachem Prime on hand?

In other news, one-half of one of my female guppies was eaten last night.

 

Yeah, I'm afraid Mr. Big Fins will be a threat to your guppies, given the size disparity.

 

I still don't understand why that place sent such an enormous fish, when the rest of my order was small fish!

 

I would be doing a water change today and tomorrow based on those readings.

 

BTW, did drop really, really low, so I'm probably at square one again...ugh.

Do the pH and ammonia test on your source (tap) water - just to make sure that you are not producing the problem through water changes.
mattgirl is spot on with all the other advice!

 

I would be doing a water change today and tomorrow based on those readings.

I agree.

 

pH of my tap water is 8.3. I haven't tested tap water ammonia yet.

 

I've added an additional filter media to each filter that I have so that the bacteria can colonize a-go-go! Will test tomorrow and adjust if necessary.

That should help. With two filters, you can alternate when you clean them -i.e. rinse in tank water. In this way you minimise the risk of loosing a cycle completely

 

So, we live in far northern Minnesota, where the nearest aquarium store is 2.5 hours away

Just a thought - you may want to look around your neighbourhood and if there is no one close by that keeps fish. Maybe you can do a swap with the goldfish so it gets a good home! A good way is through your daughter's school .
I stopped buying fish online a while back as I never got what I thought I was going to get - too big, too small, sick, damaged etc...... However I have learnt to swap with people who live around me....at least you get to see the fish first !

 

8/22 before water change:
pH: Still low at 6.5-6.8
Ammonia: 4 ppm
Nitrite: between 0-.25 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

8/22 after water change:
pH: 7-7.2
Ammonia: 2 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: between 5-10 ppm

8/23:
pH: 7.2
Ammonia: 1.5 ppm
Nitrite: between .25-.50 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

8/24:
pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 4 ppm
Nitrite: 1 ppm
Nitrate: 40 ppm

Honestly, I'm not sure how my fish are even alive at this point. SO frustrated with this.

Today, I'll be doing a 50% water change, and adding Prime to the water added back into the tank. Should I add salt to this water, too? Or will that screw things up further?

What is the optimal Prime dosage for my particular situation, i.e. FUBAR?

 

The fish you have are pretty tough fish.

I think you have some bb since the nitrates go up with the ammonia but, until you can get enough bb to deal with the ammonia, about all you can do is keep up the water changes. Which isn't fun, I know, I did several weeks of twice daily water changes.

You might want to rehome some of the fish in a new tank in order to lower the bioload, if you can. I know it would be annoying to have to deal with a second aquarium cycling but splitting the load might make it easier.

 

Lisa Gergets - hold in there.........

Lets try and focus on:

1. Getting the pH stable as pH swings are not good for fish. What I suggest you do is:
   1. put an air stone in the tank. This will get rid of the CO2 in the water and raise the pH level by 0.2-0.3
   2. Get some crushed coral in a bag and place it in your filter.
      
      Your unstable pH could be coming from you having soft water in the tap. To check the water you need to either ask your water supplier t provide you with actual data or by a GH/KH also known as alkalinity tester. This will help identify what your water actuals has in it.
2. Your source of ammonia is not only your fish, but probably your tap water. Whatever is being added to your tap water is locking the ammonia for 48 hrs and then releasing it. This can happen if your council/municipal water has chloramine in your water. If you are using an API test kit, then it will specify the sum of ammonia and ammonium (including the locked ammonia in chloramine). That is probably why you are seeing the level go up as the chloramine breaks down.
   If you do have chloramine in your tap water, you have a problem as the ammonia will release itself as prime stops working after 24hrs.......

 

I just tested my tap water - zero for ammonia! So, hey, I've got that going for me!

 

Hey guys, I just thought of something. I think I read somewhere that you should only have about an inch of substrate at the bottom of your tank. I overdid it a bit when I started this one, and I have 2-3 inches.

Is that possibly harming things?

Also, tomorrow I'd like to do a complete tank clean, including the gravel. I also think I read somewhere that until your tank is completely cycled, you shouldn't disturb the gravel. True? False?

Also, my water is a bit cloudy now. Good? Bad?

 

Based on abysmal readings this morning, I did a 50% water change, vacuumed the gravel, and added Prime in an "emergency" dosage, and 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of replaced water.

The fish certainly SEEM more lively. I'll give it overnight and do readings tomorrow morning.

 

WOOT!

pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 2 ppm
Nitrites: 0.25 ppm
Nitrates: 20 ppm

 

Sorry - I was off line for two days......overload of work.

Also, tomorrow I'd like to do a complete tank clean, including the . I also think I read somewhere that until your tank is completely cycled, you shouldn't disturb the gravel. True? False?

False. The first batch of bacteria form in your filter media. There is some in your gravel if it is course gravel, however it is secondary to your main colony in the filter. So I would prefer to keep my substrate clean rather then have it turn into a cesspit that becomes a problem afterwards.

Also, my water is a bit cloudy now. Good? Bad?

Just into your cycle you sometimes get a algae bloom. I would restrain it with water changes as when rots it also produces ammonia.

 

When/how will I know if the bioload is simply too much, and the cycle CAN'T resolve?